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Slavery....in Space!

If you are going to go there then include the cost of the ship and just forget the whole thing. but since we were looking past that, and into what the costs and profit might be if you already had a ship and market I did the math and determined that LB's provided the best option for bringing intact and healthy goods to market at a good profit. If you figure that a slave brings 20k at market (and I still think that's pretty dang reasonable) then you are looking at the first cargo run paying for approx. (after regular expenses) 75% of the emergency low berth installation. That is a pretty good return.

Now maybe shooting them full of Fast and then stack them up might work if you don't care about their condition at the market, but prime quality pays for itself. And freezing them in LB would have less risks, even with the potential of losing 15% when thawing them out. Less worry about disease running lose ( a common problem during the historical Middle Passage, and one that could happen here and be worse if it did), less monitoring of the stock required. Less overhead on life support (a cheap tank of O2 and a scrubber won't cut it in a closed system under the Traveller rules as they stand).

Actually, a cheap tank of O2 and a scrubber IS plenty for a guy who draws only 3 hours of breath. Hit them with a Cr25 sedative, and a Cr200 dose of fast, plus a Cr20 scuba tank refill charge (on a Cr500 scuba tank), and rack them 3-4 per Td in canvas litters on litter-straps. Then spend another Cr900 on the antidote... and you've shipped them considerably denser, and can collapse the "quarters" down to about 5%...

You'll need to heat the space to keep them near normal temps, IMO, but that's a non-issue. They're asleep, age 3 hours in a week, not on ship's air, and stacked up like cordwood. Very much easier (and still a good model for) slave ships of the GAoS...

... and can convert to carry cargo goods back.

And such gear could also be used as "emergency relief evacuation" gear. By the way - you can get two weeks on a single scuba tank while under fast and active. Titrate it properly, and it should be good for 9 to 12 for a sleeping person.
 
but since we were looking past that, and into what the costs and profit might be if you already had a ship and market I did the math and determined that LB's provided the best option for bringing intact and healthy goods to market at a good profit.


Then you ignored the LB survival failure %. AND, the person/ton hauled. Redo the math.
 
Then you ignored the LB survival failure %. AND, the person/ton hauled. Redo the math.

No I didn't. Read the post again - I mentioned the potential 15% failure. It isn't always going to happen and the odds don't increase merely by having a large number of pods since the failure percentile is a single chance per LB, not against the whole.

And what does this mean: "AND, the person/ton hauled." ?

If you are referring to carrying capacity for an emergency low berth it is 4 people per ton. That works out to a potential profit after the LBs are paid for of (at 20k per person) 79,900CR per low berth per trip. What other math, other than maybe amortizing the return on the expense of the initial berth purchase, and possibly including a 15% wastage in case of berth failure, are you talking about?

The failure rate can be held to an even lower percentile, or even eliminated, by having a good medic available. Medic-5 pretty much eliminates the chance of a low berth failure, or at least reduces it to so low it isn't worth considering.
 
It occurs to me, as I watch the inevitable flamewar rising out of the Passenger Pods discussion in the Locker Room, that slaver ships and piracy in space is a very different experience than slavery/piracy in the Golden Age of Sail.

Flamewar?? What flamewar?

Back in the GAoS, hauling a cargo of slaves was merely an ethical choice. If you had the moral flexibility to do it without flinching then it was a no brainer, you trade dewdaws to African kings for slaves, through them in the hold and occassionally slop food and water down onto them, get em to America, make 'em wash out the hold, and then load it up with barrels of sugar and pallets of cotton, which you bring back to Europe and sell for dewdaws to give to the Africans, earning heaps of profits at each leg of the way.

Depends on your Golden Age period. Britain outlawed slavery in 1807, and the importation of slaves to the U.S. was outlawed in 1808, and an 1819 amendment to the law declared the act of importation of slaves on a slave ship to be piracy, with the captain and crew liable for punishment as pirates. Several European nations followed suit over the next decade or so. You could land and sell slaves elsewhere, of course (some of the South American countries were infamous) - just not in the U.S. or in British, or later several European, possessions. After 1808, slave ships were reduced to the status of smugglers. By that time, of course, there was already a large self-supporting slave population in the U.S.

