So how many Squadrons are in an SDB Factor?

[Commander Truestar]

Hi Folks!


As I am working on, and almost done with, my 5FW expansion spreadsheet I was wondering...

Just how many ships or squadrons of SDB's are in an "SDB Factor" as used in the game "The Fifth Frontier War"?

Does anyone have any ideas on this?
Can you recommend any method of calculating this out?


Thank you!

Marc

 

[McPerth]

I don't believe there's a true equivalency.

The only reference I know about it is in JTAS #9 TNS (page 6) where it says about Regina:

While all personnel at Regina Naval Base were put on ful lreadiness, all ten heavy system defense boats where launched (...)

(bold is mine)

See that in FFW game, Regina has 10 SDB factors, so hinting each factor represents one such Heavy SDB (probably plus supporting smaller ones and auxiliares).

 

[Commander Truestar]

I don't believe there's a true equivalency.

The only reference I know about it is in JTAS #9 TNS (page 6) where it says about Regina:


(bold is mine)

See that in FFW game, Regina has 10 SDB factors, so hinting each factor represents one such Heavy SDB (probably plus supporting smaller ones and auxiliares).

Thanks!

I did not recall that from whjen I read it.
I need to re-read the war material >

Marc

 

[Spartan159]

The Cr64 question now is, Just what is a Heavy SDB? I'm guessing the 400 ton Dragon SDBs are not heavies.

 

[pendragonman]

The Cr64 question now is, Just what is a Heavy SDB? I'm guessing the 400 ton Dragon SDBs are not heavies.

Well, a 500 kiloton non jump capable battleship is just a heavy SDB

 

[mike wightman]

I assume the Regina heavy SDBs are 50kt monitors.

 

[McPerth]

I assume the Regina heavy SDBs are 50kt monitors.

I agree in principle, but, as in most ocasions, FFW doesn't match with HG. Assuming HG rules, and that most SDB are home built, see that:

• Smaller than 1000 dtons SDB (so unable to mount a single bay) are nearly useless against main battle units (at least those at TL 14-15, so main Zhodani/Imperial units)
• Regina, being TL A in the game (and its J1 planetary fleet seems to confirm this TL, later retcons notwithstanding) would have, at most, N size rating ships (so, under 50000 dtons), due to computer limits. Also their 4 rated computers would give them a sigificant disadvantage over the 8 rated computers first line Zhodani may have, and their armor would be limited to 10...
• Louzy's SDB fleet, painted as decisive for FFW in SMC, would be formed, at most, by C sized ships (so under 4000 dton, again, computer constaints at TL 8) with 2 rated computers, that would not have been a match to a single Zhodani light cruiser or even sloan equivalent escort (assumed with 8 rated computer), Also, their armor would be limited to 8, making them quite vulnerable...

So, the FFW SDB factors may well not represent really a number of ships, but it's global effect, (even while in HG would be quite limited in most cases)

 

[Dagrill]

I assume the Regina heavy SDBs are 50kt monitors.

Is a Monitor heavier than a 'heavy' SDB.

I tend to go: 400t turret SDBs
1 to 2kt bay 'heavy' SDB's (I call them Flotilla Leaders)
30kt spinal meson gun planetoid monitors
for my mobile planetary defences (strictly MTU though)

Kind regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I agree in principle, but, as in most ocasions, FFW doesn't match with HG. Assuming HG rules, and that most SDB are home built, see that:
Regina, being TL A in the game (and its J1 planetary fleet seems to confirm this TL, later retcons notwithstanding) would have, at most, N size rating ships (so, under 50000 dtons), due to computer limits. Also their 4 rated computers would give them a sigificant disadvantage over the 8 rated computers first line Zhodani may have, and their armor would be limited to 10...
So, the FFW SDB factors may well not represent really a number of ships, but it's global effect, (even while in HG would be quite limited in most cases)

Thing is if I was Duke of Regina, I would be buying my SDB's from outside and
sending them to Efate for maintenance (Efate is TLE), it does mean you need more to cover for 25% absence from system each year though...

Kind Regards

David

 

[McPerth]

Is a Monitor heavier than a 'heavy' SDB.

I tend to go: 400t turret SDBs
1 to 2kt bay 'heavy' SDB's (I call them Flotilla Leaders)
30kt spinal meson gun planetoid monitors
for my mobile planetary defences (strictly MTU though)

Once again according CT:HG:

See that the 400 dton SDBs, with, at most, factor 5 missile batteries, are nearly (if not outright) useless against heavy armored ships with good nuclear dampers. The 1-2 kdton ships ,able to have bays, are a little more useful (if in enough numbers).

