Shipboard life support and food per person per day?

[Badenov]

I realize some folks love this MRE look-a-like idea, but the idea that without a Steward folks forgot how to prep a meal just feels odd to me and breaks the verisimilitude for me. The idea that because you spend a week between ports does not seem like an excuse to pretend food cannot be stocked in the pantry. Now I am not expecting fancy 5 star meals, but do we really believe that ships cannot cook more than an MRE? Not in my setting and not on my table. What kind of ports are you docking at will make a lot of difference. Returning from a remote science station on a dead rock, then maybe SPAM and powdered eggs are on the breakfast menu. But just left a Class B or A port? Then there is no excuse for post-apocalyptic rationing of food in my opinion.

I concur. This is TL12-15 here. You guys are describing TL7 MREs. This is at least as far past TL7 as TL7 is from TL2. Maybe it's a bit sketchier or lower quality on TL9-11, but .. this:

Esp when we already have food printers now. IMTU they load containers of "raws" and it prints them. Maybe an intmediate stage where there are vat grown steaks, packaged and frozen.

Steward is also the Purser, so they direct the crew in serving, usually senior NCO's serving. Drawn from this tradition:

A chief steward is the senior crew member working in the steward's department of a ship. Since there is no purser on most ships in the United States Merchant Marine, the steward is the senior person in the department, whence its name.

Chief steward - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[whartung]

I realize some folks love this MRE look-a-like idea, but the idea that without a Steward folks forgot how to prep a meal just feels odd to me and breaks the verisimilitude for me. The idea that because you spend a week between ports does not seem like an excuse to pretend food cannot be stocked in the pantry. Now I am not expecting fancy 5 star meals, but do we really believe that ships cannot cook more than an MRE? Not in my setting and not on my table. What kind of ports are you docking at will make a lot of difference. Returning from a remote science station on a dead rock, then maybe SPAM and powdered eggs are on the breakfast menu. But just left a Class B or A port? Then there is no excuse for post-apocalyptic rationing of food in my opinion.

Indeed.

Remember, odds are that the BULK of the crews meals are on board. This isn't transitional food. Being in port is the exception, not the rule.

Similarly, even remote outposts should have decent food. Save for the edgiest of edge cases, outposts should be in constant supply from the "outside". Anyone else here grow up with a family that would purchase a quarter or side of beef once or twice a year, freeze it solid, and live off it in the interim? I didn't, but I knew folks who did. It was a normal transaction at the local butcher.

You don't need weekly shipments, monthly would be fine. Yea, fresh fruit would be a luxury, but ideally someone local is trying to take steps to fill that gap. And who doesn't like a can of peaches!

MREs are emergency rations, not day to day.

 

[spank]

Indeed.

Remember, odds are that the BULK of the crews meals are on board. This isn't transitional food. Being in port is the exception, not the rule.

Similarly, even remote outposts should have decent food. Save for the edgiest of edge cases, outposts should be in constant supply from the "outside". Anyone else here grow up with a family that would purchase a quarter or side of beef once or twice a year, freeze it solid, and live off it in the interim? I didn't, but I knew folks who did. It was a normal transaction at the local butcher.

You don't need weekly shipments, monthly would be fine. Yea, fresh fruit would be a luxury, but ideally someone local is trying to take steps to fill that gap. And who doesn't like a can of peaches!

MREs are emergency rations, not day to day.

Part of the problem is that there isn't a "fast class" à la Dumarest. In these case the problem isn't that you've "forgot how to eat" it's that you are moving a a different speed than the rest of the universe, and a steward is required to tend to you, and make sure you don't have problems. for example, making sure that your food stays warm and clean. An example from the novels is that your drink will get cold from the time you pour it to the time you lift it to your lips.

