Shipboard Conditions

[kilemall]

I often wonder if a formulaic method for applying volume to various aspects of a ship's life support would be in order.

Say half a dTon of fresher supporter 4 people, a dTon of galley supports x number of people, Etc. etc... Alongside that Stores space, currently I use the Provisions and Life Support supplies rules from the Keith Brother Letter of Marque book from Cargonaut Press.

I've often quoted the life support volume rules from Tarsus. Doesn't take much room to do, mostly expenses.

However, since life support involves consumables, the question is how truly self-sufficient can the ship be, particularly commercial grade vessels.

Because if it was as easy as pulling in water or cycling air, then there would be a lot of costs that many ship masters would skip.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I often wonder if a formulaic method for applying volume to various aspects of a ship's life support would be in order.

Say half a dTon of fresher supporter 4 people, a dTon of galley supports x number of people, Etc. etc...

All living quarters are included in the "stateroom" space:

When allocating space within the ship for deck plans, assume that only a portion of stateroom tonnage must actually be in staterooms; the remainder should be used for common areas and other accomodations for the crew.

 

[Keklas Rekobah]

Sea Story ...

I spent two years assigned to a USNS vessel - while owned by the US Navy, it was operated by Merchant Marines. Being a senior Petty Officer meant that I had a cabin all to myself. It measured about 6 feet wide, 9 feet long, and 7 feet tall with a single bed, a desk, and a vertical locker for uniforms and survival suit. The bed had stowage space underneath (I was responsible for the inventory of spare parts and test equipment inside). The attached "fresher" measured all of 4x4x7, with commode, shower stall, and sink. Showers were the standard GI style - rinse, lather, rinse, and done - no "Hollywood" showers were allowed.

Open-bay berthing put you in a "coffin" rack with 18 inches between the top of your mattress and the bottom of the rack above you. You had a shallow locker under the mattress, in which you kept ALL of your worldly goods. Coffin racks were stacked 3 high, with 3 stacks end-to-end, and two sets of stacks across a 30-inch divide, which formed a blind "alley" - a space with only one entrance. One of my collateral duties was to assist the Chief in inspecting these spaces, the racks within them, and the non-rates who used them. Inevitable, we would find contraband, spoiled food, and "dirtbag" sailors who cycled through their skivvies without ever washing them.

The enlisted rec room had 2 TVs tied in to the ship's CCTV system - 3 channels of training films, Navy history, and whatever the snipes voted on (usually "Colors", "Boys In The Hood", and "Shaft"). "Snipes" were engine-room personnel. You didn't protest their choices, unless you wanted the entire ship to experience "Engineer Appreciation Day", in which there was no hot water, no air-conditioning (except in equipment spaces), intermittent lighting, and outlet power that varied from 80 to 160 volts so that your personal electronics either didn't work or were fried from the sudden surge of voltage.

Of course, "Engineer Appreciation Day" never affected the Chiefs' Mess or Officers' Country.

Food was good ... "Take all you want, but eat all you take" led to a lot of overweight sailors. I did my share of mess-cranking (a.k.a., "Steward-0"), and learned to enjoy it. We would look forward to Steel Beach Picnics, where each sailor was issued two cans of beer and all of the food was cooked on the fantail - burgers, hot dogs, ribs, et cetera. You could either drink your beer or give it back - there was no sharing of the beer ration (nudge-nudge) and nobody got drunk (wink-wink).

Bridge watch was a solemn affair. You reported, received the pass-down, and relieved the previous watch. The hardest part was staying awake, especially during 4 hours of radar watch.

Most of the time, it was routine. The most excitement we had was when we tried to rescue a ship that had put out a distress call, yet made every effort to not be rescued - typical of a ship that had been insured for far more than the value of the ship and its cargo. They ended up grounded on a sand bar, and all of the crew was safe.

Shipboard life was like trying to sleep on a cot in a factory that wouldn't stay still. Not bad, once you get used to it.

 

[infojunky]

I've often quoted the life support volume rules from Tarsus. Doesn't take much room to do, mostly expenses.

The Letter of Marque rules are just another step beyond those. But generally conform to the cost and volume of the original rules.

The role playing note on this is that it allows for the players to haggle and search for specific supplies if the GM and players want to. The search for new and Unique food and drink on the part of the ship's larder has been a popular side adventure over the years.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's not what I said at all.

What I said was that Travellers are a special class of people. They're the people that travel among the stars.

Most people in the 3I do not travel often or very far. They're not "Travellers". They stay on their homeworlds and/or in their home systems, for the most part.

