Slavery....in Space!

[Garyius2003]

I just did an economy of scale calculation. Assuming they purchased a well used modular clipper from Mongoose's version, and used gas giant refueling, they could cover the amortized costs and transport costs at 10k of the sale price per slave (assuming optimized rack storage of 4 persons per ton).

Now slavery starts making sense. Assuming acquisition costs at 10k per person, and transport costs at 10k per, selling at four-five years average 3I salary makes the concept attractive for evil people...unless doing so leads to Imperial Entanglements.

 

[sabredog]

A friend of mine from off the forums asked a rather pertinent pair of questions:
* "Are we talking about slavery or enforced immigration? Because that's a question of population pressures."



Does the calculus change much if everybody involved starts thinking about the cargo as Beasts of Burden instead of as "slaves?" (echoes of Terry Pratchett: "If it can beg for mercy, then killing it is a crime as far as I'm concerned!")

In both of these instances the method of transport and treatment will have to be, at least on the surface, more humane and comfortable. Lining everyone up, shooting them up with Fast and stacking them on top of each other with a rebreather mask won't work if this is the case. Neither the transporters, nor the customers , are going to experience the same emotional and empathic disconnect in these scenarios that they would with de-humanized slaves. There are some parallels in history - even in the mid-20th Century but I won't go into them here given the forum rules; I'm sure you all know how they worked out the logistics in some of those instances and kept the costs down.

Some crews might be willing to do whatever it takes to cut corners and just get the 'cargo' form point A to B, but that will always be the case. But for the most part if you assume that these are not illegal operations, these two scenarios are going to stem from larger, more public events and markets. As such the buyer will want to make sure his merchandise was handled humanely and was well-cared for, or that the transporters will at least need to comply with any rules and regulations governing the forced (for whatever reason that doesn't involve 'cattle cars') immigration of large numbers of people. Maybe not, but remember that I am going with the legal and open operation here.

Comfy low berths (emergency or single) would be the way to go, if only on the surface. You could put someone in a fake low berth that dopes them with Fast, then take the person(s) out and stack them like cordwood if that's how you think it needs doing. The news people who might take pictures would be happy, the immigrants would willingly go aboard, and the whole operation appear humane with that bit of theater.

As far as the beasts of burden thing goes, are we talking about actual animals or aliens that we think are animals? In the former just shipping embryos or younger versions of the beasts would be better since they take up less space and could be put in appropriately sized low berths for the trip. In the latter case the rules for mere slavery, or better, decent treatment for animals, would apply.

In all cases, the costs have to be weighed on both the market and supplier ends. On the market end there has to be a rationale for providing beasts of burden if robots and machinery can do the same job faster, cheaper, and more reliably. On the supply end you could fit an awful lot of machinery and robots (plus parts) in a hold and with a lot less hassle. Slaves of forced immigration is different, though, since societal factors of prejudice, racism, fear, anger, political or religious reasons and other moral and ethical factors will be tied up in the equation. Expense might be seen and a worthy cost of the operations at the more benign end of the spectrum, or something to be reduced to the lowest possible level and to heck with the drawbacks to the 'freight' on the other end. That is something the circumstances will define.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Adventure Seed

I'm going to revitalize the TNS news service with a related story

 

[rancke]

Average salaries depends on the TL of the slave society. For a TL15 society, per capita income is Cr22,000. But slavers could increase the average value of their cargo by going for above-average slaves. A goldsmith is worth more than a manual laborer, and a gifted goldsmith worth more than a merely competent one. And creative pursuits is a corner of the labor market that robots can't compete in.

(What is the cost of a manual labor robot, anyway?)


Hans

 

[aramis]

Average salaries depends on the TL of the slave society. For a TL15 society, per capita income is Cr22,000. But slavers could increase the average value of their cargo by going for above-average slaves. A goldsmith is worth more than a manual laborer, and a gifted goldsmith worth more than a merely competent one. And creative pursuits is a corner of the labor market that robots can't compete in.

(What is the cost of a manual labor robot, anyway?)


Hans

Art and sex have always been the high end of the slave trade.

 

[rancke]

Art and sex have always been the high end of the slave trade.

Oh yes. 'Luxury'[*] slaves would command much higher prices (Unless advanced cosmetic surgery has put an end to any shortage in that line).

[*] Traveller-friendly euphemism.​

Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Oh yes. 'Luxury'[*] slaves would command much higher prices (Unless advanced cosmetic surgery has put an end to any shortage in that line).

Hans

Would there be a market for nabbing homely slaves, putting them under the "knife", then selling them as luxury slaves?

