Slavery....in Space!

[rancke]

Then kindly take that leap yourself and do not put words in my mouth. Stating historical and verifiable fact is not the same thing as leaping to a conclusion such as you imply.

Then you should have said "What about those forms of marriage that are tantamount to slavery?" instead of "What about marriage?". As it was, your statement was wide open to being interpreted as applying to marriage in all its forms and implying that marriage was another form of slavery.


Hans

 

[Ishmael]

Then you should have said "What about those forms of marriage that are tantamount to slavery?" instead of "What about marriage?". As it was, your statement was wide open to being interpreted as applying to marriage in all its forms and implying that marriage was another form of slavery.


Hans

I'm sorry. I didn't realise that "more than a few" and "many" really meant "all".

Seriously, dude... try actually reading carefully before you troll.

 

[Greylond]

In Albert Speer's Inside the Third Reich there is an interesting discussion on exactly what was the minimum amount of food required by a slave laborer to get useful work out of him/her while at the same time starving him/her to death. For those of you who might wish such information for your own ends, I would suggest consulting the book.

Yes, I've read that book. Excellent, if horrifying, information.

 

[Timerover51]

The aforementioned Yanks do not keep slaves, nor their modern European counterparts, nor their modern Asian counterparts, nor ... in point of fact, the only pockets of slavery remaining in the entirety of this TL7-8 world are those mentioned earlier by Aramis - sexual slavery, status slavery by the very wealthy, isolated pockets that continue to live at TL4 or lower, and so forth.

With respect to modern Asia, specifically China, a while back I was looking at putting back into production a game that had been published by Eagle Games. The individual that I was working with here proposed to produce the game in China, and ship it here. He indicated that he could get production costs for assembling the game components and cutting the plastic miniatures off of the runner down to $0.10, that is TEN CENTS, per hour US Dollars, by farming out the assembly to Chinese prison factories. When I ask how much of the money would actually reach the prisoners, he laughed and asked if I were kidding.

At that point, I terminated further discussions with the individual, and I am now looking at producing a range of WW2 miniatures compatible with the Axis and Allies series of games (produced in China for Hasbro) and the Attack Game by Eagle Games (which has all of the plastic pieces produced here, and requires that the purchaser cut them off of the runner). The molds and molding would be done in the US, probably Michigan, and the purchasers would need to do a bit of work cutting off the pieces from the runner.

 

[rancke]

Seriously, dude... try actually reading carefully before you troll.

You really should think twice before throwing around accusations like that. Some people are apt to take offense at the least little thing, and being accused of trolling is no small thing. Fortunately, I try not to take myself too seriously, so I'll overlook it. But be that as it may, I can see that it's unrealistic to expect further reasoned discourse with you on this matter, so I won't.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

With respect to modern Asia, specifically China, a while back I was looking at putting back into production a game that had been published by Eagle Games. The individual that I was working with here proposed to produce the game in China, and ship it here. He indicated that he could get production costs for assembling the game components and cutting the plastic miniatures off of the runner down to $0.10, that is TEN CENTS, per hour US Dollars, by farming out the assembly to Chinese prison factories. When I ask how much of the money would actually reach the prisoners, he laughed and asked if I were kidding.

At that point, I terminated further discussions with the individual, and I am now looking at producing a range of WW2 miniatures compatible with the Axis and Allies series of games (produced in China for Hasbro) and the Attack Game by Eagle Games (which has all of the plastic pieces produced here, and requires that the purchaser cut them off of the runner). The molds and molding would be done in the US, probably Michigan, and the purchasers would need to do a bit of work cutting off the pieces from the runner.

Prisoner labor, yes. And Aramis points to the Gulags and gave us a useful list of some Sci Fi stories based on historical precedents of captive or forced labor, and there was the German use of concentration camp prisoners and other captives as forced labor. There are reasons beyond economics for forced labor.

In the case of your friend with the Chinese contacts, for example, it's doubtful if 10 cents an hour would pay for the staff, food and other costs associated with keeping a prisoner, even in China. From the Chinese point of view, however, it keeps them busy and mitigates their costs to some degree.

I think we need to be careful - as this thread teeters on the brink of the political - to clarify that it isn't a case of there NOT being slavery in the far future. It's more a question of what forms slavery is likely to take if and when it occurs, for the sake of game verisimilitude. Expedition to Zhodane clearly established that there was at least one kind of slavery going on in the far future.

 

[Greylond]

Excellent points. Good post Carlobrand.

For one thing, when I mentioned a Megacorp running a slave system I was kinda thinking that you'd run into it on the fringe, and most probably just outside of the Imperium. Outside of the border but close enough to ship anything produced back to the Imperium. Hire a merc fleet for security and to keep pirates fended off. Filter your products through another border world outside of the Imperium or something like that.

