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Slavery....in Space!

No, by the mid twenties, the whole coal industry in that area was collapsing.

After World War I, as the coal industry began to collapse...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

If there were any millionaires or billionaires involved, they didn't make it off of coal.

You're looking at a period well after the one we're talking about - by several decades. A period by when government interference was on the rise.

The big mining companies made their money, at the expense of the locals, and without concern for the welfare of the workers. Then, when the company store model was starting to come apart around 1890-1910, most of the money stayed in its non-local owners.
 
You're looking at a period well after the one we're talking about - by several decades. A period by when government interference was on the rise.

Exactly, which is my point in reference to this thread. In a star system that doesn't have an outside interference agent, i.e. government, outside labor union organizers, etc, then it would be a very viable option. A corporation big enough to own a star system and/or have near total control of access is going to be able to do pretty much what they want...

Until a group of those meddling adventuring Travellers stick their noses in...
 
Exactly, which is my point in reference to this thread. In a star system that doesn't have an outside interference agent, i.e. government, outside labor union organizers, etc, then it would be a very viable option. A corporation big enough to own a star system and/or have near total control of access is going to be able to do pretty much what they want...

The government only stepped in only after it became the largest civil insurrection since the civil war.

The ending period is the final result, collapse, (everything that came before is largely meaningless): non-viability.
 
This report on the treatment of a shipment of slaves in 1839 is taken from the book American Merchant Ships and Sailors by Willis Abbot, copyright 1902, and downloaded from Project Gutenberg. It is copyright-free.

How such insurrections were put down was told nearly a hundred years later in an official communication to Secretary of State James Buchanan, by United States Consul George W. Gordon, the story being sworn testimony before him. The case was that of the slaver "Kentucky," which carried 530 slaves. An insurrection which broke out was speedily suppressed, but fearing lest the outbreak should be repeated, the captain determined to give the wretched captives an "object lesson" by punishing the ringleaders. This is how he did it:

"They were ironed, or chained, two together, and when they were hung, a rope was put around their necks and they were drawn up to the yard-arm clear of the sail. This did not kill them, but only choked or strangled them. They were then shot in the breast and the bodies thrown overboard. If only one of two that were ironed together was to be hung, the rope was put around his neck and he was drawn up clear of the deck, and his leg laid across the rail and chopped off to save the irons and release him from his companion, who at the same time lifted up his leg until the other was chopped off as aforesaid, and he released. The bleeding negro was then drawn up, shot in the breast and thrown overboard. The legs of about one dozen were chopped off this way.

"When the feet fell on the deck they were picked up by the crew and thrown overboard, and sometimes they shot at the body while it still hung, living, and all sorts of sport was made of the business."

Forty-six men and one woman were thus done to death: "When the woman was hung up and shot, the ball did not take effect, and she was thrown overboard living, and was seen to struggle some time in the water before she sunk;" and deponent further says, "that after this was over, they brought up and flogged about twenty men and six women. The flesh of some of them where they were flogged putrified, and came off, in some cases, six or eight inches in diameter, and in places half an inch thick."
 
Much of the comments in this thread would seem to show a level of cultural bias, which is unsurprising. As far as I can tell, our culture's view of slavery is relatively recent with the main ideas first getting a foothold during the Reformation/Age of Enlightenment. For the greatest period of human history, slavery has been accepted as an integral part of nearly every society in existence. from the Mayan to the Vikings to Persians and India. There are laws governing it since the Code of Hammurabi, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. To treat all the hypothetical cultures in Traveller as having similar views towards slavery as our modern world is to make Traveller hew closer to the 'yanks in space' trope which can rob non-earthlings of their alien-ess and players of the sense of culture-shock that should belong to any science fiction setting.

Slavery has proven that it can be economically viable by the fact that it has been part of nearly every human society in history and the fact that in modern times, despite by outlawed, there are people profiting from human trafficking and captive labor.

What about marriage? Historically, in more than a few cultures, wives are treated as little more than slaves whose existence is for the husband's pleasure. Wife beating and marital rape being allowed in many societies for most of human history.

Military? Do the Mamluks ring a bell?

I'm afraid that I don't find the idea that slavery isn't slavery unless its chattel slavery to be very convincing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery
 
What about marriage? Historically, in more than a few cultures, wives are treated as little more than slaves whose existence is for the husband's pleasure. Wife beating and marital rape being allowed in many societies for most of human history.

It's the leap from "Some forms of marriage is tantamount to slavery" to "Marriage is slavery" that I object to.

I'm afraid that I don't find the idea that slavery isn't slavery unless its chattel slavery to be very convincing.