 

[aramis]

Would there be a market for nabbing homely slaves, putting them under the "knife", then selling them as luxury slaves?

Less, but yes. It requires a long term operation with plenty of resources, and a willingness to indoctrinate them very thoroughly.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Less, but yes. It requires a long term operation with plenty of resources, and a willingness to indoctrinate them very thoroughly.

You mean like in an old-timey harem training school? Hmmmm..... Beginnings of a low-brow adventure are taking shape......

 

[sabredog]

Rancke's comment on robots vs. slaves makes a good point about why slavery might even exist in a universe where it is largely illegal and/or not part of the penal system. Robots might be cheap and good for average labor, but there are those who will always pay for extras and luxury. Slaves instead of mere robots might be a status thing in some cultures - especially depending on what the slaves are for.

I am reminded about something said in the first Dumarest books, Winds of Gath (outstanding pulp series, BTW, I finally started it and wish I'd found it a long time ago). The rich nobles and others who could afford it were heading to the cliffs for the wind experience. Air/rafts were available but to both provide some form of work and minor income for destitute travellers and to provide something status-wise for the visiting tourists, the propelling motors were removed form the rafts. The desperate for income types were employed to pull the rafts along with ropes and it was remarked that the people on the rafts viewed it as a luxury/status thing that was better than using just motors. Whips and races were part of the experience for some.

So the demand for slaves might be purely a status issue in some cultures. That would produce, depending on how the slaves are procured, a market more limited but more profitable than a larger one that just relies on volume. A desperate person might even sell themselves into such a situation and once they realized what they have gotten themselves into try to escape with the aid of some plucky player-characters.

 

[Dragoner]

Modern HRM says slavery just doesn't work and economics agrees; of course there are niche cases like sex slavery. You could also suppose a high power distance culture where what we considered slavery, others would find normal. But as a modern manager, we are taught that employees self-esteem and productivity are tied, and where intrinsic rewards are more valuable than extrinsic rewards; even negative rewards like the whip. Destroy someone's self-esteem and you will practice extinction of even the behaviors you want until even the slave expects to be whipped, on purpose. The triangle trade was a commodity trade in a cash poor system, it was only profitable under special conditions and collapsed quickly once they changed. Even chattel slavery in the south had the rug pulled from under it's feet by the British moving cotton production to Egypt and India.

 

[Enoki]

Slavery works only when there are not better economic alternatives to it or there is a clear political / religious reason for it. In ancient societies it was viable as there were no pack animals or wagon-like equipment and harnesses etc., that were sufficently better to give an alternative. That is, a slave was as efficent or more efficent in moving goods and doing work as a horse or other animal was.
In the US slavery only existed within agribusiness (for the most part) because there was no cost effective alternative to picking and cleaning cotton as a prime reason. Given a harvester and cotton gin this reason goes away and slavery would go with it.
The sex slave industry is simply a case of demand exceeding supply for a low cost product and slavery results as there isn't a good alternative.
If the society has political or religious reasons for it say, an alternative to incarceration, or as part of a religious system (sacrifices for example) then it may exist for that specific reason too.
I doubt that things would change much in a Traveller setting in this respect.

 

[sabredog]

If it isn't something the entire economy is based on, but rather a luxury or prestige item, I think it might be more viable as something you'd encounter here and there in the Imperium. As such it might even be tolerated more - though viewed as distasteful to the majority. Something for the core world types to look down the nose upon, but nothing to get upset about in certain corners of the galaxy.

The antebellum South was looked at as a pretty backwards society among the Europeans who had long before abolished slavery and even (in the case of the British) were combating in the trade on the open seas beyond sovereign territorial entanglements. The same thing might exist in the Imperium where the trade is illegal on the books, and slave ships found are open game for the Imperial authorities, but for diplomatically practical reasons the Imperium doesn't come down on the words that practice slavery since it is too small to be worth the risk of war over it since it might disrupt the traffic in some valuable and cheaply obtained item form those same worlds. Like the cotton trade in the South to Europe.

It is when it reaches the point that there is wide abuse and suffering that it will probably be stopped. But as long as someone makes a profit on it, even if only small in the grand scheme of an economy, it will exist. It just might not be called slavery. Indentured servitude could be called slavery of choice by some, exploitation by another.

 

[Dragoner]

If it isn't something the entire economy is based on, but rather a luxury or prestige item, I think it might be more viable as something you'd encounter here and there in the Imperium. As such it might even be tolerated more - though viewed as distasteful to the majority. Something for the core world types to look down the nose upon, but nothing to get upset about in certain corners of the galaxy.

