Social Climbing

[Golan2072]

The thread about experience got me thinking: can you improve your Social Standing after chargen? I actually see this as potentially the easiest characteristic to improve; you get rich, you live large, maybe you do great deeds, then you climb the social ladder... This could actually be the framework of a campaign - from rags to riches.

Oh, and, historically speaking, in some places certain noble titles were up for sale...

So how do you handle social climbing in your Traveller campaign?

 

[rancke]

The thread about experience got me thinking: can you improve your Social Standing after chargen? I actually see this as potentially the easiest characteristic to improve; you get rich, you live large, maybe you do great deeds, then you climb the social ladder... This could actually be the framework of a campaign - from rags to riches.

Soc isn't like the other attributes (I'm tempted to say that it isn't like real attributes ). Strength, Dexterity, Endurance, Intelligence, Education -- these are all intrinsic; take a man and dump him anywhere in the universe and they remain the same. Social standing is extrinsic; it is conferred on you by your neighbors. Take a man and dump him in a different society, and his social standing may remain the same or it may change drastically; it all depends on his new neighbors.

Oh, and, historically speaking, in some places certain noble titles were up for sale...

In Ancient Rome your status depended in part on your fortune. To be a senator you needed to own 1,000,000 sestertii; to be a knight you needed to own 400,000. (You also needed to convince the censors that you were worthy of being a senator or a knight).

I recently had an idea for a society where your social standing depended on how much you paid in taxes. (The more, the higher standing).


Hans

 

[Golan2072]

Soc isn't like the other attributes (I'm tempted to say that it isn't like real attributes ). Strength, Dexterity, Endurance, Intelligence, Education -- these are all intrinsic; take a man and dump him anywhere in the universe and they remain the same. Social standing is extrinsic; it is conferred on you by your neighbors. Take a man and dump him in a different society, and his social standing may remain the same or it may change drastically; it all depends on his new neighbors.


In Ancient Rome your status depended in part on your fortune. To be a senator you needed to own 1,000,000 sestertii; to be a knight you needed to own 400,000. (You also needed to convince the censors that you were worthy of being a senator or a knight).

I recently had an idea for a society where your social standing depended on how much you paid in taxes. (The more, the higher standing).

This could be an interesting mechanic; you gain wealth, you can go up in status, and, maybe if you're rich and/or powerful enough, a Count or Marquis will offer you his daughter's hand...

 

[Ulsyus]

I recently had an idea for a society where your social standing depended on how much you paid in taxes. (The more, the higher standing).

Hans

Would that be how much they paid gross, or how much they donated to the state or to state-approved charities? If the latter, it becomes a bit more like old 19C philantropy, which is still an interesting way to generate social standing in a society.

This could be an interesting mechanic; you gain wealth, you can go up in status, and, maybe if you're rich and/or powerful enough, a Count or Marquis will offer you his daughter's hand...

Climbing lower and middle levels may simply be a matter of how much cash you have, as well as behaviour. For higher ratings, could you just have PCs lauded publicly, granted honours, and knighted or better for their services to the Count/Duke/Empire?

 

[Golan2072]

I'd like to have mechanics for social climbing. Probably spending enough money per month for 3 or so months can get you up in social standing, and spending even more can catapult you up quickly, and that's until SOC 9 (including). By SOC A, this is nobility, and the character has to be granted a title, but those will probably be for sale, at least "robe nobility" (i.e. hereditary official positions as opposed to "old" nobility with their "blue blood"). Marrying into nobility will also catapult your social standing.

 

[BlackBat242]

Would that be how much they paid gross, or how much they donated to the state or to state-approved charities? If the latter, it becomes a bit more like old 19C philantropy, which is still an interesting way to generate social standing in a society.



Climbing lower and middle levels may simply be a matter of how much cash you have, as well as behaviour. For higher ratings, could you just have PCs lauded publicly, granted honours, and knighted or better for their services to the Count/Duke/Empire?

Most Americans have no knowledge of Andrew Carnegie as the immigrant son of poor parents who became a railroad and steel magnate who was rather ruthless in business - they only know him from the nationwide system of "Carnegie Free Libraries" that revolutionized learning and public access to books & magazines, as well as for the Carnegie Corporation of New York, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Carnegie Institution for Science, Carnegie Trust for the Universities of Scotland, Carnegie Hero Fund, Carnegie Mellon University and the Carnegie Museums of Pittsburgh.

African-Americans might also know him as a large benefactor of the Tuskegee Institute under Booker T. Washington for African-American education. He helped Washington create the National Negro Business League.