As far a life support, I 100% think the costs are wrong. A while back someone asked about emergency life support and I calculated that a single 55 gallon drum of LOX would supply a person for more than 6 months. You could allot 1 drum for 5 people for a month with safety margin, 10 people for 2 weeks, Food, water, ETC would likewise be very easy to pack onboard. The only question is how to deal with CO2, but that's low tech stuff. Apollo was limited in part by the Lithium Hydroxide canisters, each of which was good for approximately 1.5 man-days. 100 of these canisters would take up ~ 1/9th of a dTon, and have more than enough capacity for a free trader full of passengers to making a trip. And that's with the most basic technologies. By the time of Skylab they were into regenerative CO2 scrubbers.

Which is to say that the ship should most likely be fitted with regenerative CO2 Scrubbers, most likely something far in advance of the Sabatier or Bosch process. And it should be good for months, if not years. Life support cost should be low enough that they can be hand waved. At the most there should be a one-time cost to buy a life support system. Any CO2 can be scrubbed, and any lost oxygen can be replaced either from LOX or via electrolysis.

 

[spank]

I forgot to attach this:
From a NASA report showing life support requirements.

 

[Rupert]

The reason food for the crew and the middle passengers won't be flash is that there's nobody doing food prep as their job unless the ship has a large crew. It's 'do your own' or rostered and fitted in between the crew members' other duties. So aside from the odd desert that's ice cream and tinned fruit, and some fresh fruit and basic veg for the first couple of days out of port it'll be frozen and retort meals. They'll be better than MRE grade because they won't have to stay good for as long and because they can be custom selected and so can have a wider range of flavours and stronger flavours. But they'll still not compare to meals made by a full-time steward/cook (assuming they're competent).

And no, 3D printing won't miraculously fix this. The base ingredients still have to be preserved, the flavouring has to be added, the thing has to be printed (and that limits just what you can use as a foundation). Most 3D printed foods will look nice, but aside from dishes with simple flavour profiles they'll be pretty lacking in quality of flavour for a *lot* of TLs. Again, if you can afford a real cook, that'll get you better tasting food.

 

[Condottiere]

This is where the Zhodani are superior.

Everyone is convinced the meals they are eating onboard are great, and somehow remind them of those that their mother used to serve.

 

[Spinward Flow]

the idea that without a Steward folks forgot how to prep a meal just feels odd to me and breaks the verisimilitude for me.

It's not a matter of "forgot" so much as a matter of baseline skill level. For the purposes of our conversation, "anyone" can prepare what amounts to "spacer food" (zero-g consumption optional) from what are functionally the equivalent to MRE packs (it's that type of food tech). Just like how "anyone" can follow the instructions on frozen microwave dinners to prepare them for eating.

But if you want something akin to a chef who can cook meals from scratch given a variety of foodstuffs to start with ... for THAT kind of kitchen skill, you need to have Steward-1+ skill.

The difference is the Quality Of Life experience between the two options.
Everyone knows how to "cook" frozen dinners or "just add hot water" cup ramen (for example).
But not everyone will know their way around a kitchen/galley well enough to "whip up a feast" from whatever ingredients are on hand at any given time, using a cooktop stove, oven and sink for washing food in water to prepare it. There are SKILLS involved in various aspects of "home cooking" that are incorporated into the Steward skill (which also includes customer service and management into the mix).

Which is to say that the ship should most likely be fitted with regenerative CO2 Scrubbers, most likely something far in advance of the Sabatier or Bosch process. And it should be good for months, if not years. Life support cost should be low enough that they can be hand waved. At the most there should be a one-time cost to buy a life support system. Any CO2 can be scrubbed, and any lost oxygen can be replaced either from LOX or via electrolysis.

My personal interpretation is that the stock and standard 4 ton stateroom (MCr0.5 base construction cost) has integrated into it sufficient "life support capacity" for 4 person/weeks of endurance (just like how power plants have a minimum requirement of 4 weeks of power plant fuel endurance). This 4 person/weeks per stateroom life support capacity is what makes it possible for double occupancy (2 people = 2 weeks life support endurance).