This I agree with because it sets up artificial conditions for slavery and doesn't use economics to justify it; slaves aren't productive, even less than cheap contract labor. Also there can be a page in the "Evil Imperium" playbook of a Duke or Baron shipping dissidents off to slavery. Other situations can be used, historical precedents such as from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufferings_in_Africa_(book)


Robots are another issue, while lights out factories are in the news lately, any society progressed that far also would know modern human resource management (HRM).

 

[sabredog]

Robots are another issue, while lights out factories are in the news lately, any society progressed that far also would know modern human resource management (HRM).

Probably, but manpower requirements from a population that can't meet them may mean that robots are a laborforce multiplier. Agricultural industry in particular would benefit. Same with aquaculture operations. They may even be useful in risk reduction since some monster storm might destroy a robot aquaculture platform harvesting and processing algae and plankton it can be replaced or repaired - people can't always be so easy to come by, especially ones with specialized skills.

 

[HG_B]

 

[Blue Ghost]

This I agree with because it sets up artificial conditions for slavery and doesn't use economics to justify it; slaves aren't productive, even less than cheap contract labor. Also there can be a page in the "Evil Imperium" playbook of a Duke or Baron shipping dissidents off to slavery. Other situations can be used, historical precedents such as from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufferings_in_Africa_(book)


Robots are another issue, while lights out factories are in the news lately, any society progressed that far also would know modern human resource management (HRM).

I think I touched on these aspects. Slavery would have to be peculiar to the social structure. That is slaves are only economical when the fabric of the society is at risk. I think the Roman Empire is an example here; for without forced labor, in their eyes, things would not get done, and the social hierarchy would break down. I mean, for them at least, if slaves were freed and flaunted authority where would it end? I think the prejudice there was that slaves were there because they were slaves; incorrigible and not useful for anything other than being forced to work.

If we go the 3I, or its neighbors, there's bound to be pockets of slavery. But for a steller community, one with robots or early android technology, slaves might become rare.

 

[Dragoner]

Probably, but manpower requirements from a population that can't meet them may mean that robots are a laborforce multiplier. Agricultural industry in particular would benefit. Same with aquaculture operations. They may even be useful in risk reduction since some monster storm might destroy a robot aquaculture platform harvesting and processing algae and plankton it can be replaced or repaired - people can't always be so easy to come by, especially ones with specialized skills.

The real proplem is like from Player Piano, what do people do when the robots take over? That is what we are facing now, robots aren't just taking over blue collar labor, but skilled white and pink collar labor as well. It's one reason I say the old Imperium built battleships, something for people to do and feel a sense of belonging, like the Egyptians building the Pyramids (which contrary to popular belief weren't built by slaves).

 

[sabredog]

I think I touched on these aspects. Slavery would have to be peculiar to the social structure. That is slaves are only economical when the fabric of the society is at risk. I think the Roman Empire is an example here; for without forced labor, in their eyes, things would not get done, and the social hierarchy would break down. I mean, for them at least, if slaves were freed and flaunted authority where would it end? I think the prejudice there was that slaves were there because they were slaves; incorrigible and not useful for anything other than being forced to work.

If we go the 3I, or its neighbors, there's bound to be pockets of slavery. But for a steller community, one with robots or early android technology, slaves might become rare.

To add to this I would point out that there may be some tasks within a culture that may be held as too 'low' for a free citizen to perform, hence a slave will need to do it. It might be something that evolved over a long time and became a cultural artifact (after all a robot could do it, too) stemming form some long ago taboo or caste system before a conquered enemy came along to use while previously lower castes became elevated. Now, generations later, the enemy is long gone but the need to periodic replenishment of the slave pool requires some new source. Hybridization to rejuvenate the inbred slave pool, etc..

 

[sabredog]

The real proplem is like from Player Piano, what do people do when the robots take over? That is what we are facing now, robots aren't just taking over blue collar labor, but skilled white and pink collar labor as well. It's one reason I say the old Imperium built battleships, something for people to do and feel a sense of belonging, like the Egyptians building the Pyramids (which contrary to popular belief weren't built by slaves).

If I were able to have a robot provide my living I would do a lot of more creative and enjoyable things than I am now. Heck, I'd become a professional student and gorge myself silly on history and the life sciences. I think any society would do the same and probably benefit from it. The robots wouldn't have to be replacing everyone - just supplementing to act a a production multiplier, or do repetitive menial or dangerous tasks.

Don't be such a Luddite, the robots are our friends. They say so so it must be true since robots can't lie.