Similarly, they might have a vague memory from school history of Leland Stanford and Cornelius Vanderbuilt as railroad tycoons - but most know about Stanford and Vanderbuilt Universities.



In both cases, had the US still been part of the British Empire (or the Commonwealth) they would certainly have been knighted onto one of the various orders for public service.

 

[rancke]

I'd like to have mechanics for social climbing. Probably spending enough money per month for 3 or so months can get you up in social standing, and spending even more can catapult you up quickly, and that's until SOC 9 (including). By SOC A, this is nobility, and the character has to be granted a title, but those will probably be for sale, at least "robe nobility" (i.e. hereditary official positions as opposed to "old" nobility with their "blue blood"). Marrying into nobility will also catapult your social standing.

I would prefer guidelines that left a good deal up to roleplaying rather than out-and-out mechanics.

I recently came across an article that propounded that social status is a function of several factors which are weighed differently in different societies. I forgot to bookmark it, silly ass that I am, but its was things like ancestry, wealth, political power, breeding/manners, station in life. That's why the prosperous butcher may defer to the impecunious woman living in genteel poverty and the impoverished noble in exile gets invited to parties that the lower-class prospector-turned-millionaire are not welcome at.


Hans

 

[Reban]

I agree with Hans about leaving "a good deal up to roleplaying rather than out-and-out mechanics."

But let me just put a concept out there that just formed in my head.

If Strength can be modified by drugs or equipment why can't Soc be modified by situation?

Travellers visiting a closed or xenophobic society might suffer -1 to there Soc scores, while an Imperial Noble encountering a local noble might have a +1 advantage to his Soc.

A set of guidelines for the Ref is all that's needed rather than a detailed mechanic and it can be adapted to fit the feel of YTU. Characters still have a "Core Soc" but in a particular situation, like spending credits freely as mentioned above or gaining some sort of title, affects their Soc in play.

 

[Ulsyus]

Similarly, they might have a vague memory from school history of Leland Stanford and Cornelius Vanderbuilt as railroad tycoons - but most know about Stanford and Vanderbuilt Universities.

In both cases, had the US still been part of the British Empire (or the Commonwealth) they would certainly have been knighted onto one of the various orders for public service.

Yeah, that's close to my point. Up until a certain point social class can be bought with specie and the correct behaviour, and after that point it requires the establishment to give the nod.

One has to be accepted by the existing members of that class, otherwise they're just a social climber with money but no class/clue/hope.

 

[Selandia]

Agree with Hans and Reban.

Social interactions are at the core of Traveller and I respectfully believe that rules' mechanics on that matter are nothing more than the fundations of a common understanding of how various factors are interlinked.

Your rolled Soc is just a base reference for the mainstream Soc of the society in which you are born and is an utmost volatile charactheristic. The place, the time, the function, the standing into the function, the lookl like...speak like... will all play a role. Still, looking like, walking like, talking like a well educated gentlebeing usually beat a ranting smelly junky when it come to first impression; henceforth that basic Soc roll.

Being a noble on terra circa 1792 would have you beheaded in France and politely addressed in Britain. Being a soldier made me a near parriah in 1972, in the Veitnam era (even in Canada) while being one today, post 9-11 would confer near hero status (as long as it is praise rather than veteran benefit that are distributed). Having a criminal record will disbar you of some job while it is a prerequisite for higher employment in others... Your are a professor politely adressed by all in the University, but the moment you step in the subway you are just an old man standing in the way of people in a hurry.

have fun

Selandia

 

[rancke]

One has to be accepted by the existing members of that class, otherwise they're just a social climber with money but no class/clue/hope.

But in many societies your income and/or fortune translates pretty straightforwardly into social status. The small businessman whose business grows big moves from the lower middle class to the middle middle. When he expands and become the owner of a chain of businesses, he moves into the upper middle class. And if he becomes rich enough, he may move up into the lower upper class.

In the same way, a starship crewman might be lower middle class, a starship officer might be middle middle class, a starship captain might be upper middle class, and a starship owner might be lower upper class. With, perhaps, free traders being a step lower across the board.

So if your character rolls a 2 for Soc and gets a job as an astrogator, his Soc really ought to be upped to 6 or 7. And if it rolls an 11 for Soc and winds up as an engine hand, its Soc ought to drop to 5 or 6. (All figures are guesstimates).


