Skill Improvement and "Experience"

[DickNervous]

As we all know Traveller is different from most other RPGs in that you do not gain "experience" as you adventure, nor do you improve your skills simply from use. While this is one of the things that I love about the game, it is also something that I feel could use some tweaking. And since I am about to start a new campaign with a group of players who are all new to Traveller I thought it would be a good time to come up with some ideas.

I started with researching the topic on the web and have seen several different takes on the topic that range from "it can't be done, you are stuck with what you muster out with" to "give the players what they want every few (units of time)". I do know that in at least one version of Traveller there was an option for a character to go back to school and learn a non-combat skill at level 2 for 70,000 credits and 4 years, which is a good option for characters who are younger, but not so much for the older ones.

So I have come up with a system that takes several ideas I read about and kinda mushes them up and I thought I would share with the folks here and get some opinions on it.

This is for improving non-combat skills through usage, not going to school or stuff like that. So there are three steps:

1. Use the skill
2. Find a trainer
3. Hire the trainer and train

Simple enough, right? So this is how it will work:

Use the Skill: When a player makes a skill check and rolls a natural 12, they add a tick mark to their character sheet by that skill. It represents them performing a task at such a high level that they have learned something new about the skill. Once they have acquired enough tick marks they can search for a trainer. You calculate how many you need by multiplying the level you want to attain *2 + 1. For instance, to go to level 2 of a skill you would need 5 tick marks.

Find a Trainer: This will take time, money, and some luck. Once a character has enough tick marks to train they must search for a trainer. They can search only once per planet/system. The search will take 2 days plus the number of tick marks they needed. So to search for a level 2 trainer will take 7 days. It will also cost 1,000cr per day. The difficulty to find the trainer starts at 8 and has the following modifiers:

Level 0 - Easy Task (+4)
Level 1 - Routine (+2)
Level 2 - Average (+0)
Level 3 - Difficult (-2)
Level 4 - Very Difficult (-4)
Level 5 - Formidable (-6)

The referee will add modifiers as well based upon the size, population, tech level, and law level of the world and the skill. For example, a high population world, high tech world may have a modifier of +4 when trying to find a Level 3 or 4 Computers trainer. Basically use common sense.

Training: Once a trainer has been found it is time to pay up. Training costs and time will be dependent upon the level, but will have a minimum of 30,000cr and 1 month (for level 0 basically). You will add (2x the level + 1d6 per level) * 1,000cr to the base cost of 30,000 and that many additional weeks to the 1 month minimum.

Example: Joe has Mechanic-2 and wants to get to level 3. He has 7 tick marks and is ready to search for a trainer. The search will cost him 9,000cr and take 9 days. There is a -2 DM on the roll for the level, but he is on a high population (B), high tech (C) world so we will give him a +4 on the roll, so he needs a 6. He makes the roll and finds a trainer. He rolls 3d6 and gets a 10. So the training will cost him 30,000 + 6,000 + 10,000 = 46,000 and take him 14 weeks (4 week min + 10 weeks).

So the total is 54k and almost 4 months to increase his skill from 2 to 3 *after* he collects 7 natural 12 rolls.

------------------------------------
Some things that might get adjusted are how often the XP is rewarded. If it is too much I may put the requirement that the check needs to be "difficult" or harder and a natural 12 to get one.

I was also thinking of doing something similar with combat skills but making the required number of XP marks 4x the level or more. Not sure about that since there are plenty or ways to improve your weapons.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, tweaks, etc to my idea? I know it is similar to something that another user here (I think Supplement Four) posted in the Classic Traveller forums and that was the inspiration to get me going on this path.

Thanks!

 

[PsiTraveller]

Looking at page 59 of the Core book makes it a little easier to learn new skills.

If I amr eading it correctly you total up your skill levels in all your skills.
To improve a skill from one level to the next your base time in weeks is your base score, plus the number of weeks for the new skill. If your skill total was 3 and you wanted to raise a skill from 2 to 3 it would take 6 weeks.

Learning a skill at level 0 is not covered, so your Training system is an interesting option. The cost seems really high though. It would be worth it in Player terms to take a year and live on their mustering out cash and work at a job, or train in an academy to get a skill level to 0.

Once you have a skill at level 0 it would pay to spend a couple of months training it to get it to Level 1, and a couple more to get it to level 2 using the system from the book.

It strikes me as a means of income for better trained characters, in down time sections, to offer to train/tutor other people to improve skills. It also makes it an attractive option to train in and get tutored to improve a skill if you can spend the time.