There are other forms of slavery, partly because there are several different definitions of slavery. Is a wage slave really a slave?

Chattel slavery is the form of involuntary servitude expressly forbidden by the Imperium. Other forms of involuntary servitude is not, unless (it appears) the Imperium chooses to regard it as equivalent to chattel slavery. There are examples of grey areas decided one way and grey areas decided the other way. One company world could be runnning a slave racket and the one next door could be running a "model village" world[*]. Some forms of involuntary servitude (e.g. conscription, penal servitude) is regarded as slavery only in the most unusual cases.

[*] By the way, I think company worlds would (at least potentially) be under a lot more Imperial supervision that ordinary member worlds, since companies have to keep their Imperial charters. Something like Zarathustra in the first Fuzzy book: a great deal of latitude, but some lines it's not able to cross.


Hans
 
It's the leap from "Some forms of marriage is tantamount to slavery" to "Marriage is slavery" that I object to.

If you are basing that off of my comments, sorry if you misunderstood but that was sarcasm. Until recently, I hardly ever posted here much so it's understandable that most here don't know that my posting style includes a lot of sarcasm and tongue-in-cheek posts. Around here Aramis is probably the only one that knows that due to us both hanging out a lot on the Kenzer&Co forums for about the last 10 years...

What most don't know is that I can say such things in front of my wife and even if I say it with a straight face, she knows that I'm kidding and her most likely reaction would be to give it right back at me... ;)
 
Let's see... slave cultures coming to mind immediately from Sci-Fi...

  • Nessus enslaves Speaker to Animals/Chmee and Louis Wu in the Ringworld series.
  • The Cateni enslave humanity in Anne McCaffrey's Freedom's ___ series
  • The Planet Vulcan in the Sten Series. Company store.
  • Doc, Frik and Frak in the Sten series - involuntary service with implanted behavior modifications to enforce it.
  • The casino station in the Phule's Company series.
  • Star Trek (if you can call ST Sci-Fi with a straight face) ;)
    • Orion Women
    • Bajorans in ST: DS9 are enslaved by the Cardassians...
    • Khan's ear-worms...
    • Hundreds or thousands of species enslaved by the Borg
  • Hutt Society in Star Wars (Even less Sci-Fi than Star Trek) :rofl:
  • Pern by McCaffrey...
    • Dragons on Pern very practically enslave some humans. Moreover, the Humans don't realize it. Worse, it's not even really intentional that the dragons enslave their bound humans - and they make the humans want that bond.
    • Chattel apprenticeships
    • serfdom in some minor holds
  • Crystal cutters in McCaffrey's Crystal Singer series... the Ballybran Mining Consortium uses Crystal Thrall to keep them bound...
  • Shell people in the Ship who Sang series (and it's close spinoff, City who fought). Again, McCaffrey. Indenture for survival and training.
  • Boskone uses drug addiction to enthrall and enslave its agents in Lensmen.
  • Several cultures are slave takers in Niven's Integral Trees and the Smoke Ring.
  • A couple cultures in the Falkenberg's Legion series are slave takers of various kinds. The Col takes a really dim view of them...
  • Justifiers RPG... Betas are human-animal hybrids... and slaves... and the manumission rules imposed by the civil rights agencies require that they be able to buy themselves back and must receive fair pay. Human Criminals can volunteer for the same. Combine criminal indenture, manufactured slave race with creation debt, and very mild company store mentality... great setting, but mediocre rules.
  • Gor... going into detail violates good taste. Hell, Gor violates good taste. Bondage and slavery.

Anne McCaffrey examines loss of freedom in various guises in her novels... including company store, chattel apprenticeship, psionic bonding, survival indebtedness, and more.

The Enderverse examines several aspects of involuntary servitude and sophont sacrifice.

Slavery and related issues are COMMON themes in sci fi...
... and that's before you add horror elements, including Vampires, Zombies, and certain forms of parasitic mind controllers.

Okay, I feel like this conversation is getting a little too political (and I totally blame myself for that), and I'd like us to try to refocus on the fiction.

Given the list above, and any other examples that you can think of, how realistic do you feel those examples of slavery were? I tend to feel like pretty much everything out of any Star Trek series wouldn't hold up to the sort of scrutiny that an RPG campaign demands.

Or, since "Realism" is sort of a moving target, which concepts would you find acceptable to use in your own campaigns? Which unacceptable?

The Pern series, and for that matter all its ilk, predicated on some kind of magical slave-inducing substance (and here I include that episode of Farscape with the plantation-planet of hippies), seem really trite to me, and I probably wouldn't include them in a campaign.

