Solomani Rim War: Sector Data M990?

[inexorabletash]

What would sector data near Solomani space look like for 990?

I assume that just prior to 871 a map would show the Imperium encompassing the entire Solomani Sphere, but with the Sphere marked as an autonomous region.

I assume that between 871 and 990, official Imperial maps would remain unchanged, but Solomani Confederation maps would show the Sphere as a separate polity.

I assume that after 1002 even Imperial maps would show the Confederation as a distinct polity.

So... for 990 itself we could illustrate things any way we wanted depending on who was telling the story, although practically speaking showing the entire Sphere - with a border cutting across Daibei, Diaspora, and Old Expanses - as a separate polity would match the political reality the best, on the brink of war.

What other differences other than world allegiances would exist? Routes (although those are sketchy anyway). Home would not be a capital and may have had a different name. Would the Vegan region have been autonomous under Solomani control?

 

[McPerth]

What other differences other than world allegiances would exist? Routes (although those are sketchy anyway). Home would not be a capital and may have had a different name. Would the Vegan region have been autonomous under Solomani control?

Aside from TLs (of course) the goverment digit for Terra (that would not be 6, though I'm not sure wich one would it be).

 

[tjoneslo]

What other differences other than world allegiances would exist? Routes (although those are sketchy anyway). Home would not be a capital and may have had a different name. Would the Vegan region have been autonomous under Solomani control?

Terra was integrated into the Third Imperium in 588 as part of the Old Earth Union, a Pocket Empire that survived the Long Night.

The Solomani Autonomous Region is established in 704 (by Margret I), and lasts until 940 (revoked by Margret II). This is the correct name for the Solomani Sphere under the Third Imperium. It would be, as the name implies, marked as an autonomous region as part of the Third Imperium.

I don't think it has ever been made clear in canon how much of the rimward sectors (Canopus, Aldebaran, Neworld) were integrated before the declaration of Margret I. Case in point, the Boötean League

After 940, until 990, the whole region would be marked as part of the Third Imperium, but not a separate region. This era would be marked with increasing political instability.

In 990, the entire Solomani Sphere declares independence. There is the Solomani Rim War, which lasts until 1002. The worlds in the Imperial controlled section of the Solomani rim would, depending upon the exact year selected be under military rule until after the war is stalemated.

Technically the war isn't over. As of 1116 both the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation claim the whole of the Solomani Sphere. From the Imperial perspective, the Solomani held portions of the sphere are Imperial territory held by the Solomani rebels. And from the Confederation perspective, the worlds are being oppressed by the Imperials. (Side note, it is my canon this is the source of the "11,000 worlds of the Imperium")

The Vegan Autonomous Region was established in 1002, after the rim war. Comments in GT:Rim of Fire indicate the primary reason for Margret II revoking the charter for the Solomani Autonomous Region was the treatment of the Vegan's under the Solomani. I suspect the reason for the establishment of the Vegan Autonomous Region is a reward for their assistance during the Rim War

 

[Garnfellow]

The topic is highly relevant to my interests! I have developed Rim War Sector data for Diaspora, Daibei, and Magyar.

So one of the first challenges we have is mapping the original boundaries of the Solomani Autonomous Region, which is actually not as straightforward as it would seem. Sectors are normally described as being 32 parsecs by 40 parsecs in dimension. But because of the way hex columns nest against each other, sectors could be considered closer to 28 parsecs spinward to trailing, even though they are 32 hexes wide.

If you assume sectors are really about 28 parsecs wide, you get borders that more-or-less conform to 1105 Confederation borders. If you assume hex columns are 1 parsec wide, you get spinward and trailing Autonomous region borders that are about a subsector "short" of 1105 Confederation borders.

After the Charter establishing the Confederation was ratified in 871, many worlds near the coreward border were reabsorbed by the Imperium over the 119 years prior to the Rim War. So that 990 coreward border was probably fairly ragged compared to the Autonomous Region.

The rimward border was probably pretty similar to 1105, but there was evidently far less development near the border; after the Rim War the Solomanis began expanding rimward in earnest.

One interesting difference would be potential Solomani member-states not yet described in canon. All information we have on these polities is from Solomani and Aslan, set in 1122. But there very well may have been several member-states that were completely destroyed in the Rim War or collapsed in the aftermath.

 

[tjoneslo]

After the Charter establishing the Confederation was ratified in 871, many worlds near the coreward border were reabsorbed by the Imperium over the 119 years prior to the Rim War. So that 990 coreward border was probably fairly ragged compared to the Autonomous Region.

