So... Merchant Prince?

[rancke]

So, it now is an uncertainty of Jump Space. Not that big a deal as you still don't know your exact arrival time.

I didn't say it was a big deal. Just that it's an unneccessary change and not an improvement, thereby violating my personal rule of thumb for canon changes: "If it's not broken, don't change it; if it IS broken, DO change it."



Hans

 

[HG_B]

I didn't say it was a big deal. Just that it's an unneccessary change and not an improvement, thereby violating my personal rule of thumb for canon changes: "If it's not broken, don't change it; if it IS broken, DO change it."



Hans

Then in your game, don't change it. Fixed.

 

[rancke]

Then in your game, don't change it. Fixed.

Now why didn't I think of that? Oh, wait! I did. 30 years ago or thereabouts. I know that it's my game and that I can do whatever I want with it. I don't need to be told that.

Thing is, what I do in my Traveller Universe that doesn't conform to canon has very little common ground with the material other people produce. How could it, when they don't know and don't care what variations I introduce in my TU? In fact, the only material produced by other people that I can use (without having to go through the bothersome process of revising it) is material that conforms to the same basic assumptions that my TU is built on. So what I want to do with my TU is to keep it as compatible as possible with what the majority of other Traveller authors, fans and professionals alike, produce. Hence it annoys me when TPTB change the basic rules for no good reason.

To give an example: Someone writes a nice adventure with the PCs crewing a small armed ship that is hired to escort a merchant through a pirate-infested system. Only, he based the jump mechanics on the assumption that the escort and the merchant would be able to arrive in the system together. Which my players know for a fact is not possible.

Problem. Not fixed. Not fixable. I can't use that adventure no matter how good it may be.


Hans

 

[far-trader]

The problem is canon is important to some, for keeping their game more open to continued support, and backwards compatibility for all the material that encompasses, as well as the common reference frame. Playing fast and loose with canon is not desirable for those reasons. This isn't new though, Mongoose certainly didn't start it.

And of course for those looking to contribute to Traveller lore in some meaningful way, canon is also a point to shoot for.

This idea that canon is unimportant is a failing imo. As is Mongoose's apparent license to change canon "if it's cool" change... seems to conflict with the other guideline they operate under of respecting past canon. I think the stand is cool trumps past, the way I read it. Not saying one should be a slave to canon of course. By all means update the game where it makes sense*, fix old broken inconsistencies. Change for the sake of change? Or because it's kewl? Seems silly to me, but whatever, it's the way it's being done and I don't see there's anything we mere consumers can do but complain to the wind or accept it.

* where it actually makes sense, not just because the latest author doesn't see the sense of past choices

 

[Dagrill]

That would be splendid if you have more than one ship, but my players have only a single ship to escort small convoys of 1 to 3 small merchants from Palindrome/Sindal to Albe/Sindal and back again. Also a planet with a population in the hundred thousnds and TL11 can't afford loads of Escorts, which is why I was quite specific in my question.

Also on a fleet level all offensive maneuvres against strongly held systems would be doomed to failure as the ships arrived peicemeal and scattered.

Sure you can. You just send the escort in far enough ahead of time to be there at the earliest moment the escortee can possibly arrive. (If you have a steady stream of escortees, you establish a permanent task force to gueard the ships as they arrive).

Hans

 

[rancke]

That would be splendid if you have more than one ship, but my players have only a single ship to escort small convoys of 1 to 3 small merchants from Palindrome/Sindal to Albe/Sindal and back again.

So? That doesn't mean that what you said was true. It just means that there are problems in the universe that can't be solved with a single ship[*]. You made a statement of fact that I disagreed with. I contradicted you and explained why I disagreed.

[*] As an aside, I don't think this is one of those problems. From Albe your convoy can jump to Dolberg, which should be safe enough, seeing as they have 300 million people to pay for system defenses. From there, your escort jumps to Vume and scans for pirates. A number of hours[**] later the merchants jump, arriving in the Vume system one by one. They proceed to the starport and refuel, them move out to the jump limit.

The next step is the tricky part where a certain amount of risk must be run. The escort jumps ahead. The merchants stay for the agreed-upon number of hours and then jump. Should a pirate show up while they're without the escort, they have to jump out straight away and risk arriving at Palindrome before the escort arrives. However, the odds that one will arrive at Vume during that window are probably rather low. There remains the possibility that one was lurking somewhere in the Vume system all along, but since such a pirate will know for certain sure that he can't catch refuelled ships outside any jump shadow, odds are very good that he won't bother to break cover.

[**] 34 hours to be absolutely sure, less if you're willing to run a certain amount of risk.​

Also a planet with a population in the hundred thousands and TL11 can't afford loads of Escorts, which is why I was quite specific in my question.

You've lost me. I don't recall any question. Unless you're talking about the one you posed to Moongoose, and I don't see the relevance.

