Non OTU: So, interesting idea here. Want opinions.

[Grav_Moped]

It's explosive separation.

It can be. If you want to be very sure you're outside of the 100D radius of the drop tank when you light off the Jump Drive, shattering it into a whole bunch of tiny pieces with correspondingly small 100D radii is one way to do it.

Or just give the tank (or the ship dropping it) the ability to run away at some multiple of 10m/sec² with an ordinary maneuver drive. Doesn't take long...

 

[Condottiere]

Since I'm interested in carrier operations, you have to check exactly how fast you can decouple from the host spacecraft, which might vary across editions, certainly by method.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Since I'm interested in carrier operations, you have to check exactly how fast you can decouple from the host spacecraft, which might vary across editions, certainly by method.

Carriers? Don't need drop tanks then, just good launch tubes. Burn the jump fuel from the carrier's tanks, then fling the jumping ship away with the catapult.

Yeah, that's probably not what you were talking about.

 

[Condottiere]

Current edition from external grapples, minimum three (times six minute) rounds.

Problem with launching from internal bays, is that while mass is lessened, volume is not.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Yeah, that's probably not what you were talking about.

I, on the other hand, was thinking about a cross between an XBoat Tender and Battlestar Galactica...

 

[aramis]

Earlier today, I was struck by the thought of a Jump Projector. Some kind of station that would be able to generate a jump bubble outside of the station, surrounding another, nearby ship. It would then send the ship off on a jump to wherever (within range of the jump engine contained within the station). Similar concepts are common across SF.
This would obviously be massively advantageous to merchants on well-travelled lines and also for establishing semi-static defensive lines of SDBs that can be shipped fairly easily between systems. Being able to fill an extra 10% (minimum) of a ship's hull with cargo, weapons or armour would be terrific for anyone who invents this technology.
Is there any indication of why this technology is seemingly not present in the OTU? It doesn't seem too advanced for the Imperium or Darrians, and especially not for the Ancients. Is it simply impossible with canon jump physics?
I'm thinking of introducing it anyways into my home grown setting, so general feedback and comments are welcome also!

The rules for it in MegaTraveller (MT) are that it causes a misjump of the target. I can't recall which volume; it might be in the MTJ.
It's great for stranding attackers, but lousy for conducting trade.
Plus, it's too high tech for most of the OTU published eras until m1900.

T5 renames it to Jump Inducer, says thus:

JUMP INDUCER<break /><break />
R=7<break /><break />
MCr1.0<break /><break />
Turret<break /><break />
Base TL= 17<break /><break />
Electronic<break /><break />
Jump Inducer channels the energies of a ship’s Jump Drive into disastrous jump-like effects on a target: it induces not a Jump,

pretty nasty none the less, but as for shipping? nope.

 

[aramis]

Now, I deviate from the Megatraveller rules on this in another way, in that if you are stopped, jumping from a known system to a known system, have skill level 1 pilot, navigator, and engineer, you don't have to roll for a misjump unless you aren't keeping up on things like the navigation program, maintenance on the ship, etc.

Skill 0 in anything means rolling to see if you do it correctly.

The routine tasks, if done by a person with Att 7 and skill 1, get a +2 on 2d6, stat landmarks 4/9/14. Take extra time, the TN is 3+. the competent simply cannot fail that, as MT does NOT automatically fail on a nat 2. Heck, given stock MT , Att5 and skill zero can't fail if they take extra time.

Skill 0 is intended to be able to do the routine stuff with the extra time.

The labels are pretty accurate if you base them on skill 1 and attribute 5-9.
Simple 3+ Skill 0 and att 5+ cannot fail, skill 1 and att 1-4 cannot fail, either.
Routine 7+ Skill 1 att 5-9 has a +2, needs a total 7+, so nat 5+. 5/6 chance with a little time pressure. But when they can take extra time, they cannot fail.
Difficult 11+ Joe needs an 11+ on 2d6 plus his mods... Nat 9+, or 10/36. If time less an issue, extra time makes it Routine (and 5/6=25/36)
Formidible's 15+ means Joe Average need a nat 13. He cannot do it at listed, but has a 10/35 chance with extra time.
Impossible 19+. Joe clearly can't roll 17+ on 2d, nor even with extra time where he needs a nat 13.

 

[Spinward Flow]

I, on the other hand, was thinking about a cross between an XBoat Tender and Battlestar Galactica...

YEET!

Jumps ...

 

[whartung]

Since I'm interested in carrier operations, you have to check exactly how fast you can decouple from the host spacecraft, which might vary across editions, certainly by method.