That's a very interesting question. Between 871 (the founding of the Confederation) and 940 (Margret's revoking of the Solomani Autonomous Region charter), the whole of the Solomani Sphere was claimed by the Imperium. And the Confederation at that time was acknowledged governing body. So the map makers wouldn't have shifted the borders. Except if you were to take a more subtle approach and rank the worlds on their loyalty to either the Confederation or the Imperium as a whole.

The rimward border was probably pretty similar to 1105, but there was evidently far less development near the border; after the Rim War the Solomanis began expanding rimward in earnest.

That was the other interesting question. In the rimward sectors did the Imperium actually negotiate/conquer all the worlds? Or did Margret I simply declare the worlds as Imperial territory with the assumption the governing body of the Solomani Sphere would do the hard work?

 

[Garnfellow]

That was the other interesting question. In the rimward sectors did the Imperium actually negotiate/conquer all the worlds? Or did Margret I simply declare the worlds as Imperial territory with the assumption the governing body of the Solomani Sphere would do the hard work?

This is a question I have pondered a lot -- it also had huge implications on the spinward border of the Autonomous Region, which technically might have been subject to treaties with the Aslan. How could Margaret have granted any rights over territories not controlled by the Imperium, much less disputed treaty systems?

"The charter granted control of the region of space within a radius of 50 parsecs of Terra (hence the name Solomani Sphere) to a Solomani governing body, which was given broad powers of authority" (CT Supplement 11 Library Data N-Z, 19).

Maybe "control" overstates Margaret's charter; perhaps it only promised non-interference with Solomani actions in the Sphere.

 

[inexorabletash]

The topic is highly relevant to my interests! I have developed Rim War Sector data for Diaspora, Daibei, and Magyar.

Not coincidentally I've been working on rounding out Milieu support for TravellerMap.com. Right now I have 990 data for the Gateway quadrant (c/o Gateway to Destiny) and tossed up Interstellar Wars data for the Solomani Rim, but 990 Solomani data would be nice to have.

You know where to reach me...

 

[Condottiere]

The Solomani Rim tends to be, surprisingly, an underdeveloped backwater.

The War of Imperium Aggression was inevitable, as the Imperium could not tolerate the expansion of a far more dynamic polity outside of it's control.

 

[GypsyComet]

Not buying "underdeveloped" for any era after about the Third Interstellar War.

Under appreciated, maybe, but the sector was originally written to have a higher population, and has retained it. Under normal rules an subsector of 30 to 40 worlds should have between two and four High Pop worlds. Four High Pops is the sparsest any subsector in the Solomani Rim gets, and the overall High Pop world list is mostly A and B ports. A couple subsectors approach or exceed double digit occurrence.

That sort of development takes centuries to build, and goes a long way to explain why the Imperium stopped shortly after taking and isolating Terra. Even with the Vegans as allies, the Solomani Rim is a hard target, and probably has been for much of the history since the Second Imperium. It is one of the regions which kept the lights on during the Long Night, and joined the Third Imperium en mass, as I understand it. The area bankrolled an arms-length centuries-long state of war with the emergent Aslan. That state of war long after the Interstellar Wars may be the real reason why the region is so developed. Frontline shipyards, bastion systems, and pivot points for the Solomani Fleets, standing between the Aslan and the interior Terran, Bootean, and other polities all thriving on a multi-generational wartime economy.

The Solomani joined the Imperium with the plan to dominate it as they had before, and that plan worked for several centuries. When that plan stopped working and the Vilani rose to cultural prominence, the Solomani turtled up, as we (being their ancestors) all know they would. This is not rocket science, but elementary Political Science.

As for progressive UWPs, the steps have already been suggested. Figure out the evolution of the political boundaries and determine the TL waypoints, and much of the rest fall into place.

 

[McPerth]

Not buying "underdeveloped" for any era after about the Third Interstellar War.

I agree in this point.

According MT:S&A (page 41), Solomani worlds are created with standard rules with the following modifications:

1. Starports: use the "clustered" column in the table in page 24 of the RM for sectors adjacent to the Solomani Ring (not specified, but I guess it included). So, starports A and B are quite more common
2. Population: +1 DM (caped at A)
3. TL: -1 (see that this is easily compensated by the two points above). Caped at 15.

See that points 1 and 2 are far from representing an underdeveloped region, while point 3 (the one that might do so) seems more to compensate the effects of the first two points (IITR I read it was specifically for that, but I cannot remember the reference).

 

[Garnfellow]

After 940, until 990, the whole region would be marked as part of the Third Imperium, but not a separate region. This era would be marked with increasing political instability.