A factor here is that a big reason the slave trade was abolished in Britain and Europe was that it was no longer needed. The Industrial Revolution in Europe produced a demand for skilled workers, a role the slaves could not easily fill. Britain in fact struggled with a growing problem of unemployment over the next couple of decades as changes in agriculture drove rural workers into the city. All that left an opening for abolitionist sentiments to move forward unchecked - at least in Europe - and from there to the European colonies. In the U.S., it ran head-first into the fact that the agrarian southern economy depended heavily on slaves.

What that means for the Traveller universe is that slavery is more likely where tech is low and there's a need for a lot of grunt labor. Where tech is higher, technical solutions are more attractive: machines don't try to rebel, at least not until about TL 16 or 17, I think.:D

Unfortunately, that's also going to mean a problem connecting the dots. Your best source for slaves is low tech worlds if you're planning on using "dewdaws" to buy them, your best market for slaves is low-tech worlds, but a lot of them are too low-pop to be useful markets. It's going to be tricky finding source and market close enough to be profitable, and honestly you're going to get heavy competition from closer, higher tech despotic worlds selling their indentured debtors and political prisoners.

...By the same token, while I've always just sort of assumed that space pirates exist, it occurs to me that repairing a ship on the high seas back in the Golden Age of Sail was usually just a matter of making some more rope, or slapping a patch of tar onto holes. I can't think of much damage that could be done to a ship that didn't either scuttle it completely, or could be patched up with some tar.

Barnacles and shipworms (a species of clam, oddly enough) are the great enemies of wooden ships.

Shipworms are about as good as termites for destroying wood. From about the mid 18th century forward, ships had copper sheathing on the immersed portions of the ship in order to shield the wood from attack by worms. Prior to that, you pretty well figured your ship had a limited life, and you didn't want to be on an old ship. The copper sheathing needed occasional maintenance to make sure it stayed in place.

Barnacles are a distant relative of crabs that like to attach themselves to things - unfortunately including the bottom of your ship - and then filter-feed from the water. They aren't a threat that I know of, but in large numbers they can slow a ship down something fierce, at least as the sailors measured things in their weeks-and-months-long journeys. Ships would periodically be drydocked or beached so the crews could pry off the little pests. If you didn't take care of them periodically, the loss of speed meant for longer trips and possibly problems if you needed speed and didn't have it.

A heavy wind could damage your spars; ship captains judged the wind very carefully and had their crews adjusting sails all the time to get best use without damaging sails, rigging, or spars, but sudden gusts or a moment's inattention could lead to damage. Ships always carried spares. Then there's rope - you mentioned that. And, of course, your ship is only as good as its sails, which means someone has to mend and occasionally replace them.

Whereas spaceships are EXPENSIVE. Expensive to make, expensive to repair, expensive to maintain.

I haven't nearly the skills or knowledge base to do it, but it would be interesting to see someone do an economic comparison between the cost of building and maintaining space ships in Trav versus the costs in Hornblower's day.

Sorry, I have bits and pieces, but not enough for that big task. You need the cost of the ship; the cost of the supplies it consumed - including rope, spars, sail, tar, provisions, and so forth; the rate at which it consumed supplies; and the wages of the crew - keeping in mind that a sailing ship needs a rather large crew compared to the typical Traveller ship, so that becomes a consideration.
 
Now maybe shooting them full of Fast and then stack them up might work if you don't care about their condition at the market, but prime quality pays for itself.

The point being that it's a question of economics, and whether you want Wal-Mart economics or Neiman Marcus economics. You *do* have the problem with the ELBs of not being able to fold them away for return trip cargo.

In fact, there could be some central clearinghouse for the captured victims to be warehoused before transshipped to the market. This would allow for even less time and expense in transport by the slave-takers. Depending on what kind of mean n' nastiverse you run it could be big business.

This would be likely, since the Imperium bans interstellar slavery. You would snatch them from somewhere, then drop them at the clandestine slave market. Or, you would pick them up from said clandestine slave market and deliver to the purchaser. It would reduce your profit, since a middleman naturally cuts into that.