 

[Timerover51]

Prisoner labor, yes. And Aramis points to the Gulags and gave us a useful list of some Sci Fi stories based on historical precedents of captive or forced labor, and there was the German use of concentration camp prisoners and other captives as forced labor. There are reasons beyond economics for forced labor.

In the case of your friend with the Chinese contacts, for example, it's doubtful if 10 cents an hour would pay for the staff, food and other costs associated with keeping a prisoner, even in China. From the Chinese point of view, however, it keeps them busy and mitigates their costs to some degree.

I think we need to be careful - as this thread teeters on the brink of the political - to clarify that it isn't a case of there NOT being slavery in the far future. It's more a question of what forms slavery is likely to take if and when it occurs, for the sake of game verisimilitude. Expedition to Zhodane clearly established that there was at least one kind of slavery going on in the far future.

My understanding was that the 10 cents per hour per prisoner was going to the head and staff of the prison as payment to them, and had nothing to do with the upkeep of the prison.

 

[rancke]

I think we need to be careful - as this thread teeters on the brink of the political - to clarify that it isn't a case of there NOT being slavery in the far future. It's more a question of what forms slavery is likely to take if and when it occurs, for the sake of game verisimilitude.

Agreed, but it's also a question of people not agreeing on what the term 'slavery' covers. Not everything denounced as slavery is regarded as such by the vast majority of those who use that term. I've heard conscription denounced as slavery, but evidently most members of our society disagrees. It should cause no great puzzlement that the same disagreement can be found in the Imperium. The reason why the Imperium does not crusade against conscription, penal servitude, marriage, wage employment, etc., etc. is that it does not regard these institutions as slavery per se. Specific instances of conscription, penal servitude, marriage, wage employment, etc., etc. can be slavery, but in those cases one would expect that either there are deep dark reasons why the local representative of the Imperium deliberately overlooks them or the Imperium is unaware of them and will step in when and if it learns about them.

And then there are the grey areas...

Expedition to Zhodane clearly established that there was at least one kind of slavery going on in the far future.

Yes, but it also made clear that at least in that particular instance the perpetrators took pains to cover their backsides legally against accusations of wrong-doing. Whether that was because the Arden Confederation has the same prohibition against slavery as the Imperium or because the Imperium enforces its own laws across the border (or both) is an unanswered question.



Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Trek's Orion slaves mirrors sex-slaves in the modern world - not going into details to avoid the no politics rule.

I would think the "details" would violate other rules, first!

It's in fact been used to train very large roaches in the real world, and to effectively turn them into ROVs. Yep, mechanical zombification. link to NBC News story

And, here I thought we were avoiding politics!

The reason why the Imperium does not crusade against conscription, penal servitude, marriage, wage employment, etc., etc. is that it does not regard these institutions as slavery per se.

Which I think was already mentioned - more than once - the general prohibition is against chattel slavery.

The key here is that all of these ideas are usable in a game setting: sexual slavery (lots of damsel-in-distress opportunities, of course), indentured servitude (regardless of opinions on it being slavery, some definite story possibilities), forced labor camps (more big-dang hero stuff, along with behind-enemy-lines), various methods of keeping them in line, etc. All opportunities to figure out a "working" system, then let your players break it. :smirk:

 

[Garyius2003]

The Duke has died, now the subsector has Duke Dh'ukvi. She has decided that the gender and marriage system on Lavanter is slavery, including the dress, movement, and mandatory housework rules, for life, and the spouse purchase system. It appears she may have actually been convinced by a tri-D documentary on certain mandatory surgical procedures inflicted at 16 standard years.

The characters have been to the planet before delivering certain needed radioactives, and exporting a small portion of the very high quality sensors the planet is known for.

They have been recalled/recruited to bring down one of the three deep meson sites to help clear the way for the task force and invasion force.

 

[DangerousThing]

If one is going to get persnickety, what about the most common species of slavery in Traveller, which has the victims risking life and limb and almost requires them to break the law.

I refer, of course, to the huge mortgage payments that characters have to pay to own a starship.

And perhaps that most insidious slavery of all, for don't the PC's have to obey the player's every whim? :rofl:

 

[Dragoner]

"I'm not saying it was slavery... but it was slavery."

/cue guy with crazy hair

 

[Ishmael]

Agreed, but it's also a question of people not agreeing on what the term 'slavery' covers. Not everything denounced as slavery is regarded as such by the vast majority of those who use that term. I've heard conscription denounced as slavery, but evidently most members of our society disagrees. It should cause no great puzzlement that the same disagreement can be found in the Imperium.

