Slavery....in Space!

[rancke]

I won't replicate others list here, but I was a little imprecise. If you mean Imp memberworlds that are low-tech, not so much. But inside Imperial space and not members yet? They exist.

Unless you're talking about interdicted worlds, I don't know of a single example of a world inside the Imperial border that isn't a member world or a colony of a member world.

And slapping an interdict on a planet means little.

It means that no one is allowed to visit it unless authorized by the proper Imperial authorities.

Remember the Shionthy belt?

I'm familiar with the Shionthy Belt, yes. What about it?

That works for Imp member worlds. Not so much for planets just outside Imp space...

It's quite possible that the Imperium does not enforce anti-slavery rules against worlds outside itself, but AFAIK there's no evidence either way about that. Presumably the Imperium will interfere with any traffic in Imperial citizens, just as it interferes with piracy that affects Imperial shipping.

... or low-tech planets in Imp space but not yet participating in the Imperium.

There is no evidence of any system in Imperial space that is not part of the Imperium. All systems, including the interdicted ones, have an 'Im' in the alignment field of the UWPs.

And TL-5 IS primitive to a TL-12+ sophont used to a galaxy-spanning empire.

But you used the term in a way that implied that these worlds kept slaves because of their primitive technology. TL4 and 5 societies may use slaves, but they definitely don't have to. (Nor does any society no matter how low the tech level, although the impetus to do so may be higher with lower tech levels).

I seriously doubt the Imps have nothing better to do than interfere in each and every low-tech culture to just to feel like they've stamped out slavery.

But do you have any evidence that they don't? I think a sophisticated TL12+ society will have plenty of charitable organizations ferreting out questionable practices and bringing them to the attention of the Imperial high nobles. What happens next probably depends quite a lot on the character of the local duke, but since failing to enforce Imperial policies would be one of the reasons for stripping a high noble of his office, I'd expect them to at least cover their posteriors one way or another.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

Insults merely show the weakness of your argument.

Welcome to my ignore list.

You sneer, then dismiss replies as insults and choose to play the wounded victim. Yeah, I wasn't overly genteel, but I avoided being deliberately insulting.

Neither of you have been being too polite right now. Please try to fix this.

I won't replicate others list here, but I was a little imprecise. If you mean Imp memberworlds that are low-tech, not so much. But inside Imperial space and not members yet? They exist. And slapping an interdict on a planet means little. Remember the Shionthy belt?

This depend on the reason whay this planet was interdicted. Remember Norris risked his career by going to an interdicted world without permission.

That works for Imp member worlds. Not so much for planets just outside Imp space or low-tech planets in Imp space but not yet participating in the Imperium. And TL-5 IS primitive to a TL-12+ sophont used to a galaxy-spanning empire. I seriously doubt the Imps have nothing better to do than interfere in each and every low-tech culture to just to feel like they've stamped out slavery. Once said planet starts getting regular traffic stopping off to trade, then they'll need to do something.

TL 5 is not so primitive. Industrialization is begining and machinery begins to replace non skilled labour (and so slaves). Historically in earth there has not been a single country, AFAIK, that kept slavery legal at this developement level.

About the Imperium having better things to do than prosecuting slave trade, this is just one of the canonical missions of the High Justice, ranking on it as is Treason. Slavery may be legal in some non-imperial planets (even inside the imperium space), but its trade is a High Justice Crime, and I don't believe many merchants want to risk that (though some surely do).

 

[Dragoner]

Please try to fix this.

That isn't my intent, but maybe it is too personal, I'll bow out of this conversation.

 

[Darkwing]

Unless you're talking about interdicted worlds, I don't know of a single example of a world inside the Imperial border that isn't a member world or a colony of a member world.It means that no one is allowed to visit it unless authorized by the proper Imperial authorities.

Contrition is easier than permission, and unnecessary if you're not caught.

I'm familiar with the Shionthy Belt, yes. What about it?

Canon example of breaking an interdict.

It's quite possible that the Imperium does not enforce anti-slavery rules against worlds outside itself, but AFAIK there's no evidence either way about that. Presumably the Imperium will interfere with any traffic in Imperial citizens, just as it interferes with piracy that affects Imperial shipping.

