So... Merchant Prince?

[rancke]

One other point. The time variable. If you are aiming for X point in space (closest to the planet) and you don't arrive in the 168? hours you plan, the planet has moved or, if early, hasn't arrived at your target position. Thus, in any version you are farther from the planet than you wanted to be. Just another variable... :toast:

Depends on how far the planet moves in 34 hours. If, for example, you're going to a world that moves 200 diameters in 30 hours, you aim for where it's going to be in 168 hours. If you arrive any time from 15 hours early to 15 hours late, you'll be precipitated out somewhere along the jump limit. If jump variation is distributed along a bell curve, almost every jump you make will fall a lot closer to the average than the outside limits of +/- 17 hours.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Depends on how far the planet moves in 34 hours. If, for example, you're going to a world that moves 200 diameters in 30 hours, you aim for where it's going to be in 168 hours. If you arrive any time from 15 hours early to 15 hours late, you'll be precipitated out somewhere along the jump limit. If jump variation is distributed along a bell curve, almost every jump you make will fall a lot closer to the average than the outside limits of +/- 17 hours.


Hans

You aren't aiming for the planet itself. You are aiming for a specific point in space 100D out. The Earth moves ~2,400,000km in 24 hours. If you aimed for 100D out, trailing from the Earth's orbit (1300000km) you will be 3,700,000km away if you arrive 24 hours late. That's a considerable difference from 100D...

 

[rancke]

You aren't aiming for the planet itself. You are aiming for a specific point in space 100D out.

Read what I wrote again. I said to aim for the spot where the destination world would be in 168 hours. That's a specific spot along the orbit, not 100 diameter out. But if you arrive while there's a planet in the vicinity, that planet's jump limit wil intercept you and precipitate you out before you reach the spot you were aiming for.

The Earth moves ~2,400,000km in 24 hours. If you aimed for 100D out, trailing from the Earth's orbit (1300000km) you will be 3,700,000km away if you arrive 24 hours late. That's a considerable difference from 100D...

So if you aim for where the Earth will be in 168 hours, you'll wind up emerging somewhere along the jump limit as long as you're not more than 13 hours early or late.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Read what I wrote again. I said to aim for the spot where the destination world would be in 168 hours. That's a specific spot along the orbit, not 100 diameter out. But if you arrive while there's a planet in the vicinity, that planet's jump limit wil intercept you and precipitate you out before you reach the spot you were aiming for.


So if you aim for where the Earth will be in 168 hours, you'll wind up emerging somewhere along the jump limit as long as you're not more than 13 hours early or late.


Hans

Got it. More coffee...

 

[Jame]

I still thought it was pretty good, even if it needed a WHOLE lot more trade goods.

But yeah, merchant marines as the military marines ... yeah. Not so good now as I think about it.

 

[Plankowner]

OK, off the wall question...

Where does it state, in ANY addition that the +6d6 hours is a random effect that cannot be predicted or determined?

Seems to me, that randomness could be due to stellar phenomena, so the Navigator/Astrogator could determine the exact length of the Jump (timewise) as part of his calculations and then there is no "randomness" in the actual jump so fleet jumps are perfectly possible and allowed.

 

[jawillroy]

OK, off the wall question...

Where does it state, in ANY addition that the +6d6 hours is a random effect that cannot be predicted or determined?

Seems to me, that randomness could be due to stellar phenomena, so the Navigator/Astrogator could determine the exact length of the Jump (timewise) as part of his calculations and then there is no "randomness" in the actual jump so fleet jumps are perfectly possible and allowed.

Not off the wall at all, AFAICT. I can't speak for any of the later versions, but the LBBs never really specify either way. I've been through periods of interpreting it either way.

Right now, I choose to interpret LBB-era interstellar travel as having significant room for minor error: safe enough if you take basic precautions, but not so predictable that you can have a whole battle fleet POP out of jump simultaneously, or end up precisely when or where you'd like within, say, a few hours. I think it fosters a different mindset - one I prefer to when everything works like clockwork.

 

[rancke]

Where does it state, in ANY addition that the +6d6 hours is a random effect that cannot be predicted or determined?

Marc Miller's essay about jump space states that the duration of jump is fixed the instant jump begins.

Page 92 of MT:Imperial Encyclopedia has you rolling to establish jump duration after you've engaged the jump drive.

One ramification of being able to predict jump duration would be the option to abort the jump if the duration is above average and try again until you get one that gets you there in less than the average time. Since we never hear of any such option, it probably doesn't exist.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

...random jumps Bleh!

One ramification of being able to predict jump duration would be the option to abort the jump if the duration is above average and try again until you get one that gets you there in less than the average time. Since we never hear of any such option, it probably doesn't exist.