But that is the entire point. Given that all of these forms of slavery were accepted openly throughout all of human history until the Reformation, Why should human cultures spread across thousands of worlds over millenia be forced to share the social mores of a single human world's ideas that have been in existence for a scant two or three centuries ( and acted upon for as little as a century and a half )?
Hence my statement that there is a bit of cultural bias in evidence on this subject. That your objections are based on your own positions and that you invoke "most members of our society" proves it in your case. Given such cultural bias, no wonder the OTU is often treated as 'yanks in space' ( or more properly, 'modern western civilization...in spaaaace' )

Does the Imperium decide whether chattel slavery is the result of the person selling himself into bondage to pay debts or if another sells him, for example? Most of the other forms of slavery could be argued to be mere variations of chattel slavery depending on semantics, and the judge/jury's own cultural biases.

This might bring up some interesting questions as to just how far the Imperium forces itself into so-called self-governing* member worlds where Imperial laws might end up trumping centuries old societal customs. How might such populations react to having their own way of life outlawed while being forced to follow social mores that are alien to them?

*individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.... Traveller.wikia

Whether that was because the Arden Confederation has the same prohibition against slavery as the Imperium or because the Imperium enforces its own laws across the border (or both) is an unanswered question.

The idea that the Imperium may be enforcing its laws within neutral sovereign polities in itself troubling as to exactly how the Imperium feels it can wield its power. It might as well be enforcing its laws into the Sword Worlds or the Darrian Confederation considering that at least those sovereign polities aren't on the Zho's literal doorstep. But the Federation o fArden? Boy, talk about letting your dog crap on your neighbor's lawn.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Does the Imperium decide whether chattel slavery is the result of the person selling himself into bondage to pay debts or if another sells him, for example? Most of the other forms of slavery could be argued to be mere variations of chattel slavery depending on semantics, and the judge/jury's own cultural biases.

I'm not going to play semantic games, but, generally, "chattel slavery" involved the purchase of the person themselves as a product - a thing to be owned*. So, the person selling themselves ... questionable; once the 'owner' sells them to someone else, it is definitely "chattel slavery". This is the primary difference between, say, chattel slavery and indentured servitude: an indentured servant is not a thing, but someone who is literally in hock to their 'master'. In indentured servitude, the person is not sold, but the owner of the debt might sell the debt - obligating the servant to change 'masters'. It is also why most places do *not* consider marriage or conscription to be slavery - they don't meet the criteria of treating a person as an object to be owned and the resultant ability to sell them to someone else. Some people might have an attitude that treats non-chattel as if they were, but that doesn't make the institution chattel slavery.

*individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.... Traveller.wikia

Excepting nukes and slavery. Those two things are clearly delineated as Imperial no-nos in canon. Which is where this discussion started.

*chattel is defined as personal property; tangible, movable property

 

[Dragoner]

Why should human cultures spread across thousands of worlds over millenia be forced to share the social mores of a single human world's ideas that have been in existence for a scant two or three centuries ( and acted upon for as little as a century and a half )?

Because it is science? People have railed against science before, and they usually lose.

Don't trust me though, buy the text:

Human Resource Management MH 8E

While clearly strategic in nature, the text also emphasizes how managers can more effectively acquire, develop, compensate, and manage the internal and external environment that relates to the management of human resources.


I have it sitting here, like new, I can't sell it back because the connect is used, let's say for an easy $100? That's cheaper than anywhere else.

The Social Equity and Social Capital theories may have originated in the west, but they aren't western-oriented, it's just part of the whole Equity Theory of how people do things. Ethics are a sideshow to the business principles of creating and controlling a workforce without creating unstable social conditions. I'm sure the Imperium would take a dim view if Mora suddenly collapsed and became a "Worker's Paradise" like the Soviet Union, ready to export revolution across the marches. The Navy probably would be able to retake the place but the damage would already have been done; so it is only a proactive choice for self-preservation to not allow slavery, cultural considerations would fall by the wayside.

Nor does the military today treat it's soldiers as slaves, hearding them into battle like stupid animals:

The soldiers were seen as "analphabetic animals", who had to be forced to fight and carefully controlled in order that they did not flee the battlefield - of course one could teach them tricks but they were considered in common too stupid for education or responsibility! But times had changed since the Napoleonic wars and the basic education of the conscripted soldiers was improving with every decade. In the Prussian Army this was realized much earlier and during the united war in 1864 many of the k.u.k. officers (see especially the reports of Hauptmann im Generalstab Gründorf) were impressed by the skills and knowledge of the "simple Prussian Feldwebel".

http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/badges/qualbadges.htm

Military science had changed, so as the same for labor and society in general.

Places like the Third Reich, merely are an example of a failed society (which I know personal examples of as my family is Austrian and my Grandfather was a forced laborer at Alket for a short period). China is "eine verbotene Thema" because of politics; oh such the cruel slavery of the rules for declaring it such.