I'm not sure about the first statement, but agree with the second. The Imperium declares war in 990 "After years of diplomatic actions proved fruitless." Just erasing the border from Imperial maps would be both provocative to the Solomani and dangerous for Imperial ships operating in the region. Some sort of "disputed boundary" probably would have been shown, and all worlds within the Sphere given an Amber Zone. Something to alert navigators that, despite the official position of the Imperium, the rules are very different in these systems and they should be only entered with caution.

In 990, the entire Solomani Sphere declares independence. There is the Solomani Rim War, which lasts until 1002. The worlds in the Imperial controlled section of the Solomani rim would, depending upon the exact year selected be under military rule until after the war is stalemated.

Technically the war isn't over. As of 1116 both the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation claim the whole of the Solomani Sphere. From the Imperial perspective, the Solomani held portions of the sphere are Imperial territory held by the Solomani rebels. And from the Confederation perspective, the worlds are being oppressed by the Imperials. (Side note, it is my canon this is the source of the "11,000 worlds of the Imperium")

I'm not so sure that the Imperium actually claims all of the worlds in the Sphere, as many of those were never part of the Imperium. We know, for example, that the Bootean worlds never joined, and Kukulcan was the only world in its subsector to be colonized prior to the Solomani period. While the Imperium doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the Confederation government, that's quite different from asserting sovereignty over all worlds claimed by that government.

In general, I think the armistice line established in 1002 more-or-less marks worlds that were once part of the Third Imperium, and no more. I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions -- worlds stuck on the "wrong" side of the border.

But if the two side used that general convention for drawing the post-war boundary -- the Imperium retains systems that had once been Imperial, the Confederation retains all others -- it would explain, for example, why so much of Daibei changed hands without significant fighting, if we can believe the map of "Wars of the Imperium" in the MegaTraveller Encyclopedia.

The Vegan Autonomous Region was established in 1002, after the rim war. Comments in GT:Rim of Fire indicate the primary reason for Margret II revoking the charter for the Solomani Autonomous Region was the treatment of the Vegan's under the Solomani. I suspect the reason for the establishment of the Vegan Autonomous Region is a reward for their assistance during the Rim War

Yes. I think Mongoose Traveller: Solomani Rim supports this.

 

[Garnfellow]

Not buying "underdeveloped" for any era after about the Third Interstellar War.

Well, Ultima, Jardin, and Kukulcan subsectors are explicitly described as underdeveloped backwaters in virtually all canonical sources, going all the way back to CT. Aldebaran sector is also described as being mostly undeveloped until after the Rim War.

I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's pretty well baked into the sources.

 

[GypsyComet]

Well, Ultima, Jardin, and Kukulcan subsectors are explicitly described as underdeveloped backwaters in virtually all canonical sources, going all the way back to CT. Aldebaran sector is also described as being mostly undeveloped until after the Rim War.

I agree it doesn't make a lot of sense, but it's pretty well baked into the sources.

Relative to the rest of the sector, or when compared to the most developed portions of the central Imperium, the statement holds up a little better. Compare them to even Magyar and Alpha Crucis, however (the only two other sectors mostly in Sollie space to have the official stamp on their UWPs), and even those "backwaters" hold up pretty well. I suspect a Sollie POV in-universe statement disguised as fact, to be honest.

 

[tjoneslo]

I'm not so sure that the Imperium actually claims all of the worlds in the Sphere, as many of those were never part of the Imperium. We know, for example, that the Bootean worlds never joined, and Kukulcan was the only world in its subsector to be colonized prior to the Solomani period. While the Imperium doesn't recognize the legitimacy of the Confederation government, that's quite different from asserting sovereignty over all worlds claimed by that government.

I think we're in agreement here.

From AM6, page 10:

the Empress Margaret I, granted a charter creating the Solomani Autonomous Region, a sphere of space 100 parsecs in diameter and centered on Terra (hence the region's alternate name: the Solomani Sphere). The formation of the Autonomous Region in 704 was intended as a sop to the Movement, whose leaders became the new rulers of the region. The lmperium retained theoretical sovereignty, but all real power within the region was placed in the hands of the Solomani Movement.

Based upon this quote, I still think the Imperium claims the whole of the Solomani Sphere. But, as you say, claiming it and controlling it are two very different things.

But if the two side used that general convention for drawing the post-war boundary -- the Imperium retains systems that had once been Imperial, the Confederation retains all others -- it would explain, for example, why so much of Daibei changed hands without significant fighting, if we can believe the map of "Wars of the Imperium" in the MegaTraveller Encyclopedia.