Travelling is expensive. It costs 8,000-10,000 Credits a jump (not a journey), and when you travel, typically, the conditions are cramped. I've said before, travelling in Traveller is akin to spending $8,000 for a room on a shrimp boat for a single leg of a journey.

Compounding this is homeworld tech level and planetary conditions.

Travellers are a small part of the population.

I haven't read the full thread, but this is something that I needed reminding of. Travellers in the CT 3I (or anywhere else outside of it in known space) are the equivalent of the 1960's Jet-Setters, or in earlier decades when only the wealthy or those with resources travelled the world in cruiseliners or by expensive trans continental trains.

When I ran games and played as a player, our CT was more classic space opera in that starships, even though by the rules were extremely expensive, were still far more common than the finances of such a vessel would indicate.

So what am I saying? I'm not really sure, but those who can afford to travel were the ones who were (and are) best suited to go to places exotic and distant to deal with threats and dilemmas. I think that's kind of a classic story trope ever since Jason and the Argonauts.

 

[infojunky]

All living quarters are included in the "stateroom" space:

Yes, Kinda. If one reads all the passages in CT alone there is assumed that there is a fair amount of off books tonnage in most ships.

Also note that other editions of Traveller treat this volume differently, wander through the Accommodations sections of TNE and T5 for two prime examples.

I am not asking to change the rules so much as generating a set of guidelines for how that space is spent.

 

[Condottiere]

Volume, rather than weight.

Information can be more valuable than gold.

Or some bitcoin smuggling past the planetary firewall.

 

[kilemall]

Yes, Kinda. If one reads all the passages in CT alone there is assumed that there is a fair amount of off books tonnage in most ships.

Also note that other editions of Traveller treat this volume differently, wander through the Accommodations sections of TNE and T5 for two prime examples.

I am not asking to change the rules so much as generating a set of guidelines for how that space is spent.

Well, like I mentioned before, even among human cultures there would be those who would be very social and thus a coffin/bed, shared bathroom and socializing/eating areas would be a proper ratio, some that would want 'their' space and minimal facilities so staterooms and not much else, and some mix in-between.

Then you get into multi-species scenarios and the ratios will definitely be different, not to mention differing bathroom arrangements.

So I would expect the passenger quarters to be the most commonly modified area outside the cargo hull, often tailored for the preferences of the local population on the regular runs, and maybe a standard multi-species version that is somewhat uncomfortable to all but allows for the widest variation of potential passengers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If one reads all the passages in CT alone there is assumed that there is a fair amount of off books tonnage in most ships.

I can't remember anything in the rules, but most deck plans were rather "generous".

Also note that other editions of Traveller treat this volume differently, wander through the Accommodations sections of TNE and T5 for two prime examples.

TNE is just like CT, except half the volume?

T5 certainly complicates the issue, without any reasonable guidelines I can see.

I am not asking to change the rules so much as generating a set of guidelines for how that space is spent.

Combine the CT guideline of normally 4 Dt (minimum 2 Dt) per person with the sizes from T5?

So standard space for 8 people would be something like 32 Dt divided into 8 staterooms of 2 Dt (=16 Dt), two shared freshers à 0.5 Dt (=1 Dt), and 15 Dt common areas.

 

[aramis]

Dilbert - TNE allows passages in small sized staterooms.

High has to have a full to themselves.
Mids are allowed 2 to a full, or 1 to a small
Steers are allowed 2 to a small or 4 to a full.
Lows are 1 to a lowberth.

As for deckplans - many of Bill Kieth's used 2m or 2.5m ceilings, not the 3 specified in S7.

 

[infojunky]

I can't remember anything in the rules, but most deck plans were rather "generous".

This is a case of needing to read all of the passages on designing Deckplans across all the books that deal with the subject. Book 2, Book 5 and Traders and Gunboats are good places to start. It's in the same category as the the 20% slop and Connecting corridors are free commentary.

 

[Selandia]

I often wonder if a formulaic method for applying volume to various aspects of a ship's life support would be in order.

Say half a dTon of fresher supporter 4 people, a dTon of galley supports x number of people, Etc. etc... Alongside that Stores space, currently I use the Provisions and Life Support supplies rules from the Keith Brother Letter of Marque book from Cargonaut Press.

Go to T5 rules. Space for fresher, life support for 10/30days (multiply according to need for number aboard & extended cruise) luxury LS, provision for lounge space (As opposed to shaving common space from stateroom x passenger x 4t allocation), collective housing (barrack) and reduced "cabin" (spacer niche) alongside luxury suite and double occupancy cabin. Since the rate of passage is space/person modified, you could built whatever you want as long as you could stand the economic.