However, that life support reserve built into staterooms as a baseline component of their construction cost (tonnage and Cr) is for consumables ... which need to be recharged (typically at starports). That's where the Cr2000 per person per 2 weeks life support overhead expense comes from. If you've got single occupancy staterooms (which SHOULD be the norm for commercial craft, only military craft should be "allowed" to get away with double occupancy for enlisted crew while officers should be single occupancy staterooms), then a single occupancy stateroom only needs to "pay" for life support consumables recharges every 2 jumps (effectively), rather than after every 1 jump. That way, if "life support resupply" prices are unusually high at a particular location (for whatever reason), you can "skip" topping up there and simply "wait for the next starport" to do a full resupply.



If you want truly regenerative life support ... that is good for "basically a year" (between annual overhaul cycles) ... which allows you to hand wave the life support recharge expenses in a way that functions as a one-time (construction and annual overhaul maintenance) cost to buy a life support system ... ... might I interest you in my homebrewed Regenerative Life Support Biome rules for starships combined with wilderness refueling and a fuel purification plant to provide the "waste chemistry feedstocks" needed to keep the "biome labs" running between annual overhaul maintenance cycles (along with the increased crew skills requirement, of course)?

 

[spank]

The sabatier reaction that the ISS uses needs only water as an input. The water is electroylzed into H2 and O2. The carbon dioxide is captured from the air, then transfered to the sabatier reactor where 4 H2 + CO2 become CH4 + 2 H2O.
The methane then is vented.
They are currently testing an enhancement that uses pyrolysis that cracks the methane into H2 and C2H2 the H2 is kept and run thru the reaction again.
This sort of technology would function quite well on a starship, and they'd have plenty of H2 to feed the reactor. No electrolysis necessary.
This sort of regenerative life support, with little to no expendables is viable at TL 7.

 

[Enoki]

It's not a matter of "forgot" so much as a matter of baseline skill level. For the purposes of our conversation, "anyone" can prepare what amounts to "spacer food" (zero-g consumption optional) from what are functionally the equivalent to MRE packs (it's that type of food tech). Just like how "anyone" can follow the instructions on frozen microwave dinners to prepare them for eating.

But if you want something akin to a chef who can cook meals from scratch given a variety of foodstuffs to start with ... for THAT kind of kitchen skill, you need to have Steward-1+ skill.

The difference is the Quality Of Life experience between the two options.
Everyone knows how to "cook" frozen dinners or "just add hot water" cup ramen (for example).
But not everyone will know their way around a kitchen/galley well enough to "whip up a feast" from whatever ingredients are on hand at any given time, using a cooktop stove, oven and sink for washing food in water to prepare it. There are SKILLS involved in various aspects of "home cooking" that are incorporated into the Steward skill (which also includes customer service and management into the mix).

That's how I've always seen it. Everybody has a skill level sufficient to open a can of food or the equivalent of an MRE and heat it up if necessary in something like a microwave. Actual cooking using raw ingredients and following a recipe requires the steward skill. If you are running a merchant ship with high passage cabins (I have mid and low ones too unlike canon rules along with the cryo low berths) you better have a steward on hand to make meals for the paying passengers. The middies can make due with the equivalent of decent TV dinners, while low berth passengers get something like an MRE and a communal microwave.
The high berth ones also get to dine at a nice table with napkins and decoration, have access to a wet bar, etc. You're paying for first class service so you expect that.

My personal interpretation is that the stock and standard 4 ton stateroom (MCr0.5 base construction cost) has integrated into it sufficient "life support capacity" for 4 person/weeks of endurance (just like how power plants have a minimum requirement of 4 weeks of power plant fuel endurance). This 4 person/weeks per stateroom life support capacity is what makes it possible for double occupancy (2 people = 2 weeks life support endurance).