Page 51 of the book shows that the level 0 Skill is competency and training in a skill. Each level above that represents years of experience, so my training for a few months seems to be skewing the results, even if it is RAW on pg 59.

 

[salochin999]

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, tweaks, etc to my idea?

If a character serves one term in the Merchants and gets Steward-1 then what is the difference between serving another term in the Merchants and getting Mechanics-1 or mustering out and working on a Free Trader assisting the engineer and getting Mechanics-1? Adventuring is simply another career.

On the other hand one of the good things with default Traveller is it doesn't turn into a game of playing character sheet bingo.

So (imo) one term characters should be able to catch up to other players eventually but the total skills shouldn't go on until every player has the same A4 page of skills. A Traveller character should fit on an index card imo.

http://blog.johnspence.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/3-x-5-card.jpg

So what i do is

#

1) Max total skill ranks is sum of two highest stats (so a 777777 could have a total of 14 skill ranks).

(It says something about this in the rules somewhere but I forget where and don't recall which stats the rules use.)

2) At the end of each adventure players can add a skill rank to an existing skill or start a new skill (at skill-0) if
- they used it on the adventure
- they could learn it from one of the other players
- they could conceivably practice it during the downtime between adventures

3) Alternatively they can add EDU+1 (needed before learning some skills)

4) If they hit their limit then they have to unlearn a rank before adding a new one.

5) Aging can reduce the limit. Cybernetics etc can increase it. (edit: by decreasing or increasing physical stats)

6) On top of the above I sometimes add that players can pick a downtime hobby that buffs by 1
e.g.
boxing -> Str+1, Brawling+1
running -> Str+1, End+1
fencing -> Dex+1, Fencing+1
chess -> Int+1, Tactics+1

This isn't permanent, just while it is their hobby - changeable at downtime between adventures.

#

This way allows Scottie to get stranded on a jungle planet and his

Engineering-4, Mechanics-3 Electronics-3 Admin-2 Leadership-2

to gradually turn into

Survival-3 Elephant Riding-2 Brawling-2 Spear-2 Vine Swinging-2 Yodeling-2

 

[Spinward Scout]

Then there's something like this:

ROCKSMITH

Rocksmith is a real-life virtual trainer for guitar. In real-life, I probably have a skill of Art (Guitar)-0 - just the very basics and enough to do a tune or two. If I follow the directions for using Rocksmith, practicing 1 hour a day, after 60 days (8 weeks, give or take), I could be looking at Art (Guitar)-1 or maybe even Art (Guitar)-2, from what I've read about it. That is probably the future of teaching, right there.

How would a virtual trainer work in Traveller skill improvement?

And we're supposedly now at TL-8 or so. How would that improve to TL-12 or higher? Then you could be looking at Sleep Learning and different technologies adding to the skill improvements and reducing training time.

 

[Timerover51]

My take is that if a player uses a skill successfully, and shows some creativity in using it, like if someone with Mechanic skill from a Tech Level 9 planet successfully repairs a Tech Level 4 steam engine, or someone with Explosives skill successfully improvises some shaped-charged, command-detonated mines set up in an embankment to take out several of the attacking opposition armored vehicles, I might be inclined to bump up his/her/its skill level by 1 for exceptional competency.

Otherwise, looking at page 50, under Effect, if the player manages several "exceptional success", assuming that you take the time to do the die rolls, you might want to keep track of those, and after a set number, either bump the character up by 1, or tell him/her/it that by either taking a 3-month improvement class for 3,000 credits per month, or successfully passing the exam for the next higher skill level for 3,000 credits, with passing the test a Difficult task, the skill level goes up by one.

As for Skill Level "0" skills, some of those are given on Page 6 of the rules, and once you determine the player character's home world, you might want to add some, up to whatever limit you want, taking all of the home world's characteristics into acount. A planet with a very low law level, say between 1 and 3, would indicate that the character probably should have at least a Skill Level of "0" in firearms, while a farming background on an agricultural planet of Tech Level 7 might qualify for a Mechanic skill of "0" for maintenance and minor repair of agricultural equipment.

 

[WistfulD]

My interpretation of Traveller (along with Metamorphosis Alpha and other games where the PCs don't really improve after character creation) is that the timeframe of a typical campaign is infinitesimal compared to the timeframe (a whole life) that it took you to learn the skills you already have. If a campaign takes sufficiently long (maybe over a year), you get to consider it another term (career=adventurer) and the GM should work with the players to determine what skill their character is "learning during this career term" and make up a system of events that would suggest when the new level kicks in.