Or maybe it's not done because under the rules where jump duration and precipitation arrival point is totally random you don't know your duration until AFTER you've burned all or most of your jump fuel. So even if you could somehow abort at that point you're talking hours at least, and expense to refuel before trying again. With the same stupid random chances, possibly meaning an even longer jump.

EDIT: Oh wait. I think I may have misread your intent there. You might not be meaning that the way I took it. Let me try that again below the other way I'm seeing it now...

Let me say again, I don't care one whit for the canon of random jump. I have my own nice sane set of rules to keep me happy instead

Marc Miller's essay about jump space states that the duration of jump is fixed the instant jump begins.

I'm pretty sure all that was meant by that was that there was no way to change the duration of jump once begun. I don't think there was intent to imply that one could abort the jump when the duration was known.

 

[far-trader]

One ramification of being able to predict jump duration would be the option to abort the jump if the duration is above average and try again until you get one that gets you there in less than the average time. Since we never hear of any such option, it probably doesn't exist.

Looking at this another way on second reading I wonder if you mean not in the context of the RAW but in the context of alternate rules where jump duration is predictable in advance of jumping. Such as in MTU.

I have no such problem with the "let's try it again and see if we get a quicker jump" because the time is fixed for any specific jump.

In MTU:

Roll the random time and precipitation location per RAW. It's a metagame roll, not an actual game universe effect. I don't keep track of the specifics for each jump though, I just fudge that the differences are due to the changes in the orbital positions between for any given two jumps that are otherwise similar.

This roll is the actual fixed, predictable, and repeatable time and precipitation location for a specific jump. Specifics being ship size, jump distance, start and end points, ship vector, and jump initiation time. And the time and precipitation location are very well know to a precise degree. And can be calculated well in advance if all the variables are known. Changing the variables can increase the chance of misjump or no jump.

This makes pre-plotted jump tapes possible and useful. Though they have to be ordered for the specific ship and circumstances. Miss your jump window (time, location, and vector) and your jump will be messed up.

This also permits fleets to make coordinated jumps. All ships agree on a departure and arrival point then calculate their jumps to coincide. One can even time the arrivals to be staggered if desired. And all this is known before anyone jumps.

Likewise ships can employ the black globe tactic of jumping in and drifting under globe until they reach their attack point. Try that if the jump duration and precipitation location is actually random and unpredictable.

And preserving your vector is impossible with any useful application if jump duration and precipitation location is totally random. It may even be lethal and will almost always be inconvenient.

Further it permits ships to post a jump precipitation watch that isn't on duty for hours or rotating shifts to be sure the ship is at stations when it drops out of jump space.

And of course there is the bit of colour text somewhere about the first clue that the players aboard have that they have misjumped is they don't drop out of jump at the precise time they should. Or they drop out suddenly before the jump clock has counted down to precipitation.

No randumb jumps for me

 

[rancke]

Or maybe it's not done because under the rules where jump duration and precipitation arrival point is totally random you don't know your duration until AFTER you've burned all or most of your jump fuel. So even if you could somehow abort at that point you're talking hours at least, and expense to refuel before trying again. With the same stupid random chances, possibly meaning an even longer jump.

Referring again to p. 92 of IE, the computation of jump coordinates takes place before the jump drive is engaged. It takes an average of 20 minutes. I see no reason to suppose you can't change your mind and redo the computations if for some reason you decide not to go through with the jump, and I see no reason to suppose any significant amount of fuel would be used up while you're doing the computations.

Let me say again, I don't care one whit for the canon of random jump. I have my own nice sane set of rules to keep me happy instead

Good for you, but you're house rules are totally irrelevant to a discussion about the canon of random jump.

I'm pretty sure all that was meant by that was that there was no way to change the duration of jump once begun. I don't think there was intent to imply that one could abort the jump when the duration was known.

What would prevent you from doing so? As long as you're just doing the computations, why shouldn't you be able to do them well in advance of the planned departure time?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Looking at this another way on second reading I wonder if you mean not in the context of the RAW but in the context of alternate rules where jump duration is predictable in advance of jumping. Such as in MTU.

Plankowner asked about statements in any of the editions. I assume he referred to published editions, not to your game notes nor to mine.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

To clarify, my included points (and one or two I might have missed) are that several canon functions are said to be doable but I find it hard to grok just how that is possible given the interpretation that the random jump time and precipitation coordinates are in actual fact random in the game universe*. I felt I had to briefly describe my way to explain my interpretation of the rules and the problems with random jumps and the rest of the described jump effects.