Freeing or rescuing some hottie from a "fate worse than death" would be a great adventure to write up. :)

Exactly! :D

Now, IMTU, there is slavery in some places. There's at least one alien race that enslaves other races (including humans - well, slavery is part of it). There is at least one world where aliens are enslaved to humans. And, several places where man's inhumanity to man is evident. And, that means there is bound to be some interstellar trade in slaves. It never hurts to have a few clear bad guys around that the PCs can feel good about harming their livelihood. :)
 
This would be likely, since the Imperium bans interstellar slavery. You would snatch them from somewhere, then drop them at the clandestine slave market. Or, you would pick them up from said clandestine slave market and deliver to the purchaser. It would reduce your profit, since a middleman naturally cuts into that.

The Imperium bans the keeping of chattle slaves on its member worlds. It presumably also bans the capturing of Imperial citizens into slavery outside the Imperium, but then, I can't think of any country that didn't ban the enslavement of its own countrymen by outsiders (Enslaving your own countrymen and selling them to outsiders is another matter).


Hans
 
In the Flandry universe the Terran Empire uses slavery as a means of punishment for criminals. It doesn't seem to last forever in every case, either. Historically slavery has been used as punishment in a lot of eras and cultures so it might be something that exists in the OTU, somewhere, just not as part of the Imperium itself. Or maybe tolerated by it as a local issue not worth messing with since it is part of the penal system?

As for nabbing innocents and selling them as slaves that might be something that pops up once in a great while and in addition to the PC's captured and needing rescue, a campaign could be devised to allow the PC's to be Imperial agents running down a slavery gang and shutting down a large ring. It could give the players a chance to play with something like a Gazelle or similar.
 
That's kind of my thinking.

I also think it depends on the need of the world itself. If you got some low level tyrant whose world or nation is poor, then I'll bet he's willing to risk an Imperial crackdown by flaunting the anti-slavery laws by the mere fact that he's off the Imperial radar.

In high school I started to write a story about such a situation, and, of course, a band of hearty adventurers with something like a 200ton scout or a hotrod spaceship comes and rescues the lot.

Then this movie came out :mad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8UZ2WfLG70
 
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There was a story that just came out recently (in another genre) that had to do with the slave trade in a kingdom where slavery is highly illegal.

Many slaves were sold to a neighboring kingdom where it was legal, but some were slaves "sold for their appearance" as somebody put it, even back to the first kingdom.

It was ran by somebody in the royal family itself and brought great suffering upon the people, enough to have created two heroes to battle it.

Basically it was run intelligently in the book, and the heroes realized that they couldn't just kill everybody or it would start up again. As long as there is a need, it will happen.

There was money in it, but the ones that took the slaves were basically violent men (and women), just mooks.

This could easily be put into Traveller inside the 3I itself, and several adventure possibilities have already been mentioned.
 
The Imperium bans the keeping of chattle slaves on its member worlds.
Hans, I could have sworn it was merely the trade in slaves. Where is the official reference? (One of those things you just *know*, whether it's true or not, and with no idea where it came from.)

It presumably also bans the capturing of Imperial citizens into slavery...
That's generally true everywhere, yeah.
 
Okay, so we've established a few different methods for slave running which would be profitable enough on a per-run basis to consider.

One of those ways involves building ships specifically for slaving -- although it occurs to me as I write this that these ships could have been colony ships originally. That ship would be good for slaving and not much else.

Since we all seem agreed that the market demand for slaves is pretty specific and not very long lived, I think it'd be a great campaign premise for our band of high-moral'd Travellers to acquire a slaver ship now that there's no longer a strong demand for slaves in that sector of the galaxy, and see what they do.

The other way we've established wouldn't require a specialized ship but would require regular and steady access to some pharmaceuticals. Again, my books are in storage, what sort of TL are we talking about? How does that fit into the trade run between source of slaves and destination?

Someone said something about presuming artificial conditions in order to create an artificial need for slaves -- I find that a bit dizzying in face of the fact that we're talking about a fictional setting to begin with. The whole point of my original post was that I want to examine what "realistic" conditions would be. Or, say rather what "economically feasible" conditions are.

The argument that slaves are a greater hassle than massive tractors is only valid in an environment where massive tractors are available. Is it necessarily the case that anywhere spaceships can go, they can bring/sell high tech solutions? Hrm. Maybe so.