I think the skill learning system that they have is best suited for learning skill 0s (except that it completely omits how). That represents a 43 year old career merchant taking a crash course in gunnery or vac suit operation because it suddenly became vital knowledge. A crash course to raise a 2 ina skill to a 3 is less realistic.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Just some observation, personal preference, things to think about, and discuss.

Learning by doing
I can see some realism in a system based on learning through use. Is it impossible to learn something (perhaps a new level 0 skill) through normal everyday non exceptional practice? Is it not possible to learn from one's mistakes? Not sure why a system should be based on just box cars or exceptional success.

This type of learning by doing seams to me most likely, or easiest, at the lowest levels for many skills. Still plausible even at the highest levels as the innovators who push the bounds of knowledge and abilities do so via their own hard work and research and not by just duplicating what others know.

Pick up a level 0 skill through practice and experimentation. Move up to level 1 through use and research and so on.

The higher levels would probably be more difficult and time consuming than learning through other methods.

Self taught
Instructional books, on line learning, simulation machines and so on. Learning things without an instructor and at your own pace is certainly realistic. For many skills, this includes some learning by doing too.

Obviously there is a limit of learning based on the level of the resources available. Some skills will need the proper equipment and resources for simulating or performing "real world" tasks as things like Medic: stitching up a cut or Survival: starting a fire rubbing sticks together, are best learned through actual practice and are not just learned in a book.

Learn from a mentor
It is certainly realistic for someone with skill to teach what they know to another. This method likely includes some learning by doing with supervision as well as some practice on ones own. This method can include some directed self teaching "Here, read this" with help when needed "I'm having trouble with the section on reducing transmutation decay".

Learning with assistance should certainly go faster and be less difficult than self taught or learning by doing alone.

Learn from an instructor
This type of learning is dedicated time spent learning from someone practiced in instructing the subject matter. It likely incorporates teachers aids "Learn from a mentor", research assignments "Self taught", and practice labs "Learning by doing".

To me, it may be a lot of dedicated time and hard work, but ultimately the quickest, safest (want to learn jump engineer 2 through trial and error?) and most likely (if basing success in gaining a skill on a task roll, this would have a lower difficulty than, for example, trying to teach oneself Medic 2) way to gain skill, especially at higher levels.

Advanced learning methods
With advances in tech levels, advances in learning may also be possible. Perhaps these methods still use whatever game mechanics one utilizes for the less advanced learning methods but there is a modifier to the time required and/or the difficulty.

Take the good with the bad
I believe any system that allows increasing skills should include some balance. What are the options for losing skills due to lack of use? Old age?

You've self taught or done some online reading and think you know something now but you really don't? One may feel they have learned something but they fail a skill advancement roll or just haven't spent enough time or had a bad instructor.

How does one pick a mentor? I believe in strong role playing vs playing the game mechanics. In game, characters do not have stat sheets with skill levels. First time you see someone on a gun range and they hit a couple bulls eyes at long range and a personal opinion is formed of abilities. "Hey, can you teach me to shoot like that?" The shooters abilities are based on skill, attributes, and perhaps just luck. They may or may not be able to help you learn. Someone could consistently appear to be a good shooter because of natural ability (dex) yet not be able to provide a high level of instruction (low skill level).

One may seek out a mentor or instructional material but they may discover half way through that mentor is no better skilled than they are or that the material they found on the net is above or below what is required to help them improve. While learning without proper instruction, perhaps one learns bad habits.

Pitfalls
Base learning by doing on task results and players may seek out opportunities to roll instead of role play.

Realistically, some skills may take longer to learn than others like Medic 1 vs Vacc Suit 1. Some skills, like astrogation, may be easier to learn from books or on line while others, like art(sculpting), may require more hands on work.

Get too complicated and a system can turn into a lot of record keeping that distracts from role playing.

 

[salochin999]

It's true that certain skills and higher skill ranks should probably take longer than others especially academic type skills but in game terms I think it depends a bit how often you get to play. When I was playing once or twice a week then book-keeping and slow progression was fine but nowadays it might only be a few times a year so I want any skill progression (or skill changing) to be fast and simple.

I hand wave it by assuming there are usually long gaps between adventures. If there isn't a gap then the allowable skills could be more limited.

In terms of total skill limits there are only so many hours in the day so the way I see it is although a person could potentially learn many different skills in their lifetime there is a limit to how many they can *practice" at the same time.