Doesn't matter. You could have to go outside with pliers and unbolt them individually and deploy the craft in time. The companion of "no stealth in space" is "no surprise in space". Any major combat operation will have hours of "reaction time" to deploy and organize small craft.

No, ingress, recovery may happen under time pressure if you're trying to jump out of an engagement. But, that's a separate issue, and not readily considered. Launch tubes solve a problem you don't have, and don't help in problem you may have.

 

[Enoki]

The routine tasks, if done by a person with Att 7 and skill 1, get a +2 on 2d6, stat landmarks 4/9/14. Take extra time, the TN is 3+. the competent simply cannot fail that, as MT does NOT automatically fail on a nat 2. Heck, given stock MT , Att5 and skill zero can't fail if they take extra time.

Skill 0 is intended to be able to do the routine stuff with the extra time.

The labels are pretty accurate if you base them on skill 1 and attribute 5-9.
Simple 3+ Skill 0 and att 5+ cannot fail, skill 1 and att 1-4 cannot fail, either.
Routine 7+ Skill 1 att 5-9 has a +2, needs a total 7+, so nat 5+. 5/6 chance with a little time pressure. But when they can take extra time, they cannot fail.
Difficult 11+ Joe needs an 11+ on 2d6 plus his mods... Nat 9+, or 10/36. If time less an issue, extra time makes it Routine (and 5/6=25/36)
Formidible's 15+ means Joe Average need a nat 13. He cannot do it at listed, but has a 10/35 chance with extra time.
Impossible 19+. Joe clearly can't roll 17+ on 2d, nor even with extra time where he needs a nat 13.

I'm aware of the MT rules on doing a jump, the problem I found is that the multiple rolls necessary, as given by the rules, add up to a significant chance--about 30 to 40% that some sort of misjump will occur every time you jump. I can't see that as being something any society would widely accept as normal. So, I house ruled differently, that's all. I also imposed extra conditions like no inertia, the ship must be stopped, to that.

 

[Grav_Moped]

YEET!

Jumps ...

Yeet, Away, Jump.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The companion of "no stealth in space" is "no surprise in space". Any major combat operation will have hours of "reaction time" to deploy and organize small craft.

Ah, the "all seeing" fallacy.

The simple fact of the matter is that while "cloaking device invisibility" is probably not technologically feasible ... LOW OBSERVABLE most definitely is, even in space. It just takes a lot of prep time, planning and investment of resources to make a Low Observable condition possible and effective (meaning, it's not something you can do off the cuff).

"Any major combat operation" starts sounding like fleet on fleet action (cue: Legends of the Galactic Talking Heads Heroes), which starts getting into "line of battle" style engagements. Contrast that possibility with what is essentially a skirmish action using "lightning strike" tactics done at "absurd relative velocities" intentionally planned and executed to reduce response times. Such a skirmish action could easily be used as a precursor for a "major combat operation" to soften up defenses and sow confusion in preparation for the heavy hammer strike of the main force following behind the skirmishers. The skirmishers "punch a hole" through the defenders, which the rest of the fleet can then exploit (ala maneuver warfare).

It is the nature of sensor technology that "you can't see everything all at once" (so to speak).
Sure, you can train your sensors on a specific patch of sky and get a pretty decent depth of field on the returns, but you have to narrow your search in order to achieve that sensitivity. Yes, you can progressively scan the volume of space around you (ala radar beam sweeping for pings), but you aren't going to get a real time update of everything within the closest light hours. Even military sensors are limited to a resolution range of light SECONDS ... which is still pretty decent in terms of distances (don't get me wrong, SPACE IS BIG!) ... but that doesn't ipso facto mean that adversaries are going to be "hours away" the instant they appear on your sensor scopes.

My point being that there is a broader range of possibilities on a continuum than a matter of boolean (Y/N?) outcomes to be concerned with here. Combat in space is LOOOOOOOONG RANGE compared to a terrestrial combat range. And even if missiles can't cross that distance "all that quickly" (even at 6G+) ... the light from lasers sure can(!) ... so just because the distances are large, doesn't necessarily mean you're invulnerable to attack.

The "reality" of space conflict is much more complicated than your overly broad sweeping statements make it out to be.

 

[McPerth]

The rules for it in MegaTraveller (MT) are that it causes a misjump of the target. I can't recall which volume; it might be in the MTJ.

Yes, it cause the enemy to missjump, as I quoted, but if someone is interested in jump portals they could use a similar technology. I guess if they are coordinated they could jump, instead to missjump...