A friend of mine from off the forums asked a rather pertinent pair of questions:
* "Are we talking about slavery or enforced immigration? Because that's a question of population pressures."

* "Are we talking about enslaving other humans or aliens? Does everyone know the aliens are intelligent?" (or I guess, "sophonts" in this language?)

Does the calculus change much if everybody involved starts thinking about the cargo as Beasts of Burden instead of as "slaves?" (echoes of Terry Pratchett: "If it can beg for mercy, then killing it is a crime as far as I'm concerned!")
 
Sorry, I have bits and pieces, but not enough for that big task. You need the cost of the ship; the cost of the supplies it consumed - including rope, spars, sail, tar, provisions, and so forth; the rate at which it consumed supplies; and the wages of the crew - keeping in mind that a sailing ship needs a rather large crew compared to the typical Traveller ship, so that becomes a consideration.

I guess the question that I'm asking as far as the piracy aspect goes is: where do pirates repair their ships?
 
Rancke2 said:
The Imperium bans the keeping of chattel slaves on its member worlds.
Hans, I could have sworn it was merely the trade in slaves. Where is the official reference? (One of those things you just *know*, whether it's true or not, and with no idea where it came from.)

Article VI of the Warrant of Restoration:

"Article VI - Slavery Prohibited

Chattel slavery shall not exist within the Imperium, nor in any territory directly under its control, nor on any member world, nor within any territory with which a member world shall have dealings."​

It's from T4:Milieu 0, but there are references in earlier versions. I just can't remember where.


Hans
 
Callous but...

The Traveller issue is that you can't strike the racks and store them and the chains in 10 percent of the cargo space to fill the other 90 with cotton and tobacco.

Emergency Low Berths = 4 Slaves / 1dton. As compact as it gets, no chance for rebellion and not to great a loss of profits for deaths. Historically accurate.

Callous yes, but, if you were a humanitarian you wouldn't be a slaver anyway. Illegal to transport humans this way? Sure, but then I'm guessing slavery is also illegal.
 
And such gear could also be used as "emergency relief evacuation" gear. By the way - you can get two weeks on a single scuba tank while under fast and active. Titrate it properly, and it should be good for 9 to 12 for a sleeping person.


When I proposed this method that idea occurred to me also. In one dton 1.5 X 1.5 X 3m you could easily get 10 people stacked while drugged. You could fit 400 in a 40 ton cargo hold for a jump. Might be the only way to mass evac during an emergency...
 
No I didn't. Read the post again - I mentioned the potential 15% failure. It isn't always going to happen and the odds don't increase merely by having a large number of pods since the failure percentile is a single chance per LB, not against the whole.

15% dead vs.~0% dead AND 2X more slaves per dton.
 
A Modest Proposal for a Campaign

The players are captured by Vargr/Aslan slavers, stripped, drugged, and transported to a live meat market. They have to escape with no equipment whatsoever, before becoming the main course in a feast. After two days, one by one the players are removed from the market and eaten, one per day.
 
Okay, players are good guys versus a Vargr slave transport gang.

Breakdown shelf racks and chains and a modular LS support unit crammed into the corner of a cargo bay. Slaves are given diapers with an anti microbe property, a shot of fast drug, and one bottle of water every 20 days.

On the return trip the shelves are struck, the chain are stored, and along with the life support pack leave lots of room for cargo.

2,000 a dose, plus 50 ea for the specialty diapers, are your ongoing costs.

Heck, if the racks and chains are cheap enough you could abandon them every trip to run back cleaner, and call the life support module a colony unit if you get boarded.

If they ditch the racks and chains every trip and restock... Fixed cost for the life support pack maybe 50k (cost for the 3I advanced base); repeating cost 4k per slave.

300 slaves per subby trip, at 1.6 million per trip costs, if the gear costs another 1.5k ea.

However, if you save the gear, more like 900k trip costs, call it 1 million even.

Assume they purchased the type R at half price very used, and planned on making 25 trips total...the price difference per slave has to be 10k per person, just to break even for that portion of the network assuming 2 jumps or less.

So for slavery to make sense, assuming the acquisition point is within five jumps of the market and place of use, the profit of sale to the wholesaler at point of sale per slave has to be in excess three years standard wages, and even then it is really iffy to if criminal would be willing to risk it.
 
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