Slavery in Traveller ( need not be OTU)

[BwapTED]

@ combatmedic, I'm stating that in the US due to the effects of slavery less efficient Agricultural equipment was used because most of the farmers in the south where not doing the work themselves or paying a wage that they would have sort the most return on their outlay so they did not adopt more efficient technologies and practices, the legacy of this continues in to the 21st century.

I wont go in to the economics of the American failure to adopt the Stump-jump plow, but to say a lot more land could have bean brought under cultivation sooner if they had used the stump-jump after the initial clearing and came back in to off seasons to de-stump the fellow fields

That the issues you describe persisted after the end of slavery suggest slavery was perhaps not the key factor.
But I think we are looking at different ends of the spectrum. I'm talking big picture. Look at the productivity of 18Th and 19th Century slavery and its role in national and international economic development.
I would also suggest that you consider the economic effects (on the South) of the ACW and Reconstruction if you are looking at the slow adoption of certain technologies by farmers in the South. In particular, look at sharecropping and the impoverishment of the yeoman class. It takes capital to buy new equipment.
But it sounds as if you have indeed read up on this stuff.

 

[BwapTED]

Also, please note that the yeoman class did indeed work the land. And there were many of these men, free white citizens who owned their own property and worked it, but did not own slaves. Many smaller slaveholders also worked the land alongside their slaves.

As for the planters, there is plenty of evidence that a considerable number of them were interested in new agricultural developments. Journals covered agronomy. Men experimented with different forms of labor and time management, such as using clocks on some plantations.
And they were operating in a competitive marketplace for cash crops. Growing more cash crops meant making more money. So while you can argue that capital tended to be invested in land and slaves, land and slaves, at the expense of some other possibilities, I don't think there's a good argument that this did not work. It made people very wealthy. It fueled mills and met European and Northern demand for textiles and other products. It provided for a large part of revenues that governments used to create infrastructure.

Also note that many states had plenty of uncultivated land ready to be cleared. Stump jumping does not look so important when you can buy more land and chop trees down, put some slaves to work, and make $$$. Efficiency per acre is not the only important thing.

So while we agree that stump jump plows are quite useful things, I think we disagree about the overall importance of and effects of slavery.
I am happy to discuss this further. Possibly in a tangent thread?

It is relevant to a Traveller discussion to bring up the idea''slavery is inefficient and retards technological and economic progress.'' I happen to find the idea lacking (questionable support, too broad a generalization) in real world historiography and economics, but it could work very well in a Traveller game. I don't have to buy the concept as applied to the world economy emerging in the Early Modern Period, or to the United States , or whatever. I just have to think it works for game purposes under such and such circumstances.
I can imagine a society in which the concept holds true. And indeed, it might be true of some forms of slavery in some societies in the real world's past.
YMMV

 

[flykiller]

And there were many of these men, free white citizens who owned their own property and worked it, but did not own slaves.

heh. when you find out who were the biggest slave owners in the south ... a few thoughts fall into place ....

 

[samuelvss]

IIRC, in the OTU slavery was against Imperial law. But what "slavery" was in the OTU, and in any other society varies by context. The thread has, I believe touched on all the possibilities:

A. Legal Ownership, in the entirety, of another sophant, who has no legal rights at all, who had no input into their status.

B. Legal Ownership, subject to limitations in time, of another sophant, who has no legal rights at all, who had no input into the transaction.

C. Legal Ownership, in the entirety, of another sophant, who has no legal rights at all, who consented to the transaction creating their status.

D. Legal Ownership, subject to limitations in time, of another sophant, who has limited legal rights, who consented to the transaction creating their status.

E. As A., but limited to a single, geographically isolated legal jurisdiction.

F. As B., but limited to a single, geographically isolated legal jurisdiction.

G. As C., but limited to a single, geographically isolated legal jurisdiction.

H. As D., but limited to a single, geographically isolated legal jurisdiction.

I. De facto (and illegal) ownership of of another sophant, induced by fraud.

J. De facto (and illegal) ownership of of another sophant, initiated by force.

K. Coercive relationships which, while fully legal, limit the effective exercise of legal rights by a subject sophant to the extent that free will is overcome, and a state equivalent to I or J exists.