Nor am I sure what planet you're talking about, but if they can't afford an escort and need one, they have a problem. What does that have to do with the underlying physical laws of the universe?

Also on a fleet level all offensive maneuvres against strongly held systems would be doomed to failure as the ships arrived piecemeal and scattered.

True, unless the attacker gets smart and jump in somewhere in the system where the defenders aren't and assemble before the defenders can respond.

But, once again, that just means that you have a problem if you want to jump in an attacking fleet on top of a defensive force.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

My specific question was to Mongoose, but the route you suggest would work I assigned 40 TL11 SDB's and a similar number of large armed merchantmen to Dolberg, but Realgar has a ton of ships
(146 ships, 1,140 SDB and 6,000 small craft) and a gas giant. Albe has even more at higher tech. I assumed Pirates would avoid these systems and concentrate on Vume, or Palindrome itself.

I think Mongoose has got it right though as how are the Aslan supposed to attack these heavily defended systems with a bunch of Ihatei?

I also don't see the point in playing to 80's rules thirty years on, other games (eg D&D) are wildly different to their 70's predecessors and to me the Mongoose version feels like the Traveller I remember playing (T20 didn't to me). I'll probably look at this T5 when it comes out as well though, fingers crossed that it doesn't contain any rebellions and virus'

 

[rancke]

I think Mongoose has got it right though as how are the Aslan supposed to attack these heavily defended systems with a bunch of Ihatei?

How are the ihatei supposed to attack heavily defended systems even if they can jump in as a group?

Be that as it may, and assuming for purposes of argument that the answer you got from Mongoose reflected an official retcon and not just someone making a mistake, Mongoose has got it right in the sense that they can change anything they want to change. It's still a change and it still (IMO) does not serve a good enough purpose to be warranted.

I also don't see the point in playing to 80's rules thirty years on...

Not 80's rules. A game universe that has been growing for 30 years. And the point was elucidated in a couple of recent posts:

Thing is, what I do in my Traveller Universe that doesn't conform to canon has very little common ground with the material other people produce. How could it, when they don't know and don't care what variations I introduce in my TU? In fact, the only material produced by other people that I can use (without having to go through the bothersome process of revising it) is material that conforms to the same basic assumptions that my TU is built on. So what I want to do with my TU is to keep it as compatible as possible with what the majority of other Traveller authors, fans and professionals alike, produce. Hence it annoys me when TPTB change the basic rules for no good reason.

And:

The problem is canon is important to some, for keeping their game more open to continued support, and backwards compatibility for all the material that encompasses, as well as the common reference frame. Playing fast and loose with canon is not desirable for those reasons.

Or to put it another way, "If it isn't broke, don't fix it." Our last couple of exchanges appear (to me) to be you attempting to show that it was broken and me refuting your arguments. I'm certainly not arguing that Mongoose doesn't have the right to change things.

I'll probably look at this T5 when it comes out as well though, fingers crossed that it doesn't contain any rebellions and virus'

Or large-scale ihatei invasions.


Hans

 

[HG_B]

Problem. Not fixed. Not fixable. I can't use that adventure no matter how good it may be.


Hans

Wow, that's easy for me as a GM to fix. But, to each his own.

 

[Dagrill]

Hi,

with regard to the Ihatei I am (slowly) redesigning the mongoose warships as I'm not happy with them. However size will always be an issue as the advantage lies with the larger craft despite numbers

I've also reread the email from Mongoose and decided it's actually rather vague and I interpreted the way I wanted it to read, but it could be interpreted differently.

Sorry due to time constraints I don't read every post and may have missed a page, or two, I take your point.

Kind Regards

david

Be that as it may, and assuming for purposes of argument that the answer you got from Mongoose reflected an official retcon and not just someone making a mistake, Mongoose has got it right in the sense that they can change anything they want to change. It's still a change and it still (IMO) does not serve a good enough purpose to be warranted.

 

[Shonner]

Was basic economics/trading taught in the Belters book? I should probably try to find my 30-year-old copy. I found Imperium though. I knew I had it stored away somewhere.

ADDED:

I personally have no problems with Mongoose Traveller depicting merchant marines as armed guards in uniform whether it's wartime or not. I'm not looking to start another pirate flame war. And just for fun, Google or Bing "star patterns trading public executions".

 

[aramis]

I personally have no problems with Mongoose Traveller depicting merchant marines as armed guards in uniform whether it's wartime or not. I'm not looking to start another pirate flame war. And just for fun, Google or Bing "star patterns trading public executions".

The problem is that it shows that (1) the author was rather ignorant, (2) the author was unwilling to look up a term, and (3) the editor was no less ignorant.

The term "Merchant Marine" has a common meaning, specifically referring to the civil merchant shipping systems in the US, and UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth.

It's one of those errors that discredits the author and editor because its one that is readily caught, and wasn't. And one that, in the context of that supplement, is inexcusably sloppy.