The routine tasks, if done by a person with Att 7 and skill 1, get a +2 on 2d6, stat landmarks 4/9/14. Take extra time, the TN is 3+.

In fact, as you correctly quoted lower in the post, as the thresholds are 3/7/11/15, with a +2 you set your task to 5+. 1+ if you take extra time and pass your determination check. This does not change the trueness of your post, though.

Nonetheless, making routine jumps automatic or nearly so doesn't seem wrong to me. If you fail even iwth snake eyes, that means 1 jump in 36 has problems (not always missjump), and, given the stakes, this would make the trade quite less safe than 3I assumes.

I used as a house rule that routine jumps were safe as long as the jump number was equal or less tahn double the skill of the navigator. So a navigator 1 made safe any jump 1 or 2, while a navigator 3 made safe up to jump 6, as long as they were routine jumps (assumed to take their time to be cautious, etc). Of course, hasty or otherwise hindered jumps (as with a damaged ship) were never safe...

 

[aramis]

Doesn't matter. You could have to go outside with pliers and unbolt them individually and deploy the craft in time. The companion of "no stealth in space" is "no surprise in space". Any major combat operation will have hours of "reaction time" to deploy and organize small craft.

No, ingress, recovery may happen under time pressure if you're trying to jump out of an engagement. But, that's a separate issue, and not readily considered. Launch tubes solve a problem you don't have, and don't help in problem you may have.

There are two kinds of situations where surprise is possible.
One is exit FTL (any FTL).
The second is obscured by terrain. Basically, hidden behind a body.

Now, FTL, who is surprised varies by type of FTL.

In the case of main Traveller rulesets, Jump Drive, both mobile sides get surprised. Reaction to surprise is the important part. In the case of immobile elements, the incoming jump vessel has the benefit of surprise.

In the case of Stutterwarp, the arriving or overtaking ship always can surprise sublight targets. Why? Because FTL Stutterwarp cannot be detected until it drops below C; the light can't get past the leading edge of the field.

In the case of settings with FTL sensors and non-alternate brane FTL drives? depends upon the relative speeds thereof, but usually, stealth is unlikely.

An alternate brane FTL drive and sensors that work on that brane? Sublight targets may be surprisable... depends upon relative speeds.

It also depends upon whether T or XYZ is a fixed privileged reference frame.

 

[whartung]

The simple fact of the matter is that while "cloaking device invisibility" is probably not technologically feasible ... LOW OBSERVABLE most definitely is, even in space. It just takes a lot of prep time, planning and investment of resources to make a Low Observable condition possible and effective (meaning, it's not something you can do off the cuff).

A primary job of the military is looking for things. Patiently watching empty space for something to happen. They spend a lot of time and money on it, for all the reasons that they don't like dangerous things "suddenly" showing up.

The areas around planets and such are particularly noisy environments, much easier to get lost in. Deep space, much less so. But, the military knows these things and prepares appropriately for it. Also, by the time of large deep space fleets, it's a recognized problem. Sure, there can always be intelligence failures, but that's a different problem. It behooves parties to have a solid foundation about what's going on within their star systems, through either space based or planet/moon based sensor suites. We've all read the website about how we can detect a flashing LED from beyond Pluto, or whatever the stark reality that these people, ships, and systems have to operate in. And, it's pretty stark. And starships have a lot of power. And if Jump flashes are canon, that just makes things worse. I would imagine in most any well monitored system, any Jump flash will be tracked to its destination, and if not, any large amount of unknown jump activity will raise awareness.

"Any major combat operation" starts sounding like fleet on fleet action (cue: Legends of the Galactic Talking Heads Heroes), which starts getting into "line of battle" style engagements.

Carriers are line of battle ships. We're not talking operations with a Ship Boat and a Free Trader here.

but that doesn't ipso facto mean that adversaries are going to be "hours away" the instant they appear on your sensor scopes.

100D for Earth at 6G is 1hr 45m. Even half of that distance is an 1hr 15m trip.

Of course, there's no intelligence on jump arrival. Anything you can expect is 2 weeks old.

If there's no jump flash, and you've made you ship super cold, and had you vector pre-plotted to perfection, there's still the ambiguity of jump arrival. 168 hr +/- 10%. That's a window of 32 hours. The hot tip is to send in a lot of ships hoping that they're evenly distribute across that window, and the few that hit the "sweet" spot and jet on in, make their attacks, fly by, and jump out. Set up an operation with 200 ships, 20 jumping each day. Over 10 days, those ships that can make good attacks, make them, shooting at targets of opportunity. Like that 300 second (or minute, or whatever it was) BSG episode. Bound to get some hits, may lose some of your own ships, depending on size and the whats waiting in the target system. Every couple of hours, here comes another streaking, high speed vessel, blasting lasers at whatever they can, wreaking whatever havoc they can, and then they fly by, out of range, hard to catch, and jump.