* at least as I understand Marc saying in said article

Even the canon for fleet jumps is still random, just a little less random iirc and all ships share it (in CT at least, that may differ in MGT). How does that make sense?

As for permitting re-rolling the jump duration without penalty* then one might as well say all jumps take exactly the same time, every time, all the time. And that time is the shortest possible because won't everyone be doing just that between jumps? Running the plot over and over until it comes up with the shortest time?

* 20 minutes is not a penalty either, in most cases, since canon says hours are generally required between jumps for routine maintenance, so the Navigator is running the numbers how long on average until they come up 1s (or close to) on the D6s? For that matter wouldn't there be a "catalog" of jumps already done so there isn't even the need to spend that 20 minutes unless it's a unique or rare jump?

 

[HG_B]

I can't recall reading in CT, Trav4, MT or MGT that the jump duration can be known by a person BEFORE the jump actually happens. As far as I can tell from those rules, it is an unknowable variable due to the imperfect understanding of jump space.

 

[rancke]

Even the canon for fleet jumps is still random, just a little less random iirc and all ships share it (in CT at least, that may differ in MGT). How does that make sense?

I don't think fleet jumps are even mentioned in CT. As I recall, that particular rule comes from a Q&A in one of the Travellers' Digests, so technically it is an MT rule (if it is canon at all).

The way it works is that you spend a lot more than 20 minutes (ten times more?) to do the calculations, and the results are ten times more accurate. As a result, the fleet jumps in spread out (in time) after 168 hours +/- 1.7 hours instead of +/- 17 hours. A single ship could do the same, but the average time for the jump would then be 168 hours PLUS the 3 hours extra it took to calculate the jump. A slight loss for a commercial ship.

As for permitting re-rolling the jump duration without penalty* then one might as well say all jumps take exactly the same time, every time, all the time.

Or one could say that it isn't done because you can't predict the jump duration until the moment you initiate jump, at which point it is too late to abort.

And that time is the shortest possible because won't everyone be doing just that between jumps? Running the plot over and over until it comes up with the shortest time?

I've always assumed that you needed to know the exact time and space you're going to jump from. Jump five minute earlier or later or a few km distant and you'll need an entirely new computation. So it's not worth while starting to do your sums until you know the exact moment you're going to reach the jump limit. But otherwise you are absolutely right.


Hans

 

[aramis]

In Mega, coordinating jumps reduces variability of the group to a ±1.68 hour window of the overall ±16.8 hour exit window.

That pretty explicitly makes it impossible to jump a fleet in in formation, but it makes reforming much faster.

Other editions are far less clear. (T5 will clear it up quite a bit, tho'.)

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

I have recently purchased this (from Amazon as I prefer not to pay full price).

Lots of different Merchant type careers including Slaver, rather darker than CT, but fits in nicely with the Golden Empire Aslan.

Rules on running your own business, not tried.

Expanded trade rules, but don't really improve on exiting, just more types of cargo.

Rules on Privateers, I like these and am running a privateer type campaign in the Trojan Reaches.

and some more space ships.

In the long term I'm not keen on this type of book as my copy of High Guard is suffering serious detioration after about a year, or so. I much prefer hard backs.

Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

I'm allowing my ships to jump simultaneously on the same jump plots, after all you can't escort a ship if you arrive at different times.

I emailed mongoose as it wasn't clear and they confirmed that as long as ships are jumping on the same vector with same velocity they would arrive together.

Regards

David

In Mega, coordinating jumps reduces variability of the group to a ±1.68 hour window of the overall ±16.8 hour exit window.

That pretty explicitly makes it impossible to jump a fleet in in formation, but it makes reforming much faster.

Other editions are far less clear. (T5 will clear it up quite a bit, tho'.)

 

[rancke]

I'm allowing my ships to jump simultaneously on the same jump plots, after all you can't escort a ship if you arrive at different times.

Sure you can. You just send the escort in far enough ahead of time to be there at the earliest moment the escortee can possibly arrive. (If you have a steady stream of escortees, you establish a permanent task force to gueard the ships as they arrive).

I emailed mongoose as it wasn't clear and they confirmed that as long as ships are jumping on the same vector with same velocity they would arrive together.

This kind of chopping and changing annoys me. Either Mongoose didn't realize how things actually worked (in previous incarnations), or they decided to change it. In either case they made the Traveller Universe a little bit blander. Jump uncertainty is a feature of the jump drive. It's one of the problems the inhabitants have to deal with. "Dealing" with it by changing the rules to eliminate the problem is not my idea of a good job.

I suppose I can always hope that the person you communicated with was mistaken.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Jump uncertainty is a feature of the jump drive.

So, it now is an uncertainty of Jump Space. Not that big a deal as you still don't know your exact arrival time.