Solomani Marines (Cannon and Speculation)

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Soli marines survive on a 6+ (+2 DM if Str 7+), and reenlist on a 6+.
Does three terms average sound about right?

Three terms on average feel right - so this is somewhat closer to a conscript force than to a long-service force (most marines will be out by the age of 30).

Originally posted by veltyen:
If you aren't using any structures larger then a battalion then all the things that occur "rarely" need to be squeezed in.

I agree, but keep in mind that most SMC units are organic ship-troops of Solomani warships; some of these things (especially artillery and veicle support/armor/transport) would be handeled by the Naval ship.

The ones you mentioned were limited Battledress and transport capabilities, so this might be the place for them if you intend to have them under regular command.

Transport isn't much of an issue as most Solomani Marines are assigned to Naval starships and have attached naval small-craft serving both as transport and close air support/armor. Battledess would mostly be a Commando thing (atleast according to the AM6 extended skill tables), so how common would be Marine Commandos (that is, would a small Commando unit be part of a Battalion)?

 

[Border Reiver]

I've attached a single Commando company (squadron) to each CMF brigade group.

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />most marine combat would take place aboard ship or station in a highly technical environment. each minimum combat element would have a navy support team of medic, damage controlman, and computer/electronics specialist. maybe even a mechanic/engineer.

For smaller ships (such as the 1,000-ton "cruiser") I'd assume that ship crewmembers with the appropriate skills will be attached to the Marines as needed;</font>[/QUOTE]agreed regardless of ship size, though how often they're needed could lead to TOE issues.

other than that, Marines would sometimes get the appropriate skills themselves (see the NCO skills tabe in the AM6 extended generation system).

I dunno. technical skills require some years to obtain and develop. I imagine younger marines will have enough trouble picking up combat skills fast enough, while older marines will concentrate on leadership tactics and admin - not much reason or time to spend fiddling with computers or memorizing drug interaction tables.

For Companies and Battalions, I'd agree with you on this, though (these were what the "Combat Engineering Team" was for - is a larger engineering unit needed?).

well if you pull out a deckplan for a larger ship or station and look at all the narrow passages and hatches, is it really possible to deploy a company in there and have it remain cohesive? seems like there would be all kinds of electronic and physical communication issues, and sending a support team from Co. HQ to where it's needed could be a major traffic control problem. I would think the support would have to be at the squad level because in a close-quarters environment each squad could easily wind up operating semi-independently. say a squad encounters a space that has a hydrogen leak and everything in it is -150F. they'll need to know if they can go in, if they can turn a hatch wheel without it breaking off, if they can push a button without the electronics shattering, if they can fire their weapons without causing a massive explosion. a DC man could tell them these things, but if they have to stand around waiting for him to arrive then their part of the operation is on hold until he does. off-hand I'd say that support would have to be at the squad level.

'course I'm no expert.

 

[Golan2072]

Hmmm... So we are speaking about one Engineer per Squad, one additional 4-man Engineering Team per Platoon, one additional Engineering Squad per Company, and one additional Engineering Platoon per Battalion?

 

[Golan2072]

Updated TO&E (up to Company):

A Note to Striker Players: Assume that SCM is a Long-Service Force.

Another Note: According to AM6: Solomani, the Solomani ground forces have a "Recruit" as their lowest rank, with "Private" bing E2; the whole NCO rank structure is thus "moved up a level" (i.e. Private First Class being E3, Corporal E4, Sergeant E5 and so on).

Personal Equipment: Unless otherwise noted, Solomani Marines wear Combat Armor and are armed with Gauss Rifles. The Combat Armor's helmet incorporate switchable IR/LI vision enhancement; the Combat Armor also incorporates a long-range communicator (500gr at TL14). Each Marine carries 5 RAM grenades (launched from the Gauss Rifle's underbarrel laucher) and 5 spare magazines for the Gauss Rifle. A Combat Knife (treat as Blade) is also carried. Heavy Weapon Specialists carry a Gauss Pistol as their sidearm along with their Heavy Weapon; Engineers are armed with a Gauss Pistol and 3 spare magazines each.