 

[aramis]

I'm not going to play semantic games, but, generally, "chattel slavery" involved the purchase of the person themselves as a product - a thing to be owned*. So, the person selling themselves ... questionable; once the 'owner' sells them to someone else, it is definitely "chattel slavery". This is the primary difference between, say, chattel slavery and indentured servitude: an indentured servant is not a thing, but someone who is literally in hock to their 'master'. In indentured servitude, the person is not sold, but the owner of the debt might sell the debt - obligating the servant to change 'masters'. It is also why most places do *not* consider marriage or conscription to be slavery - they don't meet the criteria of treating a person as an object to be owned and the resultant ability to sell them to someone else. Some people might have an attitude that treats non-chattel as if they were, but that doesn't make the institution chattel slavery.



Excepting nukes and slavery. Those two things are clearly delineated as Imperial no-nos in canon. Which is where this discussion started.

*chattel is defined as personal property; tangible, movable property

Up until the 1930's Women in the US were chattels - children still are. Bride prices are usually not paid to the bride, but to the bride's parents. And in many cultures with bride prices, the woman's consent to the marriage is irrelevant.

There was a documentary on the very issue of sexual slavery relatively recently, including consent-less marriages, especially in the former USSR. Unfortunately, it was in Ukrainian, but it's on you-tube, and subtitled. (The subtitles miss a few idiomatic expressions.)

 

[rancke]

But that is the entire point. Given that all of these forms of slavery were accepted openly throughout all of human history until the Reformation, Why should human cultures spread across thousands of worlds over millenia be forced to share the social mores of a single human world's ideas that have been in existence for a scant two or three centuries ( and acted upon for as little as a century and a half )?

It's an accident of history. The Imperium got its values from the Sylean Federation which got its values from the Rule of Man which got its values from the Terran Confederation which got its values from the UN.

Hence my statement that there is a bit of cultural bias in evidence on this subject. That your objections are based on your own positions and that you invoke "most members of our society" proves it in your case. Given such cultural bias, no wonder the OTU is often treated as 'yanks in space' ( or more properly, 'modern western civilization...in spaaaace' )

It IS very convenient that the default culture of our game universe just happens to embody the cultural values of the people who play the game, isn't it?

The idea that the Imperium may be enforcing its laws within neutral sovereign polities in itself troubling as to exactly how the Imperium feels it can wield its power.

There are examples of real world nations who had no problems with enforcing their own laws in other countries.

It might as well be enforcing its laws into the Sword Worlds or the Darrian Confederation considering that at least those sovereign polities aren't on the Zho's literal doorstep. But the Federation of Arden? Boy, talk about letting your dog crap on your neighbor's lawn.

It's just as likely that Arden's own laws have prohibitions against the shenanigans in EZ. After all, Arden was quite likely settled mainly by Imperials and was definitely a member world for centuries.


Hans

 

[Garyius2003]

Up until the 1930's Women in the US were chattels - children still are. Bride prices are usually not paid to the bride, but to the bride's parents. And in many cultures with bride prices, the woman's consent to the marriage is irrelevant.

I disagree, US state dower rights for women were often times as powerful as curtsy. Southern legal codes did regard women as being the equals of minors for conduct purposes from pre-civil war to the end of the war, but that faded quickly under the occupation and reconstruction. Bonsignore's 'Before the Law' makes this point very nicely with case law readings exactly on point from the period, but be aware it was written in a period when he thought critical feminist legal studies was the wave of the future. This was before Hollywood destroyed MacKinnon, and she finished the job herself.

The ability to vote and serve on juries (1930s to 1950s) was followed closely by the ability to divorce for no legal reason, and to get abortions.

The most famous example (outside our politics rule here) is George Washington. He could free HIS slaves on his death (and did), but not those of his WIFE or who worked his wife's property. That was 'waste' and a violation of her dower rights. If the father of the country and its greatest leader couldn't violate his very wealthy wife's legal rights, who could?

 

[kuros]

With respect to modern Asia, specifically China, a while back I was looking at putting back into production a game that had been published by Eagle Games. The individual that I was working with here proposed to produce the game in China...

As an example of the sort of culture shock you might experience in the game, I'll offer another real-world example.

I've been friends with a woman who sells costume garments at gaming conventions for a number of years. I listened to her as she wrestled with the moral choices involved in buying off-brand textiles produced in Taiwan. Several years later, I ran into her again and discovered that she has since bought a Taiwanese "sweatshop." When I asked her about this, she laughed. "I bought them air conditioning. They won't use it. I pay them above-average weekly wages and told them to stop coming to work on Saturdays and Sundays. They try to break in to the factory and work anyway. I told them I was paying them more per week than they'd get anywhere else, and that I wouldn't pay them extra for working on the weekends, they didn't care. They said if I wanted to be lazy, fine, but don't ask them to be. I've tried everything. They won't work less than 60 hours a week."

How about a scenario where your freed "indentured servants" are offended by the "freedom" you're offering because it's lazy? Because they wouldn't want their kids to grow up believing in air conditioning?