CT Only: Spinward Flex Courier

[Spinward Flow]

Also, just as a side note, this particular ship to ship combat highlights the value of having a skilled pilot (in the LBB5.80 paradigm).
The terms of the Race to Profitability were that ship crew skills were set at the absolute bare minimum required by regulations, so Pilot-1 for the Pilot and Gunnery-1 for the Gunner.



However ... if the Spinward Flex Courier crew had higher skill level(s), and was therefore drawing a higher salary, here is how the odds involved in the battle with the (pirate) Patrol Cruiser could have been altered (Pilot skill adds to defense only, Ship Tactics skill adds to offense AND defense).

• Pilot-1, Ship Tactics-0: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 14+/11+ to hit, 4+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 10+ to hit, 7+ to penetrate laser defense.
• Pilot-3, Ship Tactics-0: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 15+/12+ to hit, 4+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 10+ to hit, 7+ to penetrate laser defense.
• Pilot-5, Ship Tactics-0: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 16+/13+ to hit (good luck!), 4+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 10+ to hit, 7+ to penetrate laser defense.

• Pilot-1, Ship Tactics-3: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 15+/12+ to hit, 5+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 9+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate laser defense.
• Pilot-3, Ship Tactics-3: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 16+/13+ to hit (good luck!), 5+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 9+ to hit, 6+ to penetrate laser defense.

• Pilot-1, Ship Tactics-5: Patrol Cruiser attacks require 16+/13+ to hit (good luck!), 6+ to penetrate sandcaster defense ... Spinward Flex Courier attack requires 8+ to hit, 5+ to penetrate laser defense.

So this would be yet another example of how investing in a good crew at the expense of paying more in salary costs over time can be more than made up for in terms of Risk Mitigation when contemplating the possible losses that could occur after taking a hit in combat that results in Critical Damage which could potentially "total" the starship completely. Viewed purely from a risk/reward standpoint, the cost of paying a slightly higher crew salary over time (a few thousand extra credits per month) versus the potential loss of the value of the entire starship (slightly under MCr 110 when bought in volume production) starts looking like a REALLY GOOD INVESTMENT, wouldn't you say? :coffeesip:

In this context, you want to think of the increased cost in crew salary as being akin to paying for ... insurance ... meaning that it's cheaper to pay more for a crew with better skills than it is to have to buy a whole new starship because pirates "got" the last one in an attack. :toast:

I mean, once the to hit roll needs to be 13+ on 2D ... that's pretty much all the "insurance" you need against taking damage, right?
Think about it.



Point being that from a campaign perspective, although you can "get away with" a pilot who only needs Pilot-1 skill to operate a Spinward Flex Courier as a matter of regulatory requirements ... there's definitely an incentive bias towards getting "hotshot" pilots with better skills who know how to get out of trouble just about as fast as they can get into it (because, you know, they might need to).

And I think the case has already been made that a Spinward Flex Courier is "profitable enough" as a ship design for the "inhuman resources" section of the Accounting Department to be willing to ... splurge ... on paying for a highly skilled crew in exchange for that "insurance policy" against loss, damages and/or pirate attacks on "their" starship.



Food for thought, right?

 

[bookwyrm]

Wow!

well, Flex Courier has the edge with consistent revenue from X-Mail. but Far Trader has the potential of spike revenue from full Passengers.

the difference between the two when confronted with a Pirate... well, my first thought was, 'Patrol Cruisers are nice people', then I wondered 'But if it's a Pirate...'

even though I'm just a Citizen reading the Thread, I really felt the pain when it turned out to be Pirates. losing the cargo was bad enough, but the MCr6 was a tough loss for me to witness, and for the Captain & Crew of the FT to experience. I have to say, the Captain handled things well with no crew losses and no damage to the ship. he's still in the black revenue wise, and we can only hope that this isn't the start of a slide into bankruptcy. only the dice really know.

on the other hand, seeing a high G escape with a missile distraction fired at the enemy (hope it hits), and seeing the Sand Caster in action and actually very useful (I have always looked down on SC's for some reason), not to mention the very helpful communication with the Star Port.

this part of the Thread really makes you think of a Ships build out for it's mission, and Crew requirements and their skills to meet that mission.

looking forward to the rest of the Journey of Comparison, especially when these 2 ships return to this system going the other way.

 

[Spinward Flow]

well, Flex Courier has the edge with consistent revenue from X-Mail. but Far Trader has the potential of spike revenue from full Passengers.