Rifle Fireteam: 4 Riflemen, one of whom is the Team Leader (Private First Class or Corporal), another is a Technical Specialist (Private); the other two are Recruits.

Plasma Fireteam: 4 Marines: 1 Team Leader (Private First Class), 1 Plasma Gunner (Private) and 2 Assistant Plasma Gunners (Recruits).

Combat Engineering Team: 4 Marines: 1 Team Leader (Corporal) and 3 Engineers (Privates First Class).

Squad: 12 Marines: 2 Rifle Fireteams and 1 Plasma Fireteam. The leader of one of the Rifle Fireteams also serves as the Squad Leader, and is tehn ranked as Corporal.

Combat Engineering Squad: 12 Marines: 2 Engineering Teams and 1 Rifle Fireteam. The leader of one of the Engineering Teams also serves as the Squad Leader.

Section: 25 Marines: 2 Squads plus a Section Leader (Sergeant). A Section is usually carried by a 50-ton Dropship (manned by two Naval Ensigns).

Platoon: 58 Marines: 2 Sections plus a 4-man Combat Engineering Team and a 4-man Command Team composed of the Platoon Leader (Second Lieutenant), the Platoon Senior NCO (Staff Sergeant), an Intel/Comm Specialist (Corporal) and a Medic (Corporal).

Company: 310 men (309 Marines and one Sailor): 5 Platoons, plus a 12-man Combat Engineering Squad and a 4-man Command Team composed of a Company CO (Captain), Company Senior NCO (Staf Sergeant), Intelligence Officer (First Lieutenant) and an attached Naval Liaison/Ortillery Coordinator (Ensign).

 

[flykiller]

if I may ask, what is the point of a "section"? what does it do?

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by flykiller:
if I may ask, what is the point of a "section"? what does it do?

Some units organize themselves by vehicles - armoured cavalry units tend to organize with around APC sizes determining squad sizes and an even multiple of APC sizes (or at least total capacities) determining the maximum size of a platoon in some fasion. Cavlary scouts are the same way.

In the same fashion, grav mobile forces or interface forces may organize around the sizes of their grav vehicles or landers.

If a squad has 12 people, 12 people better fit in the standard APC (or 12 + crew if your model is that the squad doesn't crew its own APC).

The Section above seems to be related to the size of a dropship (big enough for 25 guys, small enough not to fit fifty). This means they'll need some leadership if they are deployed in single dropship units, which explains the extra leader.

Composition up would make the next unit up two sections (a platoon) plus some extra leader and specialists. The only question here is what *is* the capacity of the 50 ton dropship, and how do they divide out the leaders and specialists between the two dropships in a section?

My guess is the dropship max-cap is about 30 guys. So 25 from a section fit in fine. When two sections drop, one section's dropship gets the 4 man engineering team, another gets the 4 man command team.

Presumably, you'd need a much bigger dropship to accomodate the entire platoon at once.

That's my guess for why you have a section (there could also be articulation/doctrinal issues, but I assume ultra modern marines articulate right down into two-man buddy elements or three-man element (depends if you are on a US or UK/Aussie model). I'm guessing the main raison d'etre is vehicle specifications.

 

[flykiller]

Some units organize themselves by vehicles ....

yeah, I kinda figured that. long time ago I decided the standard boat size in my deckplans was the 20 dton gig, and everything since then has been pushed into these.

so, 12 man squads, and adding command units is easy. but implementing a section would require another boat for one guy. I see our modern military implementing sections, apparently not because of transportation issues, so there must be another reason, and I'm wondering how important it is.

 

[far-trader]

Somebody with recent RL experience might know the reasons better, like Liam.

I can only guess but might it be to make quick tactical division of a platoon easier on the fly?

Perhaps so you can use flanking maneuvers? Have one section laying suppressive fire while the other moves to flank.

Or so you can send one section in to clear an area with a restricted view like a building while the other stays outside to keep a lookout for trouble approaching?

Or even just to spread out the platoon when facing an unkown situation? Like a bounding assault but on a bigger scale? Would that work?

 

[kaladorn]

Section also means different things in different places. When I was in the Canadian Forces, section meant (practically speaking) a group of 8-12 guys, with 3 sections in a platoon, sometimes with a support weapons section attached. So it was synonymous for what you call squad in that context.