L. Coercive relationships which, though legally shady, limit the effective exercise of legal rights by a subject sophant to the extent that free will is overcome, without outright fraud or force, so that a state equivalent to I or J exists.

IMTU, which I try to model on the OTU, only H & K are permitted on member worlds of the 3I. I & J are actively enforced against by 3I's law enforcement, to include customs and immigration officials.

There are other legal possibilities, such that the initiation and transport was elsewhere illegal, but in protected by the resident jurisdiction. Some, such as K and L, are subjective as to what degree of coercion is required, and what the dividing line is between "legally shady" (e.g. holding passports until "early departure penalty" is paid) and outright fraud (e.g. contracts for "Indentured Nanny in Regina," and ends up in a brothel in Louzy).

Similarly, any punishment is, to some extent involuntary. Also, they are to some extent voluntary, if the conduct was clearly illegal and the possibility of punishment was known. Clearly, legal systems that create ex post facto laws can demolish this distinction.

In sum, where and when it happens, some "slavery*" is a clear crime (I & J), some is legal (A-H). The former will always exist, to the extent that crime will always exist; more in some contexts, and less in others. The latter will vary as widely as the legal landscapes exist, and will often be considered indistinguishable from the former by members of other societies.

Just my Cr.02


*I use quotations not to minimize dispute this as what laymen would call slavery, but to indicate that there are many other terms used in penal codes and civil law, (such as "abduction," "assault", "rape", "false imprisonment", etc.) that would cover a single period of such illegal slavery.

 

[BwapTED]

Nice post! There's a lot in that one.

More later...

 

[salochin999]

I haven't used slavery directly and probably would only do so in low tech worlds

(as the weight of actual historical practice shows it is less efficient except in specific circumstances e.g. extremely labor intensive cash crops like sugar that were only economic with slave labor because no one would do it voluntarily)

but imtu the main reason the Ancients uplifted humans, Vargr, Aslan etc was to use them as slaves in gladiator fights so I use the idea indirectly e.g. ruined Ancients arena with the creature lurking in the surrounding jungle the last living descendant of the bio-engineered super gorillas used in the arena.

 

[BwapTED]

Too many variables.

What kind of slavery?

What kind of " freedom"?

What is the labor supply like?

What factors exist that might draw workers away to other places?

How do international markets factor in?

What is the relevant technology used in production?

Etc.


Note that slavery did not vanish around the Modern world simply because some forms of slavery had proved ( or were imagined to be) inefficient. (It didn't entirely vanish, just became illegal and moved underground.) It was dismantled or phased out on a large scale for moral and political reasons by the British Empire. Other Western powers imitated that action, or enacted their own versions of the process.

Medieval Europe is a different case. The Church seems to have done a lot to contribute to gradual emanicipation. Ditto economic changes.

But it does seem notable that there were still slaves in Tibet when Mao, of all people, " liberated" the country. I think KSA still had legal slavery ( small scale) until 1962.
And slave raids were going for Sudan into what is now South Sudan in my lifetime.



YMMV

The applicability to Traveller seems clear to me. If you have an Imperium that bans slavery, it may be doing so for moral and political reasons as much as economics. Indeed, if all forms of slavery were so weak compared with other systems and modes that it could not compete, why would a ban be needed?
But Zhunastu gotta slang dem bots, right?
And the glorious Imperium brings civilization and freeeedom!
Now pay your taxes. Or die.

Again, as ever YMMV

 

[salochin999]

Production

When you look at the most basic and necessary activities: farming, fishing etc for food there is very little history of slavery. There is serfdom which is close but not much slavery.

On the other hand there is a lot of history of slavery around cash crops and luxury items.

To me this is a sign of very low productivity. If certain crops can't easily be produced by a peasant farmer in enough quantity to use as a cash crop i.e. sell the cash crop to buy food and have a decent amount left over then the only way it can be produced is by squeezing labor costs down to the minimum

So in a way it's wrong to say slavery is inefficient as it may be the only possible way to produce cash crops in conditions of very low productivity.