Aye ... that's the rub, isn't it.
I knew it, because I designed for it and saw the potential there when putting the whole thing together in the first place with the original 100 ton version that had no cargo capacity worth mentioning (1 ton of cargo capacity is next to useless, I'm now finding, go figure). But I needed to have that experience in order to more fully flesh out the notion and the business model in order to diversify into the "useful" mix of x-mail and cargo you see in the current design showcased in this thread running this Race to Profitability.

The 40 ton internal cargo bay with an inflatable bladder of 40 tons capacity just hits a really really sweet spot for not only a useful bulk cargo transport for revenue generation, but also a really good size for being able to carry most of the highest value speculative cargoes that might be for sale. Being able to extend range to 4 parsecs (2J2) when not carrying any cargo internally so as to be able to "ferry" the starship over long distances without needing to make long detours on jump-2 routes just hits that almost perfect balance in flexible capability in so many ways.

the difference between the two when confronted with a Pirate... well, my first thought was, 'Patrol Cruisers are nice people', then I wondered 'But if it's a Pirate...'

If it wasn't immediately obvious to you, since I was "rolling dice on the table" where everyone (reading this thread) could see the results ... the signpost for what the results might mean was already there in the Merchant Data quote at the start of the post, where it has the notation that for a type C starport the starship encounter roll is 2D with a +0 modifier and a result of 10 is a pirate. So from a Referee/Player campaign interaction perspective, I wasn't concealing the possibility from being known or knowable ... but if you were reading through the sequence of events and didn't instantly know that the Patrol Cruiser was a pirate ship, let's just say you flatter me on my narrative skills.

even though I'm just a Citizen reading the Thread, I really felt the pain when it turned out to be Pirates. losing the cargo was bad enough, but the MCr6 was a tough loss for me to witness, and for the Captain & Crew of the FT to experience. I have to say, the Captain handled things well with no crew losses and no damage to the ship. he's still in the black revenue wise, and we can only hope that this isn't the start of a slide into bankruptcy. only the dice really know.

Under the circumstances, once the (pirate) Patrol Cruiser detected the Far Trader and confirmed their outbound trajectory, the battle was already decided. Even if the Far Trader had been armed (which it isn't, but even if it had been) ... even if it had been HEAVILY ARMED ... in my opinion, against a Patrol Cruiser, the smart play on the part of the Far Trader would have been to surrender without firing a shot. If the Far Trader even attempted to resist being boarded, the possible damage to the Far Trader could have been catastrophic.

I mean, looking at the Critical Hit Table on LBB5.80 p48 ... the only results that wouldn't have rendered the Far Trader (or Spinward Flex Courier for that matter) a dead hulk fit only for the scrapyard (type C starports can't repair destroyed systems) would have been ... a 6, 8, 11 or 12 on 2D ... and the odds of rolling those (and nothing BUT those results) is NOT GOOD. o:

Point being, that under the circumstances, all things considered ... being unarmed in this situation was probably the best possible outcome for the Far Trader captain, since it preemptively made a surrender/ransom situation not only likely, but also the most reasonable resolution.

The alternative, to quote a transforming robot armed with a fusion gun, would have been ... "Such heroic nonsense."

So ... yeah. Counter intuitive as it may seem, the Far Trader actually "got lucky" by being unarmed, rather than armed, when the pirates showed up.

on the other hand, seeing a high G escape with a missile distraction fired at the enemy (hope it hits), and seeing the Sand Caster in action and actually very useful (I have always looked down on SC's for some reason)

Fortunately, the sandcaster "wasn't needed" to avoid incoming fire since the missile shot from the Patrol Cruiser was a clean miss. However, if the missile hit roll had indicated a hit, penetrating the sandcaster would have only required a roll of 4+ on 2D by the Patrol Cruiser, so the sandcaster very likely wouldn't have been able to prevent the hit. So don't go thinking the sandcaster was in any way "decisive" in this battle. The way that LBB5.80 combat works is that defenses like sand and anti-missile energy weapons fire only need to be allocated after it has been determined that an attack manages to hit. Sand doesn't modify the to hit roll, it's just an extra roll to penetrate defenses to deal damage if a hit roll is successful. So it's basically an "extra chance to miss" on a shot that would otherwise hit that needs to be rolled for.

Sandcasters are much more effective against lasers than they are against missiles or energy weapons (plasma/fusion guns). Particle accelerators and meson guns ignore sandcasters, but those are almost exclusively military weapons, rather than the sorts of things civilian (or pirate) ships are likely to have mounted.

not to mention the very helpful communication with the Star Port.