Thing is if I was Duke of Regina, I would be buying my SDB's from outside and
sending them to Efate for maintenance (Efate is TLE), it does mean you need more to cover for 25% absence from system each year though...

Yes, I'd also want (budget allowing) higher TL ships, but Regina Colonial counters seem to be TL10 (low combat factors, J1 cruisers), and they would be easier to send to Efate for maintenance...

Also, if I was the fleet aldmiral, I'd want to hae some IN monitors to defend such important bases as Regina or Efate...

Side notes (none of them voids, nor even diminish, the rightness of your points):

1. I'm not sure the Duke of Regina has much to say on what Regina local government decides to buy as its defense fleet, as I'm not sure he has too much to say in internal affairs, but that's for another thread
2. Efate is TL D, not E, at least in FFW

 

[Commander Truestar]

Hi folks,

I found a PDF, and I honestly can not say where, entitled "The Imperial Navy Organization (IN) "

Near the bottom of page one of that four page document, I found the following:

"Flotilla – Commanded by a Captain (O-06) each Flotilla contains of 4-12 non-jump-capable
ships (i.e., system defense boats, fleet tugs) assigned to a starbase. This formation is
used exclusively by the Colonial Star Patrol."

On page four, it says:

System Defense Boats are 400 to 800 dTons with armor and weapons. They are
commanded by a Lieutenant (O-03). SDBs are only assigned to the System Defense
Forces.

Marc

 

[Garnfellow]

After digging through my old notes last night, I think 1 SDB factor is roughly equal to one 1,000t SDB, or presumably a squadron of smaller sized SDBs -- say, 4-6 or maybe 6-8 200t SDBs.

This is not cut-and-dried, however. Regina has 10 SDB factors; a TAS bulletin describes the deployment of "all 10 heavy SDBs," so some people have concluded 1 factor = 1 SDB. Others feel Regina should have far more SDBs available.

The Invasion Earth boardgame gives the Solomani 34 SDB wings for defense of Terra. A wing is about 50 individual SDBs, so 1,700 SDBs. If you assume Terra of 1002 is pop A and TL D, using the 5FW calcs you come up with about 1,500 SDB factors.

 

[McPerth]

After digging through my old notes last night, I think 1 SDB factor is roughly equal to one 1,000t SDB, or presumably a squadron of smaller sized SDBs -- say, 4-6 or maybe 6-8 200t SDBs.

See that those under 1000 dton SDBs, while useful against piracy of for custoums duties, are useless against main combat fletes, as I already expressed before..

This is not cut-and-dried, however. Regina has 10 SDB factors; a TAS bulletin describes the deployment of "all 10 heavy SDBs," so some people have concluded 1 factor = 1 SDB. Others feel Regina should have far more SDBs available.

See that those Heavy SDBs could well be what we usually call monitors, difference being irrelevant in a FFW like game. Even tenderless BRs may be listed as SDBs...

The Invasion Earth boardgame gives the Solomani 34 SDB wings for defense of Terra. A wing is about 50 individual SDBs, so 1,700 SDBs. If you assume Terra of 1002 is pop A and TL D, using the 5FW calcs you come up with about 1,500 SDB factors.

Just a point: in 1002, when Earth is invaded, Earth is TL E, not D, as many Terran troops are TL 14.

Off course, that does not void you numbers, as in the table in David Jaques-Watson's page on Determining Planetary Forces in the Fifth Frontier War (I assume where you draw you numbres from) TL 13 and 14 are in the same line.

 

[Garnfellow]

Just a point: in 1002, when Earth is invaded, Earth is TL E, not D, as many Terran troops are TL 14.

Off course, that does not void you numbers, as in the table in David Jaques-Watson's page on Determining Planetary Forces in the Fifth Frontier War (I assume where you draw you numbres from) TL 13 and 14 are in the same line.

Quite right: Terra and a good chunk of the Confederation was presumably TL E in 1002; my bad.

Based on that analysis of the Invasion Earth counters, "Solomani forces were 43% TL14, 42% TL13, 11% TL12, and 4% TL11. . . . It looks like they were still in the transition from TL13 to TL14."

I had used David Jaques-Watson's excellent page, but I've also discovered that T4 Imperial Squadrons uses a nearly identical table.

 

[jec10]

Quite right: Terra and a good chunk of the Confederation was presumably TL E in 1002; my bad.

Based on that analysis of the Invasion Earth counters, "Solomani forces were 43% TL14, 42% TL13, 11% TL12, and 4% TL11. . . . It looks like they were still in the transition from TL13 to TL14."

