GURPS has rules regarding total passengers along with total freight per world based upon population values. Rereading GURPS traveller starlings has me discovering that maintenance doesn't require shipyard modules, but "scaffolding" set up in an ordinary berth. Like anything else, contradictions can be found here or there or vague wordings leaves wiggle room in interpretation.
Shipyard Production
- Thread starter Garnfellow
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AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Flows both between systems and intra-system?
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Strictly between systems I'm afraid. In addition, the inner system trade transportation costs are a mere fraction of what starship transportation (per dton of space) costs.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Just means the fuel game is dominated by those who can self-finance and thus cut the cost per ton nearly in half, or government subsidized necessary business.
Which might explain part of the cost of a system trying to upgrade their starport facility quality.
Of course, a planet pulling from it's own oceans won't have these issues.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Self financed does not mean free. If your shareholders give you a few billion to play with they expect to get their money back plus a few billion profit to motivate the risk. For most companies that is more expensive than loaning the money.
Yes, that is much cheaper.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
In a reasonable market risk money, from the shareholders, expect higher returns than the comparatively safe bank interest rates.
Corporations exist to make money, accepting lower returns would be illegal. Making bad decisions on the other hand is always legal.
But the Imperial economy might work differently.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Your distinction is lost on me.
The starship bond/bank mortgage market would be higher returns/higher risk, fuel milk runs for investors that buy without external financing and likely government assistance would be lower risk but not as good a return either.
That's not an illegality, it's a choice of business plan/investment.
Corporate boards of directors for for-profit corporations can be sued by shareholders for failure to seek profits in many countries. The US and UK amongst them.
It's not a criminal act for a corporation to accept lower profits, but it is a civilly actionable course if the corporate goals are profit.
Not all corporations are for-profit.
Any detailed discussions of this probably should move into the pit.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
IANAL. As far as I know it works differently in my jurisdiction. Either way it is probably irrelevant to the Imperium, so it was unnecessary for me to bring it up.
In the US, its federally actionable. Not criminal, but definitely grounds for suit. Most states also specifically allow it. It's part of the common law tradition. It's rarely used - it requires showing a jury that the board intentionally took actions that deprived other investors of the profit share they should have received.
I would expect the imperial system to have a similar profit-imperative action cause.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Is that profit share in terms of 'their cut', or a business plan that is less aggressive or functional then the h-fuel shareholders believe should be pursued?
I would think the latter would have to apply for choosing a less risky/rewarding investment.
It's one of those grey areas... I've seen suits for failing to sell out to a competitor (when the buy-out offer was worth more than 2x the market value of the shares), and when taking a loss intentionally (such as settling for more than a judgement could award, simply to get it out of the press). IANAL, I'm a historian... and I've worked with historical documents of such suits in the National Archives. The suits in question were between 1880 and 1910, in the 3rd Judicial District of the Territory of Alaska... which is how I know they were federally actionable. No local courts existed!
I quite disagree with your numbers, if you can buy your ship without a mortgage.
I also see your opperating costs quite high:
Maintenance is clearly 1/1000 of the cost, and I see you crew costs quite overstimate.
A crewmwmber costs you Cr 4000 per month (4 weeks, so 13 months a year) in life support plus salary. Let's say an average of Cr 130000 a year (10000 a month).
So, with a maintenance cost of MCr 4 in the M-3 ship, to reach you MCr 100 opearating cost, you'd need about 740 crewmembers, quite a high number for a 10000 dton ship...
This ship would have 1700 dtons of drives, so it would need 17 engineers. Add to this 5 command staff and 30 maintenance and we come to 52 crewmembers. This would cost you about Mcr 6.76 (let's say 7) per year, added to the Mcr 4 for maintenance we have about MCr 11 a year for operating costs.
If you have the initial money by selling shares (let's say 4000 MCr shares), your opperating costs are you only annual expenses. If you can bring to the starport (according your numbers) about 400 000 fuel dtons a year, your income would be MCr 40 is unrefined or 200 if refined (if your ships have fuel processors you have the time to refine it in the return trip).
So, your yearly balance would be about MCr 29 if the fuel is unrefined or MCr 189 if refined. If you pay it as dividends, it eould be about 7000 Cr per action and year if unrefined and about Cr 47000 per action if refined, so about a 0.7% return of your investment in the first case and about a 4.7% in the second one. I don't see this business as broken...
And in the case of the M-1 ship you said, with only 500 dtons of drives, you need only 5 engineers, so your crew is down to 40 members (about MCr 5.2 per year) and your maintenance only MCr 1.7, so let's say about MCr 7 yearly opperating costs.
The initial cost is Mcr 1700, so let's say 1700 1Mcr shares.
If it brings 230 000 dtons of fuel, its income would be about 23 million if unrefined and about 115 if refined
With profits of Mcr 16 and 108 respectively, the dividends could be about Cr 9000 and 63000 per annum (so a yearly return of 0.9% or 6.3%) respectivelly.
Again, no broken company...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
This is an excellent post because it also brings to mind how megacorporations can afford to run jump 3 and 4 ships - they don't pay mortgage cost.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
That was a very rough estimate. I can try to do better...
I generally try to overestimate costs, to account for Murphy.
Capital is never free. Someone wants their money back, whether it is a private owner, shareholders, or the bank. The mortgage cost is a handy estimate.
Start with the craft. 10000 dT, M-1, 8300 dT fuel, purifier, 47 crew, MCr 1937.
We can do 27 round-trips per year, collecting 224 000 dT refined fuel per year.
I will start by assuming a mortgage. The downpayment is MCr 407.