Have fun

Selandia

 

[infojunky]

Go to T5 rules.

I plan on stealing from there.

Honestly All I really want is some ballpark numbers for Galley Space. Though honestly a 2 dTon space can support 20 to 30 meals an hour of Fine Dining and two to three times that with lesser quality/choice. That is assuming a 2 person staff, so we could say a dTon per 10 High passengers the following the steward ratio.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

This is a case of needing to read all of the passages on designing Deckplans across all the books that deal with the subject.

I think you are interpreting the rules rather loosely to rationalise the oversized deck plans.

Passages and access ways which have no other use may be safely added to a ship without affecting its volume or displacement for construction purposes; such additional passages should amount to no more than an additional 10% of the total ship volume.

This is not a general license to add whatever you want off the books.

The allowed slop just means that you don't have to worry about being a few percent off here and there.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Dilbert - TNE allows passages in small sized staterooms.

Yes, so half the space compared to CT.

High has to have a full to themselves.
Mids are allowed 2 to a full, or 1 to a small
Steers are allowed 2 to a small or 4 to a full.
Lows are 1 to a lowberth.

?

Each High Passage passenger requires one stateroom (large or small). Middle Passage passengers require one stateroom (large or small) in the Regency, but are placed two to a large stateroom in the Wilds (never two to a small).

Steerage requires the passenger to travel in some small space, usually ½ ton to one ton, leftover in the cargo bay.

 

[infojunky]

I think you are interpreting the rules rather loosely to rationalise the oversized deck plans.

No, I am reading as they were meant. Which are as artistic guidelines to guide one's creativity. All one has to look at is GDW's own expression of the ethos to see them in action.

This is not a general license to add whatever you want off the books.

The allowed slop just means that you don't have to worry about being a few percent off here and there.

I refer you to my comments above.

Again my point of view is that a set of generalized guidelines for the parts of Life Support volume used for other things beyond the actual accommodation. coupled to the point that the corridor space for access to the accommodations isn't necessarily accounted for as part of the the totals considered to be the ship's volume.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

No, I am reading as they were meant.

We will apparently continue to disagree.

 

[infojunky]

We will apparently continue to disagree.

Probably.

It is probably more a thing of world view than anything else.

I am not looking for finite answer just a broad swath of guidelines similar to the design rules as written in Book 2.

 

[kilemall]

I plan on stealing from there.

Honestly All I really want is some ballpark numbers for Galley Space. Though honestly a 2 dTon space can support 20 to 30 meals an hour of Fine Dining and two to three times that with lesser quality/choice. That is assuming a 2 person staff, so we could say a dTon per 10 High passengers the following the steward ratio.

You could use the space used aboard railroad diner cars as a template, need to figure on food stowage space though since it is a week's worth of supplies, not accessible to MidPassage passengers if they get to use the prep space during off hours.

Here is an example of how you might split up the areas- MidPassage only gets access to the Lounge and Bar area, perhaps the functional equivalent of microwaves and vending machines, HighPassage gets the products of the kitchen, comfortable dining/table space, and observation dome seating.

The stateroom arrangements here might give another option - the High Passage passengers get a private bedroom with shower and access to dining, the Mid Passage passengers get what we think of as double occupancy with Pullman-style berthing and access to the lounge, but no dining or topflight meals.

Hmm, all this makes me think there could be some interesting dynamics that could be in play.

Can you have a cash bar and would it be two drink per day vouchers or a different source of revenue or unlimited per ticket or an automatic cutoff?

If the MidPassages get access to anything above a microwave, could some passengers come on board with Steward/Chef skills and earn money on the side making good meals for the other MidPassages?

Assuming some form of future travel website, would doing something extra like turning empty cargo bay into an athletic court or free bars or extra room for Mids or Highs or extra medical bays for Lows get positive DMs on drawing passengers?

 

[aramis]

Yes, so half the space compared to CT.



?

No, not half the space.

quartering Size	HP	MP	SP	LP	Crew
4Td Stateroom	1	2	4	0	2
2Td Small Stateroom	0	1	2	0	2
1Td Bunk	0	0	1	0	2
0.5Td Low Berth	0	0	0	1	1

[tc=6]Number shown is number of such passengers who may share that fitting.[/tc]

HP is the same as in CT
MP is half as much as TNE high or CT
Steerage is 1/4 as much as CT, but CT doesn't include steerage in the rules.
Low Passage is identical to CT.
Crew are allowed 2 to a fitting, but it doesn't matter which fitting size it is.