However it seems to me that as soon as technology comes along it becomes more efficient to have fewer but better paid and more motivated workers.

That to my mind is the situation when it comes to production: you need something that is being produced at such low productivity that labor's share of the reward is so low free labor won't do it.

#

If the above is correct then the only places with a demand for production slaves would be low tech planets in the backwoods whose local economy includes cash crop plantations and also have something valuable to trade that would make it worth while - so Free Traders bringing slaves to a TL3 world that has a lot of gems for example.

An exception might be danger i.e. mining some resource with a high death rate and a unit value too low for free labor to do it voluntarily

A second exception might be war captives - if a captor has them they might as well use them

A third might be experimentation

##

Non Production

This is a much bigger area and one where there is a lot more scope imo.

Luxury goods: in the past slaves were often the equivalent of luxury goods: house servants, maids, dishwashers, grooms etc - effectively the equivalent of the modern car, washing machine, dishwasher, mower etc

Involuntary Activities: sex

Soldiers/Bodyguards: boys taken at a very early age (5-ish) and brought up with a barracks as their family, Ghulams and Janissaries being the famous ones from history

Unclean: slaves taken for activities that are deemed unclean by a culture - for example executioners

#

I'd say the "luxury goods" aspect declines with technology but could still exist on low tech worlds

Slaves for sex still goes on in a lot of places, Ghulams still goes on in a few and for executioners within living memory at least

So again I'd say slavery is more likely to be a big thing on low tech worlds and even the demand for things like sex and ghulams might fade with high tech and robots.

##

Penal

Lot of places in history it could be a punishment for a crime usually debt.

##

so thinking about it some more some hooks that might fit

production
- remote region low tech cash crop slaves
- very dangerous resource extraction
- lost POWs being worked in some unknown location
- experimentation

non-production
- remote region low tech luxury goods slaves
- sex
- ghulams - could be an interesting idea to play with
- unclean tasks - could be interesting

penal
- debt payment - players offered a good deal on ship repayment on a world not knowing on that world unpaid debts -> slavery

 

[BwapTED]

Nice post, Salochin.

There's a lot of content there.

Slave soldiers is something I could see in either the OTU or some ATUs.
Indeed, maybe there are already slave soldiers in some published OTU stuff? I defer to the greater Travlore of other forumites on that count.


Somebody probably brought it up earlier, but if a world has a high enough tech level it may have robot slaves.

It could be something like droids a la Star Wars (esp. the Expanded Universe, where there are enough hints and historical bits about sentient droids that it really does start to look like slavery).

Replicants!

 

[flykiller]

robot slaves

that's not slavery. that's machinery.

of course one sees this ... de-anthropomorphization? ... forward-projected in the past. aristotle referred to slaves as "res", the greek word for "things". with the development of responsive machines this ideal is realized rather than imposed.

replicants

... which of course brings up the issue of engineered biology. where does the biochemical machine end and the man begin?

 

[Selandia]

Slave soldiers is something I could see in either the OTU or some ATUs.
Indeed, maybe there are already slave soldiers in some published OTU stuff? I defer to the greater Travlore of other forumites on that count.

Well, going back to the question where does "slavery" start? DS9 "Jemidar" and SG1 " Jaffa" are held "captive" through dependence. So you have there "armies of slaves" that are easily possible even at low tech level as junkies/zombies are available at "roots and berries" TL.

have fun

Selandia

 

[BwapTED]

Well, going back to the question where does "slavery" start? DS9 "Jemidar" and SG1 " Jaffa" are held "captive" through dependence. So you have there "armies of slaves" that are easily possible even at low tech level as junkies/zombies are available at "roots and berries" TL.

have fun

Selandia

I have not seen either show, but those cases do sound like a high tech form of slavery.
Your roots and berries comment reminds me of the Voodoo zombie, or at least a popular interpretation of what it may have been.