But I'm not sure thats an efficient technique. It's probably better to jump all 200 in, into the mid-outer ranges from the target, let the fleet accumulate over 32 hours, and push on when assembled.

Because the combat problem isn't surprise. It's not whether a ship is prepped or not. It's the fact that a bunch of bad guys showed up, and, barring dumb luck that something friendly is arriving, help is two weeks away. A week to send for help, and another for the cavalry to come back. 32 hours is nothing on that time scale. Assemble the fleet 40 hours from the target (so if someone wants to come out and engage you, the fleet will arrive by the time they get to you). So, from the first ship arrival, you can be on target in at most roughly 80 hours. With everyone waving their flags and lined up on that open field.

That's the real surprise. The surprise that your battle fleet just left and the enemy just showed up with no one to fight them off. Strategic surprise is what matters moreso than tactical surprise at operations of this scale.

 

[McPerth]

In the case of Stutterwarp, the arriving or overtaking ship always can surprise sublight targets. Why? Because FTL Stutterwarp cannot be detected until it drops below C; the light can't get past the leading edge of the field.

I'm afraid this is not entirelly correct...

FTL in 2300AD can be detected by the gravitic sensors as a line of points. This is the basis of shadowing ships, as commented in the strategies in the scenarios Lone Wolf and Tree Blind Mice, both published in Challenge issues 33 and 37 respectivelly...

 

[Spinward Flow]

We've all read the website about how we can detect a flashing LED from beyond Pluto, or whatever the stark reality that these people, ships, and systems have to operate in.

You can do it if you know EXACTLY where to look ... and you know EXACTLY what you are looking for ... when the source of the signal is DELIBERATELY transmitting via a high gain antenna for the explicit purpose of being detected.

Which then begs the question ... if you can detect a flashing LED from beyond the orbit of Pluto, why couldn't you detect a contact binary moon orbiting an asteroid in the main asteroid belt until you get really close? I'm pretty sure that the albedo radiation wattage from that contact binary moon exceeds the wattage output of a mere LED, given that the power source illuminating that celestial body is the local star.

any Jump flash will be tracked to its destination

That's a LOT of wishful thinking you've got going on there.

Fast Radio Bursts (FRBs) and Gamma Ray Bursts (GRBs) are happening out in deep space quite often, for example. but It's exceedingly rare for one of these events to be traced back to a specific source or event, even with modern telescopes and observatories.

Now, granted, a jump flash may have a particular "signature" to it, depending on the technology used in the drives (meaning that One Size Might Not Fit All when it comes to jump flashes, such that Imperial, Aslan, Zhodani, Vargr, etc. jump flashes are different in details, even if they all happen). Likewise, a detection of a jump flash does not ipso facto provide the detector with course, velocity, tonnage, hull configuration, armament, crew compliment, transponder signal, etc. etc. etc. information that can perfectly pinpoint an incoming starship and what it's going to do over the next few hours from solar orbits away.

Sure, the flash might be bright enough to be detected ... but TRACKING after detection is a VERY DIFFERENT PROBLEM.
Please don't get detection and tracking confused. The difference between those two lies at the very heart of Low Observability as a concept and practice.

I would imagine in most any well monitored system, any Jump flash will be tracked to its destination, and if not, any large amount of unknown jump activity will raise awareness.

Except that jumps aren't but so precise. it's not like every incoming starship jumps into the same 100km x 100km x 100km patch of sky. When the circular error probable (CEP) of incoming jumps can range up to 100 diameters of a gravity well (using the jump shadow deliberately for breakout from jump) you're looking at needing to track TRILLIONS of cubic kilometers of space simultaneously across distances that are going to easily exceed 2-3 light seconds.

Even with a jump flash telling you "there's a needle in that haystack over there!" ... actually FINDING that needle without going over to the haystack and sifting through it (preferably with a magnet) is a whole different story.

 

[whartung]

Which then begs the question ... if you can detect a flashing LED from beyond the orbit of Pluto, why couldn't you detect a contact binary moon orbiting an asteroid in the main asteroid belt until you get really close?

Because the detectors weren't designed to detect cold, dead, rocks of that resolution. They were using something different (some kind of radar is a guess, I did not watch the video). Cold, dead rocks of that size aren't dangerous, so no real work has been put into ensure they can be detected. I'm sure if at some point it becomes quite important to detect those, the sensor suites will be bumped up as best they can to accomplish the task. Right now, it's not a problem that needs solving.