The flexibility aspect is possible as an explanation(the term I use for that is articulation).

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flykiller:
if I may ask, what is the point of a "section"? what does it do?

Some units organize themselves by vehicles - armoured cavalry units tend to organize with around APC sizes determining squad sizes and an even multiple of APC sizes (or at least total capacities) determining the maximum size of a platoon in some fasion. Cavlary scouts are the same way.</font>[/QUOTE]Exactly. The Section rides a single Solar Blade-class dropship. The dropship is well-armed, slightly armored, and moderately fast, and can carry the Section, as well as 5 additional personnel and 7 tons of cargo.

Another possibility would be to use the Holy Wind Combat Lander from Solomani and Aslan, which will end up similarly to my Solar Triumvirate Marine Corps or even the Imperium (squads built from two 4-man fireteams and a 2-man vehicle crew). It just makes more sense to me that, based on the description of the SMC in cannon, they would use attached Naval small craft rather than grav vehicles. You could always use the Holy Wind as a transport for some heavy-infantry crews dedicated to planetary assaults.

Ship: Solomani Dropship
Class: Solar Blade
Type: Dropship
Architect: Omer Golan
Tech Level: 14
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">USP
TT-0103522-600000-20002-0 MCr37.4 50 Tons
Bat Bear 1 1 Crew: 27
Bat 1 1 TL: 14

Cargo: 7 Fuel: 2.5 EP: 2.5 Agility: 3 Marines: 25
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops</pre>[/QUOTE]Architects Fee: MCr0.37 Cost in Quantity: MCr29.92


Detailed Description

HULL
50 tons standard, 700 cubic meters, Needle/Wedge Configuration

CREW
Pilot, Gunner, 25 Marines

ENGINEERING
3G Manuever, Power plant-5, 2.5 EP, Agility 3

AVIONICS
Bridge, Model/2 Computer

HARDPOINTS
1 Hardpoint

ARMAMENT
1 Dual Mixed Turret with: 1 Beam Laser (Factor-2), 1 Missile Rack (Factor-2).

DEFENCES
Armoured Hull (Factor-6)

CRAFT
None

FUEL
2.5 Tons Fuel (28 days endurance)
On Board Fuel Scoops, No Fuel Purification Plant

MISCELLANEOUS
32 Acceleration Couches, 7 Tons Cargo

COST
MCr37.77 Singly (incl. Architects fees of MCr0.37), MCr29.92 in Quantity

CONSTRUCTION TIME
24 Weeks Singly, 19 Weeks in Quantity

 

[mbrinkhues]

Nice dropship. Can we get a civilian consultant and a PseudoBio Borg with it

Seriously:

Not up to speed in HighGuard but wouldn't it make sense to go for either a "full laser" or even a fusion gun armament for the turret? Space combat missiles don't strike me as effective in planetary combat-

 

[mbrinkhues]

On the TO&E:

You have a lot of Corporals in there Employee 2-4601. This might be common in long service troops but can a conscript army support those and make them useful Corporals (IIRC the Russians have Corporals that are basically re-labelled Privats)

Fire-teams are "in style" in some armies today but how about a "classic" squad with a 2 man "heavy" section, 6-8 rifleman and a Corporal to lead them.

As for "Crewing your vehicle" I have seen a variant where the NCO dismounts with 6-8 man and leaves a driver and gunner in the vehicle. This was used with IFV.

While "Gauss" weapons seem to be the standard, why not give the Sollies something else. Say a hevy caliber ACR. Easier to maintain by conscripts and cheaper to mass produce. Maybe even a semi-auto only

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Not up to speed in HighGuard but wouldn't it make sense to go for either a "full laser" or even a fusion gun armament for the turret? Space combat missiles don't strike me as effective in planetary combat-

The Missile Racks are probably multi-purpose, and thus capable of loading ground-attack (or anti-air/anti-vehicle) missiles when in a ground-support role and space-missiles when in orbital or interplanetary transit.