Hans

 

[HG_B]

But in many societies your income and/or fortune translates pretty straightforwardly into social status.
Hans

That depends. Out on the "street" it makes almost no difference. I go to a restaurant and sitting at the next table is a billionaire (I know because he's in my industry) but no one else in the place knows. That staff treat him no different than I. Now, this is in his own city. Move him 10 parsecs to another planet...

 

[rancke]

That depends. Out on the "street" it makes almost no difference. I go to a restaurant and sitting at the next table is a billionaire (I know because he's in my industry) but no one else in the place knows.

Of course. Haroun al Rashid did the same thing. The whole point of his ventures was that no one knew him. But that didn't change his social status at all. And a sociographer who do know your millionaire is not going to assign you and him to the same social rank in life, is he?

That staff treat him no different than I. Now, this is in his own city. Move him 10 parsecs to another planet...

What happens then?


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

But in many societies your income and/or fortune translates pretty straightforwardly into social status. ...

True to some extent. If you have the power and influence to be useful to other people, or to become an obstacle and problem if they offend you, that alone will confer a great degree of respect and deference. Not consistently true though, especially where social status is wrapped up in political power. There, those with political power may exercise that power to keep the upstart in his place, even going so far as using that political power to deprive a problematic upstart of his wealth. So, it depends on the structure of the society and the extent to which those with high social status control the operations of government.

...So if your character rolls a 2 for Soc and gets a job as an astrogator, his Soc really ought to be upped to 6 or 7. And if it rolls an 11 for Soc and winds up as an engine hand, its Soc ought to drop to 5 or 6. (All figures are guesstimates). ...

Maybe, maybe not. His job is an astrogator. If the other Soc 6-7 folk ostracize him for his Soc-2 ways, is he going to use that position to get even? Most likely not. Now if your Soc-2 character managed to win a Major's rank and had power over the higher Soc lieutenants and captains below him, then maybe one could argue he should be treated as being a higher Soc. Maybe a special case: Soc 2(6), inasmuch as those not within his reach or influence would still be free to treat him with contempt.

On the inverse, someone with high Soc might be pitied as one who has fallen from his station by his peers, but it won't alter his knowledge of etiquette or make him best buds with his fellow engine hands, and his station is likely to be restored once his fortunes have changed. Again, it might be useful to treat it as a special case: Soc 11 (6), reflecting that he has the knowledge of higher class ways but is treated with less respect for having fallen on hard times - and yet cannot expect to be treated like "one of the guys" by his new peers.

 

[HG_B]

Of course. Haroun al Rashid did the same thing. The whole point of his ventures was that no one knew him. But that didn't change his social status at all. And a sociographer who do know your millionaire is not going to assign you and him to the same social rank in life, is he?


What happens then?


Hans

Per Trav rules I would be assigned a MUCH higher SS than he... No one except his employees or people who think he might buy something treat him any different than you or I. He doesn't have a "social status" any different than the average person. He ONLY has money that he might spend. That is what you aren't getting. If it doesn't involve parting him from his money, no one cares. If one is not accorded consideration for it, S.S. is not relevant. Axiom

 

[Limburger59]

I recall in the G.A. Henty books, written for British boys in the late 1800's, that many of the protagonists from his historical fictions would be knighted for their ingenuity and heroism in battle; but they were already from the gentleman class. So bringing it over to the TU, maybe a PC could be knighted along with a Starburst for Extreme Heroism, if their SOC was 8 or 9.

Commoners (SOC 7-) would be content with a bag of gold and a ceremonial cutlass to hang over the holo-fireplace when they retired.

Now, would a SEH be awarded to a gentleman volunteer who was no longer active duty?

 

[McPerth]

I guess this becomes relevant again:

IIRC one of most close Emperor Claudius (Roman Emperor from 41 to 54 AD) advisors was a former slave, and even while he was quite influential in the Roman Imperium (enough to be seen as a minister) he remained a freed slave, not a patrician, nor a Roman citizen (and I guess that qualifies for very low SS).

Soc, unlike other stats, is quite a perceptive one, but there are also some thresholds that depend on external things. If you're a titled noble, you will remain as such, regardless of your fortune (in fact, there have been many impoverished mobelity that still kept their nobility priveileges, while, if you don't hold a title, there are places you cannot go, regardless of your fortune (unless this same fortune buys you a title, either directly or as marriage. Both ways have been used historically). Don't forget 3I is a feudal society.

And of course, it will also depend on the place you're in and its culture, as some are more status conscius, while others are more money conscieus.