Yearly mortgage payment is 12 × MCr 8.07 ≈ MCr 97.
Fuel is free, since we skim.
Life Support 50 / 2 × kCr 2 × 47 ≈ MCr 2.35
Salaries: 47 × 12 × kCr 3 × 300% ≈ MCr 5
Maintenenace: ~MCr 2
Total yearly costs: 97 + 2 + 5 + 2 ≈ MCr 106
The downpayment also has to be replaced, so we can buy a new ship after 40 years. Using the same capital cost as the mortgage we need to reserve MCr 407 / 40 × 2 ≈ MCr 20 per year.
So we have to earn MCr 126 per year, so on 224000 dT fuel, or Cr 562 / dT refined fuel. Without any profit or margin for error.
In order to sell to consumers we also have to have a retail operation, like a gas station, with tanks, pumps, rent for space, and more staff.
I would be amazed if we can sell the fuel for less than Cr 750 / dT and still make a decent profit.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Don't use a mortgage to buy your ship.
During the age of sail investors would cough up the cash to buy a ship/ships, crew and provision them, and then get a return on their investment by selling the goods they bring back.
Risky? Yes, but an awful lot of people became very, very rich by doing it - others went to the wall. The rich could then outfit future expeditions from their profits and make yet more money.
This, in my view, is how the megacorps and Imperial nobles made their money, and the reason that the economy of the Imperium as a whole can be subdued. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
A wealthy middle class threatens the ruling class - why do you think Oberlindes lines has such a hard time with Tukera and the Imperium turns a blind eye?
Worse than turn a blind eye the Impies have actually blown up at least one Oberlindes ship - the Bloodwell - due to 'transponder irregularities' (my current campaign is in the early days of telling the true story behind all that
)
During the age of sail investors would cough up the cash to buy a ship/ships, crew and provision them, and then get a return on their investment by selling the goods they bring back.
Risky? Yes, but an awful lot of people became very, very rich by doing it - others went to the wall. The rich could then outfit future expeditions from their profits and make yet more money.
This, in my view, is how the megacorps and Imperial nobles made their money, and the reason that the economy of the Imperium as a whole can be subdued. The rich get richer and the poor stay poor.
A wealthy middle class threatens the ruling class - why do you think Oberlindes lines has such a hard time with Tukera and the Imperium turns a blind eye?
Worse than turn a blind eye the Impies have actually blown up at least one Oberlindes ship - the Bloodwell - due to 'transponder irregularities' (my current campaign is in the early days of telling the true story behind all that
)AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
Or we can try financing from the stock market.
We issue MCr 2000 in stock. We buy a ship for MCr 1955. It takes 3 years to build, so we lose money for three years without any income.
Yearly costs:
Fuel is free, since we skim.
Life Support 50 / 2 × kCr 2 × 47 ≈ MCr 2.35
Salaries: 47 × 12 × kCr 3 × 300% ≈ MCr 5
Maintenenace: ~MCr 2
Total yearly costs: 2 + 5 + 2 ≈ MCr 10
In a going concern, we have to save some money to buy a new ship when the old one is worn, say after 40 years (aka depreciation). MCr 1955 / 40 ≈ MCr 49 / year.
The shareholders expect some dividends, say 5% or MCr 2000 × 5% ≈ MCr 100.
So we need to earn MCr 10 + 49 + 100 ≈ MCr 159 / year. Divided by 224000 dT that is Cr 709 / dT refined fuel.
The retail operation is in addition to this. Again we cannot sell refined fuel for Cr 500 to consumers.
If you "find" a free ship, or a few billion credits behind the sofa cushions, you can do it cheaper, but you would probably be better off lending the money to a bank.
We issue MCr 2000 in stock. We buy a ship for MCr 1955. It takes 3 years to build, so we lose money for three years without any income.
Yearly costs:
Fuel is free, since we skim.
Life Support 50 / 2 × kCr 2 × 47 ≈ MCr 2.35
Salaries: 47 × 12 × kCr 3 × 300% ≈ MCr 5
Maintenenace: ~MCr 2
Total yearly costs: 2 + 5 + 2 ≈ MCr 10
In a going concern, we have to save some money to buy a new ship when the old one is worn, say after 40 years (aka depreciation). MCr 1955 / 40 ≈ MCr 49 / year.
The shareholders expect some dividends, say 5% or MCr 2000 × 5% ≈ MCr 100.
So we need to earn MCr 10 + 49 + 100 ≈ MCr 159 / year. Divided by 224000 dT that is Cr 709 / dT refined fuel.
The retail operation is in addition to this. Again we cannot sell refined fuel for Cr 500 to consumers.
If you "find" a free ship, or a few billion credits behind the sofa cushions, you can do it cheaper, but you would probably be better off lending the money to a bank.
AnotherDilbert
SOC-14 1K
TINSTAAFL. Money does not grow on trees, money is not free.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Actually money does grow on trees, and on bushes and in fields.
Landownership used to be the greatest generator of wealth either by selling produce or just renting the land to tenants.
You could then risk your wealth investing it in wild schemes like mines, ironworks, canal networks, trade missions to distant lands.
Get lucky and you make more money than you put in, otherwise you may have to sell a daughter or two... sorry, find a wealthy suitor.
Landownership used to be the greatest generator of wealth either by selling produce or just renting the land to tenants.
You could then risk your wealth investing it in wild schemes like mines, ironworks, canal networks, trade missions to distant lands.
Get lucky and you make more money than you put in, otherwise you may have to sell a daughter or two... sorry, find a wealthy suitor.