 

[Timerover51]

The following is an example of learning by doing, for Skill Level 0.

A kid from the Chicago suburbs on a dairy farm in Wisconsin learns to drive a tractor, herd cows with it, rake/bale/stack hay, and milk cows. Other things learned includes feeding hogs (a length of 3/4 inch pipe is very handy to have), gather turkey eggs from disagreeable birds (domestic turkeys are not the brightest bird in the constellation, revenge is eating them), do not order omelets made with 3 Turkey eggs, and check to see if the electric fence is turned ON, never assume. Do not ask where the top grade of veal comes from, quite disheartening.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Looking at page 59 of the Core book makes it a little easier to learn new skills.

If I amr eading it correctly you total up your skill levels in all your skills.
To improve a skill from one level to the next your base time in weeks is your base score, plus the number of weeks for the new skill. If your skill total was 3 and you wanted to raise a skill from 2 to 3 it would take 6 weeks.

Learning a skill at level 0 is not covered, so your Training system is an interesting option. The cost seems really high though. It would be worth it in Player terms to take a year and live on their mustering out cash and work at a job, or train in an academy to get a skill level to 0.

you can learn a skill at level 0, in a time scale equal to your skill total. so a man with a skill total of 3 would learn a level 0 skill in (3+0=) 3 weeks.

 

[DickNervous]

Thanks for all the feedback!

1) Max total skill ranks is sum of two highest stats (so a 777777 could have a total of 14 skill ranks).

(It says something about this in the rules somewhere but I forget where and don't recall which stats the rules use.)

In the rules it states that the maximum level of skills a player can have is INT+EDU, that would still be the case. So if a player wanted to increase a skill that would put them over that limit, they would have to drop a different skill in addition to doing the training.

I may adjust the costs if it turns out that they are to high. It will depend on how quickly they get those "tick marks". Now I need to digest everything everyone said.

 

[WistfulD]

you can learn a skill at level 0, in a time scale equal to your skill total. so a man with a skill total of 3 would learn a level 0 skill in (3+0=) 3 weeks.

So getting lots of level 0s really is a good idea? Excellent!

 

[CosmicGamer]

you can learn a skill at level 0, in a time scale equal to your skill total. so a man with a skill total of 3 would learn a level 0 skill in (3+0=) 3 weeks.

So getting lots of level 0s really is a good idea? Excellent!

This is open for interpretation as the rules are not clear if one can bypass level 0 and go straight to level 1 like many skills gained during chargen.

 

[Leitz]

I'm not sure about it being difficult to learn lower levels of skill nor of having to forget one thing to learn another. I've played this out in my own life and have disproven it repeatedly.

On the other hand, skill levels above 1 seem to need an exponential amount of effort. If a Medic 1 is good skill and a Medic 3 is required for a Doctor level then there's a steep curve. I'm perfectly fine with that, based on experience.

There's probably nothing to keep someone from learning lots of 0 level skills. If it takes roughly a month to learn level 0 in something then in a year they'd have a dozen more skills. Or you could have a person focus on one skill for the entire year and get to a level 1 in it. Maybe a 1 takes a year, 2 takes 2 years, 3 takes 4 years, and it continues to double each time. Spending time, not having a life, and staying on track are key issues.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm not sure about it being difficult to learn lower levels of skill nor of having to forget one thing to learn another. I've played this out in my own life and have disproven it repeatedly.

Some of this is game mechanics for balanced play and to put some limits on things.

As far as real life, my uncle likes to keep busy and does some work plowing out some apartments and plowing out neighbors and friends. He had an operation which will leave him laid up for a couple months recuperating. My 70ish year old aunt learned (one day of instruction with a friend of my uncle) to use his truck and take over his plowing duties.

There's probably nothing to keep someone from learning lots of 0 level skills.

Personal ability to learn and to retain a multitude of information and recall it as needed can vary from person to person. Thus the INT EDU limit that some speak of for the game.

Some abilities will deteriorate unless you practice. For example my first career was in electronics and that was multiple decades ago. I certainly don't remember the various formulas anymore and would have to look them up. I can't even remember the values for the colors on a resister any more. Do resistors still exist?

The possible deterioration of unused skills is not something covered in the rules, or is it. One can think of hitting the INT EDU limit and learning something new and needing to drop a skill as forgetting the most unused skill one learned the longest ago.