However, that life support reserve built into staterooms as a baseline component of their construction cost (tonnage and Cr) is for consumables ... which need to be recharged (typically at starports). That's where the Cr2000 per person per 2 weeks life support overhead expense comes from. If you've got single occupancy staterooms (which SHOULD be the norm for commercial craft, only military craft should be "allowed" to get away with double occupancy for enlisted crew while officers should be single occupancy staterooms), then a single occupancy stateroom only needs to "pay" for life support consumables recharges every 2 jumps (effectively), rather than after every 1 jump. That way, if "life support resupply" prices are unusually high at a particular location (for whatever reason), you can "skip" topping up there and simply "wait for the next starport" to do a full resupply.



If you want truly regenerative life support ... that is good for "basically a year" (between annual overhaul cycles) ... which allows you to hand wave the life support recharge expenses in a way that functions as a one-time (construction and annual overhaul maintenance) cost to buy a life support system ... ... might I interest you in my homebrewed Regenerative Life Support Biome rules for starships combined with wilderness refueling and a fuel purification plant to provide the "waste chemistry feedstocks" needed to keep the "biome labs" running between annual overhaul maintenance cycles (along with the increased crew skills requirement, of course)?

I see this differently. It's pretty easy to recycle the air and water on a ship much like say on a submarine today. You can pack the passengers in. The cabin occupancy is based on what you are paying for thus:

High passage: Single or double occupancy much like a upscale cabin on a cruise ship today. The cash you are plunking down is for meals, liquor, personal service by the crew, etc.

Mid passage: Double occupancy in a smaller cabin with few amenities. You get decent food and somebody from the crew is around like a couple times a day to check on things.

Low passage: You are in a bunkroom with 3 to 5 other people. There may be a sink and toilet, or those may be communal to several cabins in a separate space. You get a meal package like twice a day, and you are on your on as to how to make it edible.

Mid and low passage food stocks are kept in lockers, some possibly refrigerated for the middies. The steward / crew simply pulls the required number, heats them up where needed and hands them out, or does things buffet style.

Plop! Dinner is served! Help yer selves!

The middies have a common area where some folding tables are set up, and there are folding chairs or the like--or maybe mats to sit on the floor Japanese-style--to enjoy your repast.

The low passengers can sit on their bunk and eat their pre-packaged slop however they can.

Military ships are similar but more cramped.

The highest ranked officers on a ship get a spacious single cabin and even a separate office.
High ranking officers (0-4 and up) get a single cabin like a mid passage one in size.
Junior officers are 2 or 3 to a cabin, again roughly mid passage size.
Senior enlisted (E-6/7 and up) are 2 to 4 to a cabin that is like a large bunkroom. The bathrooms are communal but separate from the crew ones.
Junior enlisted are given a bunk somewhere. All bathrooms for them are communal

All meals and such are communal except for the highest ranked officers. There's a wardroom for the officers who get served by rank. The senior enlisted have a smaller separate cabin for their meals and to relax in. The crew finds some open space and meals are served there by selected members who pick it up from the galley.

 

[whartung]

The reason food for the crew and the middle passengers won't be flash is that there's nobody doing food prep as their job unless the ship has a large crew.

Define "large crew".

There WILL be someone tasked with the kitchen. The pilot, the engineer, the medic, the gunner. Somebody is going to do the cooking. Anyone with a family knows how much more efficient meals are when they're made for everybody.

Whoever that person is, may well just fall into that job. "We tried to let Frank cook and the best was can say is that we didn't space Frank. But he's not cooking anymore."

There's a scene in the movie Ronin (where a crew of 5 are working to steal something), and they're holed up in a hotel room. The wheelman is seen donning an apron and cooking meals. Somehow he got the job.

People need to eat, and they don't like eating crummy food.

And in space flight there is a LOT of down time.

They're not going to sit around eating Space Food Sticks.

Someone is cooking.

 

[Grav_Moped]

My expectation will be, that meals would be in aluminum type foils, and you'll pop it in a small cooker that heats it up, not necessarily a full microwave, or steamer.

Stews, will likely be powdered.

I'm ok with both extremes. Your tramp trader's crew might not want to bother cooking anything special for the few ride-alongs they're having to deal with -- but yeah, just 'cause you live in a jump-capable box for years on end doesn't mean you forgot how to cook and appreciate good food.