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
You have a lot of Corporals in there Employee 2-4601. This might be common in long service troops but can a conscript army support those and make them useful Corporals (IIRC the Russians have Corporals that are basically re-labelled Privats)

This will be repaired in a few minutes, as I've just re-read th rank tables of AM6: Solomani, and it has Recruit as its lowest rank (ED1), Private as E2, Private First Class as E3 and Corporal as E4; most "corporals" would be changed to PFCs and most PFCs into Privates, and Privates - into Recruits.

I might also chang it into a Long Service force, as, while the initial recrits are conscripts, most Marine forces serve more than the mandatory single term. This is how Israel handles most special and elite forces, as well as combat pilots - you get in through the usual draft process , then (if you survive the rigors of the "Gibush" selection pocess) you serve for quite a time, atleast 2 terms in Traveller terms (plus reserve duty).

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Fire-teams are "in style" in some armies today but how about a "classic" squad with a 2 man "heavy" section, 6-8 rifleman and a Corporal to lead them.

I've always thoght about the Solomani forces as manouver armies (as opposed to ones geared towards attrition warfare) - dynamic, agressive, and built around surprise and attack rather than around defense; defense would usually be carried ou in a manouverist manner as well. Wouldn't the fireteam system fit this well?

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
While "Gauss" weapons seem to be the standard, why not give the Sollies something else. Say a heavy caliber ACR. Easier to maintain by conscripts and cheaper to mass produce. Maybe even a semi-auto only

That would fit the Massed Solomani Armies - remember tht the Marines are a high-quality force (similar to Paratroopers in some contemporary armies, such as Israel or France) - Marines get high-tech guns and top-end training.

 

[flykiller]

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />most marine combat would take place aboard ship or station in a highly technical environment. each minimum combat element would have a navy support team of medic, damage controlman, and computer/electronics specialist. maybe even a mechanic/engineer.

For smaller ships (such as the 1,000-ton "cruiser") I'd assume that ship crewmembers with the appropriate skills will be attached to the Marines as needed; other than that, Marines would sometimes get the appropriate skills themselves (see the NCO skills tabe in the AM6 extended generation system). For Companies and Battalions, I'd agree with you on this, though (these were what the "Combat Engineering Team" was for - is a larger engineering unit needed?).

By the way, are there any things that I should bear in mind when designing the Battalion? </font>[/QUOTE]looking over your battalion, it's close to what I would do. not that I know anything about it, just that some things seem obvious.

the engineering team size seems adequate. you might want to consider just where the combat engineers come from. if they're navy then some ship is going to have to cough up 16 technicians from their engineering department every time a marine company deploys - they may not be able to do that. if they're marines then they'll have to spend some time as ship's crew to gain their training and maintain their experience - which the navy might like but which the marines might not. second's probably the best way.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Going over the data once more:

Two Squads to a section, two sections to a platoon makes sense. Platoons are split with the PlatoonSergeat(PSgt) taking one section, the Lt taking the other. IRL they even split by squads, each squad covering a strongpoint

OTOH five platoons to a company makes for a very large company given your platoon size. The normal size is more around 150-180 persons per company(i.e three platoons of 30 each plus headquarters). If you form this company into a batallion, you get more than 1000 man (3 Line Cp, 1 Staff/Supply/HvWeapons)

There are two types of Combat Engineers. Professionals (Engineers) and trained ones (Sappers). For most tasks (Blasting, Simple field works, killing simple field works) the trained ones are good enough. For complex tasks a seperate CE Unit (with special gear) might be better. Sapper can be a MoS for a regular grunt

Where will you put the heavy weapons if any? PGMP and RAM grenades can do a lot of the work done by light Mortars and LAWs so on the company level I see no need for them. On the batallion level you might want some guided missiles or heavy mortars

I may have overlooked it but it seems you did not include any sustained fire weapons (Maschine Guns) like the Gaus-MG.

 

[flykiller]

OTOH five platoons to a company makes for a very large company given your platoon size.

this makes sense to me. replacements and reinforcements will be two weeks away minimum by jump, and even if other forces are in-system it could take up to a week to traverse the interplanetary distance. these guys will usually be alone and will have to get the job done alone, and that means being able to take casualties and still function.