In some societies, if you earn a great fortune by yourself, you will be seen as a very important man, as you have earned it, not just had the luck to inherit it ,while in other places you'll be seen as a new rich, and so under the ones that inherited their own fortunes.

 

[rancke]

Maybe, maybe not. His job is an astrogator. If the other Soc 6-7 folk ostracize him for his Soc-2 ways, is he going to use that position to get even? Most likely not.

There are some unspoken assumptions here. What Soc-2 ways? Who says he still have his Soc-2 ways and hasn't learnt flawless Soc-7 ways? Who says the local Soc-7 people even recognize his ways as Soc-2 ways? Offworlders are strange no matter what social standing they have. There's not one of them knows how to play the noseflute properly! All they know is that he's an officer on a visiting starship with the lifestyle appropriate to a middle middle class occupation and with middle class manners that he has spent 20 years learning. Why would anyone still look at him as a dreg of society? Is his birth rank tattoed on his forehead?

Now if your Soc-2 character managed to win a Major's rank and had power over the higher Soc lieutenants and captains below him, then maybe one could argue he should be treated as being a higher Soc. Maybe a special case: Soc 2(6), inasmuch as those not within his reach or influence would still be free to treat him with contempt.

Judging by the character generation rules¹ (dangerous, I know, but what else do we have?), below-noble social standing plays a very small role in Imperial life (and noble standing doesn't seem to have much influence either). Enlistment and survival is completely unaffected by Soc except for artists and corporate citizens confused. Education affects a lot more careers, but oddly enough childhood social standing does not seem to affect education one little bit. One guess would be that the system pre-screens characters so that only the few lower-class individuals who manage to claw their way out of their childhood circumstances are even included in character generation. This could also explain the social diamond business. But in that case, it seems clear that once out of those childhood circumstances, no one (in Imperial society) holds them against you. Get a proper education and you can prosper in quite a few careers. In none of them is low social standing an actual handicap.

¹ MgT version. You get slightly different implications out of other versions of character generation, such as the navy (any navy) having a slight bias in favor of the upper middle class and above (Soc 9+ gets a +1 to commissions). Curiously enough there is no difference in the advantage derived from being in the upper middle class and being the son of an Imperial baron. The doctor's son and the Imperial baron's son (and everyone in between) seem to be equal in the eyes of the navy (any navy).​

On the inverse, someone with high Soc might be pitied as one who has fallen from his station by his peers, but it won't alter his knowledge of etiquette or make him best buds with his fellow engine hands, and his station is likely to be restored once his fortunes have changed. Again, it might be useful to treat it as a special case: Soc 11 (6), reflecting that he has the knowledge of higher class ways but is treated with less respect for having fallen on hard times - and yet cannot expect to be treated like "one of the guys" by his new peers.

If there is such a thing as a 'gentleman engineer', then that would work. I doubt there is, though. I deliberately chose an occupation with little glamor and lots of grease for the fallen aristocrat of my example.


Hans

 

[Selandia]

Soc is volatile because it is mostly interactive.

You may be rolled a Soc classification because you are objectively rich, noble, famous, well educated. But how that is treated in game term (and real life) depend of the eye of the beholder.

Patton is supposed... while Rolling to a meeting of base, he meet a lineman fixing wires up▮a telephone post in a most shaby uniform. He had the jeep stop, yell at the trooper to come down and yell " name, company, and such a shaby uniform is a shame, why are you like that, and if you do not salute me you will be court martialled?!" answer was "Harrington, phone company, bought the uniform at army surplus and you can do nothing about me not saluting you as long as I politely adress the customer. If you are not a client, stop wasting my time General."

I read that Mohamed Ali coming back to usa as a champion (soc 9 or 10 ?) still cant be served in some southern restaurants (Soc 2)

You could also consider Othello, that went from soc-4 (dark skinned foreign mercenary) to soc 12 (and marying into the Venitian elite) by fighting its way to command of the Venitian forces

have fun

Selandia

 

[rancke]

Soc is volatile because it is mostly interactive.

But unfortunately the rules don't reflect that much.

You may be rolled a Soc classification because you are objectively rich, noble, famous, well educated. But how that is treated in game term (and real life) depend of the eye of the beholder.

No, that's precisely what I object to. Your social standing is rolled at the start of character generation, and I can't think of any other explanation than that it represents the standing you were born into. And short of being lucky with the mustering out throws or getting an Imperial title, you Soc remains your birth Soc no matter what station in life fate (a.k.a. the Character Generation System) guides you towards.


Hans