Interstellar religious war, and slavery based on centuries of religious strife, I could probably see, although I think the whole "one planet/one religion" and "one alien race/one quotable book" thing is a bit....dodgy.

"Ship Who Sang" stuff? Stole it in a heartbeat. Stole it before I finished reading the back cover in the bookstore.
 
In the 3I verse, the mindrapers may have some inducted labor that needs freeing, the vagr gangs, some of the border world, and maybe the hivers have some garbage going on.

If the sols are nasty in your 3I, for sure they are running concentration camps that need freeing.
 
Okay, I feel like this conversation is getting a little too political (and I totally blame myself for that), and I'd like us to try to refocus on the fiction.

Given the list above, and any other examples that you can think of, how realistic do you feel those examples of slavery were? I tend to feel like pretty much everything out of any Star Trek series wouldn't hold up to the sort of scrutiny that an RPG campaign demands.

Given the mechanisms, most of them work well enough. Even Pern works quite well - the bond is a psionic one, but it's little different from Nessus' Tasp in practice - a limbic system feedback response. And, for practical purposes, little different from Zhodani proles being reconditioned. They're dependent upon a major departure from known reality, but apply it quite thoroughly.

The rest are all consistent with various historic practices of slavery.

Even the Cardassian Occupation of Bajor is consistent; The Soviets and the Nazis both made extensive use of slave labor from ethnic and religious pogroms; Bajor as shown isn't even as bad as the Soviets (who were less deadly than the Nazis). Note that the Cardassian overseers even had a form of compassion for their slaves... especially those in the household use.

The Soviet use of Gulags really did pacify much of the Ukraine - creating a simmering resentment, but also a deathly fear of open revolt - especially since there were significant rewards for collaborators as well. Further, it was used for major public works projects away from home - so even if the inmates escaped, they stood out from the locals - significant accents.

Resettlement of the Irish dissidents to both the US and Australia mirrors the Cateni/Freedom's ___ series.

Trek's Orion slaves mirrors sex-slaves in the modern world - not going into details to avoid the no politics rule.

Drug addiction as a means of controlling slaves is a fairly modern trend (especially Opium, Meth and Crack for the sex trade), but is present in Trek (the Jem-haddar), Crystal Singer (The crystal is itself addictive), and the Falkenberg's Legion tales. It's also used by Nessus in relation to Louis Wu in the Ringworld series, both with the tasp and via the droud (a cybernetic implant)...

Cybernetic implants are not yet practical, but the methodology of the droud (wires into the pleasure center and/or pain center) can be readily used to create powerful reinforcement cycles and make the slave every bit as addicted as any drug regimen. It's in fact been used to train very large roaches in the real world, and to effectively turn them into ROVs. Yep, mechanical zombification. link to NBC News story
 
ishmael said:
What about marriage? Historically, in more than a few cultures, wives are treated as little more than slaves whose existence is for the husband's pleasure. Wife beating and marital rape being allowed in many societies for most of human history.

It's the leap from "Some forms of marriage is tantamount to slavery" to "Marriage is slavery" that I object to.
Then kindly take that leap yourself and do not put words in my mouth. Stating historical and verifiable fact is not the same thing as leaping to a conclusion such as you imply.
Frankly, I am offended.

btw
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wife_selling



Is a wage slave really a slave?
According to Cicero, Marx, Thoreau, Dickens, Chomsky, The New York Times in 1869, and others....yes.

http://store.iww.org/from-chattel-slaves-to-wage-slaves.html
http://alexk2009.hubpages.com/hub/Wage-Labour-Wage-Slavery

To keep the Imperium off your back, just do what Peter the Great did in 1723. Decree that all household slaves were now house serfs instead. Not that the serfs noticed a change in their living conditions....

As far as sci-fi settings, how about creating a world where defaulting on a loan might be culturally the worst thing possible. Poor who had borrowed might have to sell themselves or their family members to pay off the loan and such 'slavery' had contractual pay and living conditions until such debt had been paid off. Doing this on this world might keep a man out of prison, but on another world, it would put him in prison. Such are the things culture shock is made of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock
It would seem to me that Scout service members who move from culture to culture would have some fairly pronounced forms of transition shock....
And then there is reverse culture shock... "...You can't go home again..."
 
The Soviets and the Nazis both made extensive use of slave labor from ethnic and religious pogroms;

In Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich there is an interesting discussion on exactly what was the minimum amount of food required by a slave laborer to get useful work out of him/her while at the same time starving him/her to death. For those of you who might wish such information for your own ends, I would suggest consulting the book.

Also, for the space necessary for the transport of slaves, I have discovered the following information. Note, this does result in considerable numbers of slave deaths, but they are, after all, slaves, are they not? The source is the same as my previous quote.