I'm going to disagree here. I think they drew the border around the worlds the Imperium conquered during the war. Again from AM6, page 11

In 998, the lmperium launched the last phase of the war by starting a steady advance into the heart of the Solomani Sphere. lmperial strategy called for two attacks along parallel lines, driving deep into the Confederation and converging on Terra.

So worlds ended up on the "wrong" side of the border depending on where the war affected them. I'm sure that during 1002, while the main force of the Imperium was occupied with conquering Terra, there were undoubtedly side battles going in. But the borders were not drawn based upon any historical borders.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Going with I don't buy the backwater idea.

T4 describes well the Cleon plan to dominate and absorb early holdings like Vland and trying to absorb the Julian Protectorate. I recall that somewhere in the T4 books that Cleon forbid going Rimward because it would be "more difficult". In addition, going against the Cleon plan if you will, is the expansion into the Spinward Marches.

It was easier to explore and build the Marches instead of absorbing the Rim ?o:

What do you all think of this?

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

Going with I don't buy the backwater idea.

T4 describes well the Cleon plan to dominate and absorb early holdings like Vland and trying to absorb the Julian Protectorate. I recall that somewhere in the T4 books that Cleon forbid going Rimward because it would be "more difficult". In addition, going against the Cleon plan if you will, is the expansion into the Spinward Marches.

It was easier to explore and build the Marches instead of absorbing the Rim ?o:

What do you all think of this?

path of least resistance.

the Domain of Deneb was relatively unpopulated and thus a comparatively small effort could shift the imperial borders a long way, compared to a push though much more populated and organised areas rimward. bear in mind the "difficult" part of going rimward might have been pocket empires in what is now the Dispora and Massilia sectors, rather than the solomani themselves.

 

[GypsyComet]

bear in mind the "difficult" part of going rimward might have been pocket empires in what is now the Dispora and Massilia sectors, rather than the solomani themselves.

Or the large incursion of Aslan...

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Or the large incursion of Aslan...

No. Not the case. The Third Imperium entered the region occupied by the Aslan around 200. The Aslan Border Wars describes this. It ended in 380 with The Peace of Ftahalr. So even with the Aslan being stopped, incorporation of Terra occurred 200 years later in 588.

 

[GypsyComet]

No. Not the case. The Third Imperium entered the region occupied by the Aslan around 200. The Aslan Border Wars describes this. It ended in 380 with The Peace of Ftahalr. So even with the Aslan being stopped, incorporation of Terra occurred 200 years later in 588.

As a reason to not venture rimward, however, it works just fine. Context is everything.

 

[Garnfellow]

From AM6, page 10:

The Empress Margaret I, granted a charter creating the Solomani Autonomous Region, a sphere of space 100 parsecs in diameter and centered on Terra (hence the region's alternate name: the Solomani Sphere). The formation of the Autonomous Region in 704 was intended as a sop to the Movement, whose leaders became the new rulers of the region. The lmperium retained theoretical sovereignty, but all real power within the region was placed in the hands of the Solomani Movement.

Based upon this quote, I still think the Imperium claims the whole of the Solomani Sphere. But, as you say, claiming it and controlling it are two very different things.

That's a good quote, and I have a hard time explaining what was going on here. We know that many worlds in Magyar and Alpha Crucis never joined the Imperium. We know that the Bootean Federation never joined.

So how could Margaret give control over territories she did not actually control?

And for that matter, why was the Solomani Sphere set at 100 parsecs in diameter? It extends far beyond any border of the First or Second Imperium, so there's no historical precedent. And there's no real cultural precedent, either. A good chunk of the Sphere to coreward contained significant Vilani populations, to spinward and trailing were Terran populations that had explicitly rejected the Rule of Man, and to rimward lay largely unsettled systems. Plus, many of the systems within the Sphere had been cut off from the interstellar community during the Long Night.

So it's not like there's even a semi-coherent shared culture within that 100 parsec region.

I'm going to disagree here. I think they drew the border around the worlds the Imperium conquered during the war.

That certainly would make the most sense, but the 1105 border doesn't line up with the map of "Wars of the Imperium" from the MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia.

I admit that map is extremely coarse and any conclusion based upon a reading of it is hanging on a very tenuous thread, but look at the spinward theatre. A good chunk of Daibei changed hands, without significant fighting? The Imperials drove far deeper into Magyar than is reflected in the 1105 border.

The map makes it look like the Imperium gained, through the Rim War, systems that it did not capture, and gave up systems that it did. This could be explained by the Armistice using a border with some legal or historical precedent to reset the boundary: and one precedent to use would be those worlds that had joined the Imperium prior to 755.

It's thin, I'll admit -- but if someone else has a better explanation that can reconcile the IE map and the 1105 borders, I'm all ears.