 

[saundby]

As Aramis said, this isn't just a matter of "depiction". It's a first class boner. It's like basing a class on a pun, with the designer being someone who didn't get the joke.

Vacc Suit: Worn by facilities cleaners in corporate hotels.
Sea Scout: Some one who looks for bodies of water on new planets.
Star Ship: a craft used for transporting naturally occurring fusion power sources.
Mars: A planet ruled by women. If it were ruled by men, it'd be Paws.

Yeah, it's like that.

 

[Shonner]

I disagree. There are job titles used today for people doing different jobs now than the people the job title was named for. Merchant Marines today can be called US contractors for all I care. They dress like GS employees wearing lanyards. Let me know if the 57th century is still like that.

 

[aramis]

I disagree. There are job titles used today for people doing different jobs now than the people the job title was named for. Merchant Marines today can be called US contractors for all I care. They dress like GS employees wearing lanyards. Let me know if the 57th century is still like that.

The term's had a stable meaning for over 200 years. Some ignorant designer doesn't bother looking it up, and you expect us to not be peeved?

It's one of those cases where the career name needs to be redone to "Line Security" and the fluff text adjusted to match, and a revised version done. There are several other, not so obvious, bone-head bits.

It's no Mongoose GTFT equivalent, anyway.

 

[Shonner]

Well, when you read "Merchant Marine" in the text, just add the word "Mariner" or "Sailor" or "Seaman" after it. Even though there is no water to be seen in space.

It's a game people. It's not like any of this is real, you know. I doubt the word "Navy" will be used in space, personally, if we do get jump drives (which we won't).

What did the author say when you told him about his error and lack of knowledge?

 

[saundby]

The book was written in English in the early 21st century for readers using the same language at that time. Or at least it was supposed to be. The "how do you know what it'll be in the XXth century argument" doesn't apply.

It may just be a game that's been written, but the language is a writer's profession, it is not a game. A writer is paid for the ability to relate concepts to the reader. Not to make a hash of things by twisting terms through ignorance. Minor errors happen, it's the nature of the process. This is not a typo, deviation in usage, or something of the sort. It's a career based on ignorance of a term that is a major theme in the book.

Aside from that, did we really need another military/paramilitary career in Traveller, in a trade-themed book? An actual merchant marine career would not only have extended Traveller nicely, but fit the theme of the book. The career doesn't need renaming, it needs to be redesigned to fit the name.

 

[mbrinkhues]

To make matters worse it's not the first blunder of the Author. He is also responsible for Mercenaries and it's weapons. Those have been completely redone in CSC. So it's "strike two" against him and that makes the "too lazy to look it up" explanation even more likely.

Add in that Traveller so far has used "current day english" for careers and claiming "bad writer" is a given

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, let's have a return to sanity here...

"The term "Merchant Marine" has a common meaning, specifically referring to the civil merchant shipping systems in the US, and UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth. "

Yeah, they don't exist in the Third Imperium - thus, we considered the term 'free'. You won't have to go many light years to find this a common practice in science fiction. If this were a 2300AD book, the argument might carry some weight, but this far ahead? It really can be whatever we (and you!) want it to be.

I can guess what the immediate response to this will be, so let me first say that if you look through Mongoose's catalogue, you will see that we are not completely without knowledge of things Naval.

"There are job titles used today for people doing different jobs now than the people the job title was named for. "

This.

"It's no Mongoose GTFT equivalent, anyway. "

That is absolutely _not_ the purpose of this book. Why would it be?

"The "how do you know what it'll be in the XXth century argument" doesn't apply."

Of course it does. Again, it is a fairly common approach in science fiction.

"did we really need another military/paramilitary career in Traveller, in a trade-themed book? "

Why not? For the sake of a tiny amount of page space, why not?

These books are intended to be toolkits, from which you can pick up the bits you like for your campaign, and leave the others for another day and another task. You don't really think that everything in Psion is intended to be shore-horned into the same campaign? Merchant Prince is no different.

In theory, there should perhaps be combat-related careers in every similar book to allow us to cover the players who like to use them, across every campaign type.

"To make matters worse it's not the first blunder of the Author. "

Right.

The gentleman concerned has written literally _thousands_ of published pages. You think you could do that amount of work without having two things crop up that people do not agree with? If so, send me your CV. We'll talk.

"An actual merchant marine career would not only have extended Traveller nicely,"

Good idea, write it up and send it in to S&P.

 

[rancke]

"The term "Merchant Marine" has a common meaning, specifically referring to the civil merchant shipping systems in the US, and UK, and the rest of the Commonwealth. "

Actually, it's a much broader term than that:

Definition of MERCHANT MARINE
1: the privately or publicly owned commercial ships of a nation
2: the personnel of a merchant marine; specifically : a member of a merchant marine

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merchant marine​

Yeah, they don't exist in the Third Imperium - thus, we considered the term 'free'.

Nations still exist in the 53rd Century. Commercial ships still exist. The term is not as free as you thought.


Hans