Sure, the flash might be bright enough to be detected ... but TRACKING after detection is a VERY DIFFERENT PROBLEM.

As you say.

You can do it if you know EXACTLY where to look

The flash gives you "exactly where to look". Now the TRILLIONS of cubic kilometers are drastically, and dramatically reduced. And, you're now looking for something that's pumping out a lot more energy than a blinking LED.

From this article:

But that doesn’t mean we can’t still spot it (Voyager 1) in the sky from Earth. Using a network of 10 radio telescopes called the Very Long Baseline Array, astronomers found and photographed the glow coming from Voyager’s main transmitter. The signal is beaming from the satellite at 22 watts, “which is comparable to a typical police car radio or – in visible light – a refrigerator light bulb,” says the National Radio Astronomy Observatory (NRAO) team that tracked down the little probe that could.

Even though Voyager’s transmission broadcasts at such low power, they say, it is significantly stronger than any of the naturally occurring radio waves around it. Another instrument, called the Green Bank telescope, picked out Voyager from the background noise within one second.

And, yes, "they knew where to look". It's also TL7 tech. I hear they have better stuff out there in futureland outer space.

Sensors are pretty good at comparing frames of data to each other to see what's "new" from the last frame. The game is to discern signal from noise. I'm betting a Jump flash is, all told, rather loud.

Get a jump flash (now you know where to look), point one of these fancy "less than a second" space scanners at it to detect the hot, glowing, probably-more-than-22-watts bogey to grab an initial vector, and hand it off to a more detailed oriented tracking sub system. If they light up a drive to maneuver, well, it gets even easier.

Remember, unidentified, suddenly appearing out of Jump moving blobs are Dangerous. And much like humans are particularly good at noticing motion (if not exactly what is in motion) as a base defense against TIGER!!!??, oh, no, just the cat, the military and local control networks will strive to maintain this kind of coverage in systems where they feel its worth knowing these kinds of things. Will that back water X starport dirtball be able to do this? Probably not. But the military is kind of cool in making stuff like this so they can take it with them, if they ever happen to find themselves stuck in some back water X starport system.

Finally, we don't necessarily need to know exactly what this intruder is. Just enough to decide whether to send Sam out in a Vacc Suit with the pliers to start unbolting fighters.

 

[Spinward Flow]

yes, "they knew where to look".

With a sensor net the SIZE OF AN ENTIRE PLANET.
That's what the Very Long Baseline Array is ... a network of multiple radio tracking stations that can effectively (together) form a receiver the size of Terra (more or less). They had to schedule time on ALL of the stations to ALL look at the single patch of sky at the same time to accomplish the feat.

And again, they were looking for a High Gain Antenna that was deliberately broadcasting a signal intended to be received that wants to be found.

If they light up a drive to maneuver, well, it gets even easier.

And if they don't ... for "a while" after breakout ... all you've got is a jump flash and a rapidly expiring "use by date" on how long that information is good for. As time passes, the radius of distance the starship could have moved expands exponentially until you can detect it again and start tracking it.

 

[kilemall]

A couple of IMTU rules that might help further the discussion….

I have an overly complex sensor subgame that yields sort of like CT results. At the core of the detection system is the model of computer- model# x 100000km. Bis models are rendered + .5, so model 1/bis is 1.5, model 2/bis is 2.5, etc.

The idea here is that each increase of globular volume requires exponential computing power and sweeps to detect unknowns further out.

Normal CT ranges therefore work out to model 1/bis computers for civilian and model 6 for military.

The other relevant mechanic is line of battle, a trope embedded in High Guard. Since I am looking to make HG a LBB2 maneuver game, I need to make that work.

Physically blocking with frontline ships is patently absurd, LoGH does it with extended heavy forward glacis shields creating a wall which isn’t in RAWtech.

So I assume a wall of EW, with frontline ships applying a negative DM of their computer models to ships in a passive non firing mode behind them. The backline ships are detected, but not subject to effective target solutions.

This only works in a 90 degree arc to either side of the blocking ship. So a second formation of attacking ships from the opposite direction can fire directly at the backline- usually necessitating another line of frontline ships to block from that direction. So a big part of the game is to force thinning out the line by a combination of direction of attack and destruction/ disabling of able ships.

As damage accumulates, more and more ships get to zero accel and if they are protected the formation stops being maneuverable. The admiral must then decide which ships are worth saving and which ones to scuttle to regain maneuverability. This may be determined as much by surviving crew as the ship damage states.