Drugs seem like a good way to go with slavery in some Traveller settings.

 

[BwapTED]

that's not slavery. that's machinery.

of course one sees this ... de-anthropomorphization? ... forward-projected in the past. aristotle referred to slaves as "res", the greek word for "things". with the development of responsive machines this ideal is realized rather than imposed.



... which of course brings up the issue of engineered biology. where does the biochemical machine end and the man begin?

Robots are machinery if they are just computer operated frames without psyches, sure.


But if they are intelligent, self aware beings? Sure sounds like slavery to me. In this thread, I think that what you and I might think of these hypothetical moral questions matters only in how we can apply it to the game. Some people in a given TU may think that only biological " sophonts " should have rights. Others may think that biology is not the crucial factor, but instead place the emphasis on the psyche.
Or maybe people readily accept that the smartest sort of droids are thinking beings, and just don't care. As you say, the idea of the slave as a machine person whose purpose is to serve. He thinks, yet is a "thing."


I mentioned TL. I think it matters with robots and AI and all that. Ditto biological constructs. Are we talking about androids, strong AI, positronic brains, etc. or just sophisticated machinery? Where is the line drawn between machine and intelligent creature? Plenty of good sci fi has been made about all this.

Indeed, the original robots, which IIRC are more like biological androids, were slave worker "machine" people . I mean from the Capek play, R.U.R.

 

[flykiller]

Where is the line drawn between machine and intelligent creature?

at the on/off switch.

 

[BwapTED]

at the on/off switch.

Good one, lol.

People have that, too. It just is harder to turn them back on than it is too turn them off.

 

[Selandia]

I have not seen either show, but those cases do sound like a high tech form of slavery.
Your roots and berries comment reminds me of the Voodoo zombie, or at least a popular interpretation of what it may have been.

Drugs seem like a good way to go with slavery in some Traveller settings.

The old Sci-fi trope: A traveller from TL 9+ arrive on a TL 1 or 2 world.... Of course a Laser weapon and some gizmo with solar recharge might make him look like God... but if there is local production of coca leaves and the traveller has the cookbook for Crack cocaine..... well the rest is your campaign :coffeesip: with armies of junkies fighting armies of Voodoo zombies (that was indeed my reference) in the service of the priests/magicians that were the officialdom when the spacer(s) landed.

have fun

Selandia

 

[Adam Dray]

at the on/off switch.

The Human Brain Has An On-Off Switch For Consciousness, Scientists Say (Huffington Post)

 

[BlackBat242]

The Human Brain Has An On-Off Switch For Consciousness, Scientists Say (Huffington Post)

He wasn't referring to putting humans in "sleep mode" or "on standby" - wh was referring to shutting down the power supply (heart) completely.

Robots/computers/machines can have their power shut completely off (and even have the power supply removed completely for extended periods) without any negative effects - humans/living beings cannot. Yes their heart can be replaced - but only if something else (usually a machine) takes over during the operation (or if the operation is done very quickly). An external power source (defibrillator) is also usually required to restart the replacement heart.

Robots/computers/machines can have their "brain" (CPU) replaced as well - perhaps by TL 14 that can also be done with living biological brains - but they can't have it removed and not replaced for years like a robot/computer/machine can.

 

[kilemall]

He wasn't referring to putting humans in "sleep mode" or "on standby" - wh was referring to shutting down the power supply (heart) completely.

Robots/computers/machines can have their power shut completely off (and even have the power supply removed completely for extended periods) without any negative effects - humans/living beings cannot. Yes their heart can be replaced - but only if something else (usually a machine) takes over during the operation (or if the operation is done very quickly). An external power source (defibrillator) is also usually required to restart the replacement heart.

Robots/computers/machines can have their "brain" (CPU) replaced as well - perhaps by TL 14 that can also be done with living biological brains - but they can't have it removed and not replaced for years like a robot/computer/machine can.

Yet.

Remember, we are dealing with scifi.

 

[BwapTED]

Low Passage seems to be a form of placing humans on " standby", no?

Not that this is the only way to interpret it.