... Engineers ... Blasting, Simple field works, killing simple field works

I would think the engineers would be technical - shipboard damage control, firefighting, comms, computer restoration and hacking, electronics, ECM, life support restoration, hull patching.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Where will you put the heavy weapons if any? PGMP and RAM grenades can do a lot of the work done by light Mortars and LAWs so on the company level I see no need for them. On the batallion level you might want some guided missiles or heavy mortars

On the squad level, each squad has a PGMP-14; in addition, each Marine has an underbarrel grenade launcher on his Gauss Rifle (think Aliens Pulse Rifles). At the Battalion level you'll have man-portable TAC missiles, incorporating guidance and quite a big range, and also capable of using a wide range of ammonition types. Disposable remote-operated MRL packs will also be used.

I may have overlooked it but it seems you did not include any sustained fire weapons (Maschine Guns) like the Gaus-MG.

Don't the Gauss Rifles, with their large ammo capacity and ultra-rapid fire, somewhat bridge the gap between an assault rifle and a light machinegun? If not, I'll add a GMG (Gauss Machine Gun, the gauss equivalent to an LMG) to each fireteam.

By the way, do you prefer the SMC to use naval small-craft directly or do you think that they'd be better off with Grav-APCs such as the Holy Wind described in Solomani and Aslan?

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by flykiller:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />OTOH five platoons to a company makes for a very large company given your platoon size.

this makes sense to me. replacements and reinforcements will be two weeks away minimum by jump, and even if other forces are in-system it could take up to a week to traverse the interplanetary distance. these guys will usually be alone and will have to get the job done alone, and that means being able to take casualties and still function.
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with the total amount of bodies in a batallion sized unit but not in the size of the companies. The problem is IMHO that the military dislikes dispatching units in less than platoon size and prefers company size units. So I would prefer a company of around 150 man and 6 combat companies over 300 and 3. That way you are not loosing 1/3 of your combat strength whenever you hand over a company

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />... Engineers ... Blasting, Simple field works, killing simple field works

I would think the engineers would be technical - shipboard damage control, firefighting, comms, computer restoration and hacking, electronics, ECM, life support restoration, hull patching. </font>[/QUOTE]Different types of Engineers. The one you are thinking of guys like "Scotty" or "LaForge" from StarTrek, called "Maschinist" or "Ingenieur" in german.

The Combat Engineer (called a Pionier in german) is the guy that specialises in military construction and demolition works. The literature gives examples of this in "Miller" from Guns of Navarone and Force Ten from Navarone or "Major Carter" from Stargate when ordered to "build me a bomb outa that" or claiming she "never blew up something that big"

 

[mbrinkhues]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Where will you put the heavy weapons if any? PGMP and RAM grenades can do a lot of the work done by light Mortars and LAWs so on the company level I see no need for them. On the batallion level you might want some guided missiles or heavy mortars

On the squad level, each squad has a PGMP-14; in addition, each Marine has an underbarrel grenade launcher on his Gauss Rifle (think Aliens Pulse Rifles). At the Battalion level you'll have man-portable TAC missiles, incorporating guidance and quite a big range, and also capable of using a wide range of ammonition types. Disposable remote-operated MRL packs will also be used.

I may have overlooked it but it seems you did not include any sustained fire weapons (Maschine Guns) like the Gaus-MG.

Don't the Gauss Rifles, with their large ammo capacity and ultra-rapid fire, somewhat bridge the gap between an assault rifle and a light machinegun? If not, I'll add a GMG (Gauss Machine Gun, the gauss equivalent to an LMG) to each fireteam.

By the way, do you prefer the SMC to use naval small-craft directly or do you think that they'd be better off with Grav-APCs such as the Holy Wind described in Solomani and Aslan? </font>[/QUOTE]The 40 rounds are not that much bigger than the 30 round magazins of most IRL assault rifles so I'd suggest at least a SAW-type using the same ammo as the Gauss rifle but a casset-type ammo (Similar to the MG36 or the RPK)

Since the Marines are more assault/shipboard forces, I'd say they should use small craft since most of those have better acceleration than grav vehicles and can carry a heavy armament.