The difference there was that as soon as the Patrol Cruiser announced its presence and intentions ... the Far Trader had no options other than surrender. The Far Trader captain could have contacted Starport Control too ... but what good would that have done them? The Far Trader was 5 hours into a 13 hour transit out to the jump point ... there was simply NO WAY anyone was going to be in range in time to stop the Patrol Cruiser from doing whatever it wanted with the Far Trader, and as I've already detailed there was no option of outrunning a 4G Patrol Cruiser in a 1G Far Trader. Can't run, can't fight ... best not to resist and simply comply as ordered and prepare to be boarded. If the Patrol Cruiser was legitimate, the Far Trader would simply be delayed for an hour or two during the inspection and then they could get underway again, none the worse for wear.

OBVIOUSLY the situation was different for the Spinward Flex Courier because their ship was designed and built to be MUCH more capable.
Since the option to outrun and outmaneuver the Patrol Cruiser was a possibility, the question of their legitimacy as a system defense ship IMMEDIATELY came to mind. Remember, Choleosti is a star system with a population code of *1* and according to the wiki page for the system, a permanent population of 13. A Patrol Cruiser is a "standard" ship design with a crew of 18(!).

So riddle me this ... is it reasonable to expect a star system with a permanent population of 13 sophonts to be capable of supporting and controlling(!) a starship with a crew of 18 aboard?
And it's not like I hadn't already mentioned the fact that Choleosti has only 13 permanent residents (most of whom maintain the automated type C starport) during the cargo negotiation section previous to departure and the encounter with the Patrol Cruiser.

To a merchant prince, that situation made as much sense as saying that the stock market has successfully predicted 9 of the last 5 recessions.
I mean, as soon as you say it, it's kind of obvious that something is amiss.

So the Spinward Flex Courier captain was immediately suspicious of the legitimacy of the Patrol Cruiser simply because with a 6G maneuver drive they had OPTIONS for how to respond to the Patrol Cruiser beyond preemptive surrender and preparation for boarding. So before altering course and manning battle stations, the most logical thing to do was to contact an authority outside the Patrol Cruiser (in this case, Starport Control) to try and verify the legitimacy of the Patrol Cruiser's identity ... and when the answer to that query came back as "not legit" then everything goes Red Alert and sound general quarters (get the one gunner that you have to their station!).

The Far Trader captain could have done the same ... but what use would that information have been to them?
The Far Trader was going to get boarded no matter what, and the Far Trader's crew would have been outnumbered in a firefight inside the ship, so resistance (ship to ship, man to man) would only have gotten them killed ... and for what? The Far Trader didn't have any options in how to respond to the situation, because the Patrol Cruiser had overwhelming manpower, firepower and maneuvering power (as it should!) relative to the Far Trader. So that was my rationale for why the Far Trader captain didn't make the attempt to cross-check the Patrol Cruiser's credentials, because the answer to the question wouldn't have helped, and the delay in response could have provoked a more hostile encounter.

By contrast, the Spinward Flex Courier DID have options at their disposal, thanks to their powerful maneuver drive (as designed), so knowing preemptively if the Patrol Cruiser was legitimate or not was absolutely critical in knowing whether to cut and run after being contacted and ordered to submit to being boarded for inspection ... hence the call to Starport Control.

 

[Spinward Flow]

this part of the Thread really makes you think of a Ships build out for it's mission, and Crew requirements and their skills to meet that mission.

Aye. :coffeesip:
A lot of the time, it's "all too easy" to just look at a USP and gloss over all kinds of little details that can make a difference in how a starship operates in actual practice so as to simply focus on the "sexy stuff" that's nice and obvious.

Things like "Jump-1 is enough, Jump-2 is a waste" only works when looking at spreadsheets, not when actually needing to go to SOME places on the map while being able to "skip over" others (including empty deep space hexes). Other things like "1G is enough, 2G is marginal, more than 3G is just extravagance" can fall into the same mindset.

How many weapons does a ship have?
What kinds of weapons?
Are the weapons "cool" enough?

I've seen enough ship designs that splurge on weapons while skimping on computer model to make me shake my head in disgust.