 

[coliver988]

and don't forget that the lab ship in Death Station has a walk-in freezer. that is a 400 ton ship:

37. Kitchen and Storage. This area is dark, and the lighting fixtures have been smashed. This room is a food preparation area; facilities are available for cooking both large and small meals. To the rear of the room is a large frozen food locker; inside, on hooks, ...

 

[Grav_Moped]

This is where the Zhodani are superior.

Everyone is convinced the meals they are eating onboard are great, and somehow remind them of those that their mother used to serve.

Thing is, the cook  knows what each crew member really likes, and also knows how well-received the meals are -- and why. (You aren't getting away with hiding the xeno-brusselsprouts under the synthetic potatoes, either.)

Also, that thing where some people perceive cilantro as tasting like soap? That gets packed up on right quick, and worked around.

Edits: autocorrect glitches, and cilantro.

 

[Condottiere]

I think that cooking in general, now and then, is a matter of convenience.

If it's convenient to spend time making meals, and you have one or more people happy to do so, you'll get a home cooked meal.

It it's not, the choice is likely to be something that doesn't take long to prepare, and/or requires much attention.

Quality will reflect cost, resources, and/or labour spent on the meal.

 

[kilemall]

I think that cooking in general, now and then, is a matter of convenience.

If it's convenient to spend time making meals, and you have one or more people happy to do so, you'll get a home cooked meal.

It it's not, the choice is likely to be something that doesn't take long to prepare, and/or requires much attention.

Quality will reflect cost, resources, and/or labour spent on the meal.

For 2000 credits more better be good meals, clean sheets and a mint on the pillow.

 

[Condottiere]

At ten thousand greenbux, I kinda suspect there may be a personal touch.

 

[coliver988]

For 2000 credits more better be good meals, clean sheets and a mint on the pillow.

When T5 came out (and there is a thread somewhere here) I did use food printers, and there is a custom mint/chocolate food printer based on the passenger's taste on the pillow each night for high passage. A bowl in the commons for the rest.

 

[Enoki]

For 2000 credits more better be good meals, clean sheets and a mint on the pillow.

Exactly. High berth, you get all the little extras. Low berth, it might be better to bring your own food for the trip, but nobody's saying you have to. You'll get something twice a day that'll fill you up if you can keep it down...

I also provide a laundry service for high berths. The middies can use it if they want to pay cash for the service.

 

[Rupert]

Define "large crew".

Large enough that the rules say they need a steward.

 

[casquilho]

It's not a matter of "forgot" so much as a matter of baseline skill level. For the purposes of our conversation, "anyone" can prepare what amounts to "spacer food" (zero-g consumption optional) from what are functionally the equivalent to MRE packs (it's that type of food tech). Just like how "anyone" can follow the instructions on frozen microwave dinners to prepare them for eating.

But if you want something akin to a chef who can cook meals from scratch given a variety of foodstuffs to start with ... for THAT kind of kitchen skill, you need to have Steward-1+ skill.

The difference is the Quality Of Life experience between the two options.
Everyone knows how to "cook" frozen dinners or "just add hot water" cup ramen (for example).
But not everyone will know their way around a kitchen/galley well enough to "whip up a feast" from whatever ingredients are on hand at any given time, using a cooktop stove, oven and sink for washing food in water to prepare it. There are SKILLS involved in various aspects of "home cooking" that are incorporated into the Steward skill (which also includes customer service and management into the mix).

We will just have to agree to disagree. Steward skill is not a requirement to know how to cook a meal beyond microwave or MRE. I make lots of stuff from scratch, but I do not believe I could serve as a Steward on a cruise ship. Further, the idea you can only cook with what is found in the galley rather than stock the galley between jumps just also seems odd to me. But that is my view. It is my movie in my head.

But I get it, for you, the movie in your head has the crew eating MREs for weeks on end. If it works for you, great. We each must enjoy the movie in our heads. I respect that.