It's quite likely the Imperium would cause diplomatic protest if it enforced anything outside it's borders. And the war on drugs has been so successful at interfering with the drug trade today.

There is no evidence of any system in Imperial space that is not part of the Imperium. All systems, including the interdicted ones, have an 'Im' in the alignment field of the UWPs.

A matter of interpretation, IMO. The Imps presume that the planet will join when it gets to that stage. Also, reasoning from analogy, remember the papal decree splitting the rest of the planet between Portugal and Spain? Catholic countries were expected to go along with it.

But you used the term in a way that implied that these worlds kept slaves because of their primitive technology. TL4 and 5 societies may use slaves, but they definitely don't have to. (Nor does any society no matter how low the tech level, although the impetus to do so may be higher with lower tech levels).

I didn't mean to imply that it was required by their tech, but that it would seem to them to justify it, IF they still have it as a cornerstone of their economy.

They seem not so primitive to us because it wasn't long ago, and we still have plenty of slave holding places today, but that's mostly about ego, power, and sex today.

I do quibble about the perception of the necessity of slavery at lower TLs. Depending on a lot of factors, it may be quite needful for them. But the type of slavery practiced will be another factor. Classical world slaves were usually treated decently and could rise to power and prominence. New World slaves were treated decently when they were still white, but once the Portuguese in Brazil showed the Americans African slaves, they started rationalizing their behavior until it got pretty nasty.

But do you have any evidence that they don't? I think a sophisticated TL12+ society will have plenty of charitable organizations ferreting out questionable practices and bringing them to the attention of the Imperial high nobles. What happens next probably depends quite a lot on the character of the local duke, but since failing to enforce Imperial policies would be one of the reasons for stripping a high noble of his office, I'd expect them to at least cover their posteriors one way or another.
Hans

Which CAN sometimes affect things. Good plot points.

 

[Darkwing]

Neither of you have been being too polite right now. Please try to fix this.

You're right.

This depend on the reason whay this plaet was interdicted. Remember Norris risked his career by going to an interdicted world without permission.

That's obvious, and we know it. But there's plenty of modern cases of people going places it's illegal for them to be and not getting caught.

TL 5 is not so primitive. Industrialization is begining and machinery begins to replace non skilled labour (and so slaves). Historically in earth there has not been a single country, AFAIK, that kept slavery legal at this developement level.

South Africa? Asia and South America? Sex trafficking is slavery, too.

About the Imperium having better things to do than prosecuting slave trade, this is just one of the canonical missions of the High Justice, ranking on it as is Treason. Slavery may be legal in some non-imperial planets (even inside the imperium space), but its trade is a High Justice Crime, and I don't believe many merchants want to risk that (though some surely do).

Exactly. I don't care what Justice thinks, the navy's who's going to be on-scene. If they detect it, they'll rain warath on the slavers, but all too often, the slavers will be just another apparently lawful merchant.

That isn't my intent, but maybe it is too personal, I'll bow out of this conversation.

Please don't. I'll try to ameliorate my tone. Stay and do the same.

 

[McPerth]

That's obvious, and we know it. But there's plenty of modern cases of people going places it's illegal for them to be and not getting caught.

You can go to places you shouldn't, but you must do it clandestinely, and, as told in many other threads, there is no stealth in space. If you go to an interdicted system, you will probably be detected, even if not identified nor stopped. Too much traffic in an interdicted system and probably Navy patrols will begin to appear to enforce it.

South Africa? Asia and South America? Sex trafficking is slavery, too.

I talked about being legal, not about existing.

We all know the fact of being illegal doesn't mean it doesn't exist, but active prosecution tries to stop it. Of course, prosecution may be less than effective due to various reasons, but, at least in theory, it keeps being illegal, and you can go to jail for it.

Exactly. I don't care what Justice thinks, the navy's who's going to be on-scene. If they detect it, they'll rain warath on the slavers, but all too often, the slavers will be just another apparently lawful merchant.

But you may bet some agents of the MoJ are trying to investigate it and probably infiltrate in the organization, and some of those apparetly lawful merchants are searched by the navy in apparent random sweeps.

The fact of being a High Justice crime makes it high in the MoJ list, and once a ring has been identified, I guess Navy is hapy to help with some living fire exercises if needed.