I had used David Jaques-Watson's excellent page, but I've also discovered that T4 Imperial Squadrons uses a nearly identical table,

And the advantage of Imperial Squadrons is that you can also use it to calculate FFW-like counters for those major worlds that can also field their own squadrons of jump-capable ships.

I'm using it to flesh out Lemish and neighbouring subsectors to refight the Rebellion-era Vargr incursions.

 

[Drakon]

I'm using it to flesh out Lemish and neighbouring subsectors to refight the Rebellion-era Vargr incursions.

Are ya now. We need to talk I have been trying to work this out myself.

 

[jec10]

Are ya now. We need to talk I have been trying to work this out myself.

One issue is that Lemish subsector itself has barely any defence forces. I can see why the MegaT authors chose it because, absent the Corridor Fleet, its worlds are largely defenceless going by the rules provided for determining them. Hence I've had to look further afield (Khukish, Plunge, etc) for deployable local forces (fleet/army) that could have been engaged in defending Lemish.

The Vargr can generate a smallish but effective force to go on the offensive.

 

[Drakon]

One issue is that Lemish subsector itself has barely any defence forces. I can see why the MegaT authors chose it because, absent the Corridor Fleet, its worlds are largely defenceless going by the rules provided for determining them. Hence I've had to look further afield (Khukish, Plunge, etc) for deployable local forces (fleet/army) that could have been engaged in defending Lemish.

The Vargr can generate a smallish but effective force to go on the offensive.

That is my feelings as well. Lemish relied too much on the Imperial fleet for its defenses and when they abandoned us, well, we did the best we could, but it wasn't effective.

What kind of forces do you have the Vargr deploying and from which directions?

 

[jec10]

That is my feelings as well. Lemish relied too much on the Imperial fleet for its defenses and when they abandoned us, well, we did the best we could, but it wasn't effective.

What kind of forces do you have the Vargr deploying and from which directions?

Arr Laen B7969AC-A 9898 SDB=100 Sqn=2CR(5-2-1 J1 PSL) Bns=1000-A TU=2x5Jump,1x10Inf
Daekvagul A769AAA-D SDB=1500 Sqn=BR(6-4-3 J3 PSL),CR(5-3-2 J3 PSL),AR(6-0-0 J2 SL) Bns=15000-D TU=5CInf,2x1CArmd,2x20ElInf,2x5Jump
Ackaeck B586757-9 E69B SDB=1 Sqn=0 Bns=150-9 TU=10Inf,5Inf
Anglorr C546877-7 SDB=5 Sqn=0 Bns=200-7 TU=20Inf
Kughoelvor A657978-C SDB=120 Sqn=1BR(4-3-3 J2 PSL) BNs=12K-C TU=1x1CInf,1x10Inf
Uekhourg A677A74-D SDB=15C Sqn=1BR(6-5-4 J2 PSL),1CR(5-3-3 J3 PSL),1AR(6-0-0 J2 SL) Bns=100K-D TU=4x5CInf

 

[Hyphen]

How did I miss this thread??

"Heavy" means H-E-A-V-Y. No way in HG is anything under 1000t even going to be considered in a capital ship engagement.

Scorpion-class SDB - 2000 tons

SDB-B106LJ2-A89900-09709-0 MCr2,365.42 2,000 tons
batt bear 1 11 2 TL=15
batt 1 11 2 Crew=28
Cargo=200. Fuel=400. EP=400. Agility=6. Troops=0.

Wasp-class SDB - 1000 tons

SDB-A106MJ2-A59900-60009-0 MCr1,341.28 1,000 tons
batt bear 1 1 1 TL=15
batt 1 1 1 Crew=20
Cargo=50. Fuel=210. EP=210. Agility=6. Troops=0.

Both ships are from "The Fourth Imperium", Travellers' Digest #7.

Yes, they are TL 15, so you'll have to use the High Guard Shipyard program to tone them down to Regina's TL (it was originally TL 10 but I think it was ret-conned to be higher - TL 12, maybe??)

Perhaps I should also point out that the naval base has 18 Scorpions and 50 Wasps against 20 Atlantics (75kt cruisers) and two Regals (75 kt battlecruisers), although none of the big ships have operable spinal mounts. ("Phew - that's a relief!!" - unnamed short-lived Imperial Naval rating).

Oh yeah, and the Navy has an orbital fort plus 2 deep-site meson guns.

Finally, if you want FFW-level SDB's check out this on my site:
==> Tavonni Repair Bays
==> Other Assorted Notes
==> Determining Planetary Forces in the Fifth Frontier War

...and scroll down to where TL is cross-referenced with Pop to give you a table of SDB Factors.

(And jec10's SDB figures are correct, BTW!)