In his work on "The American Slave-Trade," Mr. John R. Spears gives the dimensions of some of these puny vessels which were so heavily freighted with human woe. The first American slaver of which we have record was the "Desire," of Marblehead, 120 tons. Later vessels, however, were much smaller. The sloop, "Welcome," had a capacity of 5000 gallons of molasses. The "Fame" was 79 feet long on the keel—about a large yacht's length. In 1847, some of the captured slavers had dimensions like these: The "Felicidade" 67 tons; the "Maria" 30 tons; the "Rio Bango" 10 tons. When the trade was legal and regulated by law, the "Maria" would have been permitted to carry 45 slaves—or one and one-half to each ton register. In 1847, the trade being outlawed, no regulations were observed, and this wretched little craft imprisoned 237 negroes. But even this 10-ton slaver was not the limit. Mr. Spears finds that open rowboats, no more than 24 feet long by 7 wide, landed as many as 35 children in Brazil out of say 50 with which the voyage began. But the size of the vessels made little difference in the comfort of the slaves. Greed packed the great ones equally with the small. The blacks, stowed in rows between decks, the roof barely 3 feet 10 inches above the floor on which they lay side by side, sometimes in "spoon-fashion" with from 10 to 16 inches surface-room for each, endured months of imprisonment. Often they were so packed that the head of one slave would be between the thighs of another, and in this condition they would pass the long weeks which the Atlantic passage under sail consumed. This, too, when the legality of the slave trade was recognized, and nothing but the dictates of greed led to overcrowding. Time came when the trade was put under the ban of law and made akin to piracy. Then the need for fast vessels restricted hold room and the methods of the trade attained a degree of barbarity that can not be paralleled since the days of Nero.

The register ton mentioned would have been one of 40 cubic feet, being based on the volume required to store a tun cask of wine. A cubic meter is slightly over 35 cubic feet, and a Traveller displacement ton is just slightly smaller than 480 cubic feet (476.748 is a more accurate figure). Therefore, under slaving regulations, it would be possible to put 18 slaves (1.5 X 480/40) in a Traveller displacement ton, and if really packed in, 5 times that number. You would have to make sure that your air supply was adequate, but as a jump is only a week, no food would be necessary, and if you make sure that they are well watered before jump, you probably could get away with no additional water.
 
Much of the comments in this thread would seem to show a level of cultural bias, which is unsurprising. As far as I can tell, our culture's view of slavery is relatively recent with the main ideas first getting a foothold during the Reformation/Age of Enlightenment. For the greatest period of human history, slavery has been accepted as an integral part of nearly every society in existence. from the Mayan to the Vikings to Persians and India. There are laws governing it since the Code of Hammurabi, ancient Greece and ancient Rome. To treat all the hypothetical cultures in Traveller as having similar views towards slavery as our modern world is to make Traveller hew closer to the 'yanks in space' trope which can rob non-earthlings of their alien-ess and players of the sense of culture-shock that should belong to any science fiction setting.

To summarize the economic arguments against slavery as "yanks in space" shows more than a little bias itself, not to mention a degree of disrespect to those making the arguments. While some have indicated they wouldn't have it in their games for personal reasons, I don't think anyone has tried to claim that a Traveller culture of similar tech level to the Mayans or the VIkings or the Persians, etc. wouldn't have slaves - other than pointing to an Imperial rule of some sort that might maybe impact Imperial worlds.

The aforementioned Yanks do not keep slaves, nor their modern European counterparts, nor their modern Asian counterparts, nor ... in point of fact, the only pockets of slavery remaining in the entirety of this TL7-8 world are those mentioned earlier by Aramis - sexual slavery, status slavery by the very wealthy, isolated pockets that continue to live at TL4 or lower, and so forth.

Slavery has proven that it can be economically viable by the fact that it has been part of nearly every human society in history and the fact that in modern times, despite by outlawed, there are people profiting from human trafficking and captive labor.
...

I would suggest to you that the general absence of slavery in worldwide industrial societies including non-yank cultures - except in those pockets I mentioned - proves that your hypothesis is wrong with regard to TL7+ industrial cultures. It has been firmly established that it is more efficient to allow them their freedom and then to pay a miserably poor wage for their work: you aren't responsible for their feeding, shelter and medical expenses and, if they quit or die, there's always someone else from the ranks of the unemployed who is eager to take their job. Unlike rural societies, which can suffer manpower shortages for labor-intensive work, there is seldom a shortage of manpower in urban industrial societies - there are always lots of hungry poor willing to work for the pay.
 
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