 

[Carlobrand]

From Library Data A-M:
"Interdiction: The Imperial practice of interdiction of worlds within the boundaries of the Imperium had long been a source of contention between liberal and conservative factions in the government. Interdictions must be approved by a member of the Imperial family, but generally such approval is given in response to a request from an interested service, almost always the Scouts or the Navy.

"It is generally held that the Scouts recommend interdiction to shield a young or sensitive culture from the interference that trade and commerce will bring.

"The Navy is held to be more vindictive in its recommendations, using interdiction to punish local governments or to hide its own mistakes.

"Interdicted worlds are awarded travel zone red ratings by the Travellers' Aid Society. See also Red Zone."

From Library Data N-Z:
"Red Zone: The Traveller's Aid Society travel zone classification for a nation, world, or system which is dangerous to travellers. In general, the imposition of a red zone classification indicates the location is quarantined, interdicted by higher authority, or at war.

"Quarantine indicates that a dangerous disease is present, and the danger of war is self-explanatory, but interdiction requires further discussion. Interstellar governments often find it necessary to restrict access to worlds or systems for political or military reasons, and do so by publishing interdictions. Enforcement of interdiction varies with the reason for the restriction. Interdiction may be imposed on a world if it is a military base or other sensitive installation, for the private reservations belonging to powerful families desiring seclusion, for developing societies which the government has elected to allow to evolve in isolation, or for valuable resource areas being saved for later development or exploitation."

A world can be red-zoned and not interdicted. An interdicted world might be patrolled by a squadron of destroyers, or you might find nothing more than a couple of bored scouts in a scout/courier, broadcasting warnings and willing to look the other way for a bribe. All depends on the reason for the interdiction.

Shionthy, if I recall, is interdicted for dangerous concentrations of antimatter in the asteroid belt, the interdict maintained only by, "warning beacons (automated) which continuously broadcast a message stating that this area is interdicted and dangerous." Or at least so says Adventure 1; there may have been some embellishments since then. Not much need for enforcement when nature provides its own consequences.

You might also stumble across more local restrictions: for example, Knorbes is not interdicted, but one continent is an Imperial game preserve a.k.a. possible Ancients site, with entry strictly probhibited except by permit, and then only on "the northern shore in the company of a licensed guide." A Kinunir-class escort cruiser monitors for trespassers from orbit.

 

[rancke]

Shionthy, if I recall, is interdicted for dangerous concentrations of antimatter in the asteroid belt, the interdict maintained only by, "warning beacons (automated) which continuously broadcast a message stating that this area is interdicted and dangerous." Or at least so says Adventure 1; there may have been some embellishments since then. Not much need for enforcement when nature provides its own consequences.

Beltstrike added some information. You can find a summary of all the canonical information here. The information in the secret page linked to is my attempt to explain the fact that 70 million people live and (evidently) survive pretty well in this oh-so-dangerous system. It's not canon.


Hans

 

[rancke]

I'm not sure how relevant interdicted worlds are. The reason I brought them up at all is that Darkwing spoke of worlds inside the Imperium's border that were not member worlds. I was going to say "There is no such thing"[*], but then I thought that conceivably there could be some interdicted worlds that were not considered Imperial member worlds. Certainly there are few, if any, interdicted worlds where the Imperium enforces any Imperial laws.

So I was just attempting to head off a quibble.

[*] Except for colonies and outposts of member worlds or Imperial organizations where the Imperial laws still applied.​

Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I'm not sure how relevant interdicted worlds are. The reason I brought them up at all is that Darkwing spoke of worlds inside the Imperium's border that were not member worlds. ...

I agree. The only way a non-Imperial world's going to find itself inside Imperial borders is if the Imperium grew around it so that the non-Imperial world found itself basically surrounded, the way some cities have surrounded neighboring towns. I don't know of any such instance in the Imperium, but if there was such an instance, then an interdict would definitely be the kind of thing the Imperium might do to persuade that recalcitrant little system to surrender its autonomy and join the Imperium. Much kinder than some of the things they've done in the past.

I can't see the Imperium tolerating isolated non-members within its borders - too much opportunity for trouble.

add: nice addition on Shionthy, makes sense when you consider that the Imperials would want to keep a very tight rein on antimatter commerce for very obvious reasons.