Some knowledge needs to be kept up to date. My second career was in computers. I've been out of that career almost 10 years now. I have not kept up with the changes in server operating systems, programs, networking architectures, programing languages and so forth. Not much chance I could get a job now without freshening up my skills and getting the latest certifications.

You only have so much time for practice, reading trade magazines and so forth all while perhaps holding a job to pay the bills and trying to learn more skills.

As you say

Spending time, not having a life, and staying on track are key issues.

 

[Leitz]

Some of this is game mechanics for balanced play and to put some limits on things.

I'm never quite sure how to take the "game balance" theory. This is a game, who needs balance? Good DMs are able to ramp up the challenges to meet whatever the character can come up with. You seemed to have no issues doing so!

I can't even remember the values for the colors on a resister any more. Do resistors still exist?

BBROYGBVGW. I would give the mnemonic we used in high school a few decades but it was a bit off-color. Check out the Arduino stuff. Pretty neat and it takes you back to "old school".

While thinking about this reply I realized you could play a parent and child team in Traveller. A 6 term retiree and a 1 term child. No real balance in roles or skills, but who cares as long as the players are having fun? If one character needs help with a small bar tab and another can by the bar without really dipping into savings, what is "balance"?

 

[atpollard]

I'm never quite sure how to take the "game balance" theory. This is a game, who needs balance? Good DMs are able to ramp up the challenges to meet whatever the character can come up with. You seemed to have no issues doing so!

Since this is Traveller, and I would never want anyone to read something the wrong way, let me use an example from AD&D and my personal experience.
The 'Cavalier' had just come out as a class and I was excited to play one ... per our house rule, we started with maximum HP at 1st level, I rolled an 18 and stuck it into DEX for the AC boost, I strapped on my Full Plate Armor, and I carefully selected my weapon specializations for maximum benefit.
The first level party set out in a 1-3 level dungeon.
Nothing could hit his -2 AC, and I mowed through everything in the module.

In a few levels, the rest of the party and the monsters would have closed the gap (Cavaliers were heavily front-loaded on benefits).
Until then, anything the DM might throw at me as a challenge, would decimate the rest of the party.
We retired the character early in the name of group fun.

IMO, the Traveller equivalent is something like skill-6.
Any attempt at a task less difficult than 'impossible' is an automatic success.
I once wanted to play a 70 year old con man (other).
Try calculating how many skill levels a 70 year old man gets.
I had skill-8 and skill-9 in some things.

Personally, I find that having no chance of success or no chance of failure removes a lot of fun from play. I am definitely in the "a 12 always hits and a 2 always misses" camp.

However, you are quite correct that Traveller is much less about 'balance' between the characters than most games ... a 1 term ex-Merchant and a 6 term ex-Navy are not really going to be 'balanced' in the traditional "3rd level party of adventurers" sense.

 

[Leitz]

Agreed. I can see the time required for skill levels of 3+. My characters are often the "One or two skills at 3-4 and several at 0-1". I think I'm personally the same way so it could be my own psychology.

What would you think about an Int/Edu maximum on single skill levels? Say I have a +1 Int mod and a +2 Edu mod, so the highest I can have any skill is +3? I can have lots of skills at +1 or +2.

How would that work for physical skills like shooting?

 

[atpollard]

My Classic Traveller roots will probably show, but I view acquiring skills as requiring time on the job, so I tend to ignore INT/EDU limits as a referee and prefer "no skill should exceed the number of terms" give or take 1 level for exceptional circumstances.

So the approximate minimum age that I would expect for each skill level is:
skill-0 = age 18 = ex-0 term
skill-1 = age 22 = ex-1 term
skill-2 = age 26 = ex-2 term
skill-3 = age 30 = ex-3 term
skill-4 = age 34 = ex-4 term
skill-5 = age 38 = ex-5 term
skill-6 = age 42 = ex-6 term
Most NPCs should probably be older.
Up to skill-3, I have no real problems.
As you climb higher than skill-3, I tend to view the character as a savant ... an expert in one narrow task with some significant weakness to balance it out.
In the case of my old con man, I loaded him up with interpersonal skills (Streetwise, Liaison, etc.) and deliberately gave him very low STR/DEX/END (like 243XXX IIRC) and no weapon skills.

Anyone who can make a case for starting a career younger than 18, can claim another +1 to skill levels ... but it should be a good story that makes the character more interesting.

 

[Leitz]

You'd like Angelo then. Broker 4 and Persuade 3. Combined Str and End of 9. I play him as too focused on market analysis and socializing with Venture Capitalists to have time for health stuff.