X-mail vs passenger capacity vs cargo capacity is yet another one of these subtle breakpoints in the economics of starship operations that isn't inherently obvious from the start. The key thing that I've been trying to get across over the course of this entire thread is that low(er) revenue on low overhead costs can be quite competitive with high(er) revenue on higher overhead costs ... which sounds like it ought to be self evident when you say it, but the functioning of it isn't always intuitively understood until you can see the differences demonstrated (like I'm doing here).

Yes, the Far Trader can generate higher profits when its manifest of high/low passengers and cargo is full to capacity and the ship doesn't need to pay for starport fuel or orbital shuttle services ... but those conditions basically necessitate sticking to trade routes between populated worlds (population code: 5+). Any mainworlds with a population code of 4- and the Far Trader is going to struggle to utilize its passenger and cargo capacity.

Contrast this with the Spinward Flex Courier that can generate enough revenue to operate at a profit on x-mail ALONE, although it obviously generates even more profit margin with standard cargo to transport. Speculative cargo is, by its very nature ... speculative ... but so long as you aren't buying EVERY speculative cargo that is offered to you, only the ones that look like you can profit off them based on where you're going next ... you can stack the odds in your favor of being able to see spectacular profit returns on speculative cargo. You just need to "keep your ears open" (the 7th Rule of Acquisition).

looking forward to the rest of the Journey of Comparison, especially when these 2 ships return to this system going the other way.

Although the race for 1st and 2nd place is essentially "decided" at this point, I do intend to keep following it all the way back to D'Ganzio so as to generate an After Action Report by the (dreaded) "bean counters" of the Accounting Department(s) that will tally up, review and draw conclusions based on how each starship performed over the course of the Race To Profitability so as to determine which type the merchant line intends to go "all in on" with future purchases and expansion of the line.

I'm biased, of course, in this respect ... since I designed the Spinward Flex Courier and both sincerely and honestly believe it to be the superior product choice in the all around sense. For one thing, the Spinward Flex Courier isn't even being utilized to its full capacity and capability during this demonstration race, while the Far Trader IS being utilized to its full capacity given prevailing market conditions at every port of call, so there's a bit of a mismatch in that regard between the two starships and what they can "do" in actual operation. However, if the Spinward Flex Courier winds up breaking even or even "winning" on bulk cargo (excluding speculative) revenue against a Far Trader, despite the Far Trader's high revenue generation potential ... I'm thinking that is going to speak volumes as to the "soundness" of the design decisions and compromises that went into the Spinward Flex Courier as a decidedly non-standard starship type meant to serve a remarkably underserved niche market ... the fringes and backwater systems that are NOT profitable for other ship types to call on and do business with.

When you can grow your business where others can't, you can corner those markets for yourself and not have to worry about too much competition ... meaning once you get past the initial investment, it's all gravy, baby.



Oh and in case it wasn't already obvious enough, the Spinward Flex Courier (or its TL=11 predecessor, the 5G Spinward X-Courier) make for EXCELLENT starships that can be adapted to all kind of wonderful adventures for campaigns where PCs can get up to all manner of shenanigans with their starships. As a Referee, I'd honestly be curious to see what a crew (of 2) PCs would be able to do with one of these ships (and what kinds of aftermarket modifications they would want to make with one).

 

[Grav_Moped]

Under the circumstances, once the (pirate) Patrol Cruiser detected the Far Trader and confirmed their outbound trajectory, the battle was already decided. Even if the Far Trader had been armed (which it isn't, but even if it had been) ... even if it had been HEAVILY ARMED ... in my opinion, against a Patrol Cruiser, the smart play on the part of the Far Trader would have been to surrender without firing a shot. If the Far Trader even attempted to resist being boarded, the possible damage to the Far Trader could have been catastrophic.

If they're outbound and outside 10 diameters, they could jump (assuming CT rules).

With unrefined fuel, it's a 2D roll of 7+ (58.333%) to misjump, but only destructively so if that roll is 10+ (16.67%). A snap J1 (possible in 1 HG turn since Pn=2Jn) leaves them with J1 fuel on jump exit, which might be enough. In most of the 6 directions from Choleosti, the odds of coming out within 1 hex of a world are pretty good, based on the rules as written.

It turns out that 89.9% of the time (weighted for probability by distance*), a misjump from Choleosti/Villis (SM 1018) is self-recoverable with a Jump-1. That is, it exits in a hex that either contains a world or is adjacent to a hex containing a world.

This means that a snap jump-1 in the 10D-100D zone with unrefined fuel is survivable about 78% of the time if you started with fuel for a Jump-2.

Survivable outcomes and probabilities thereof:
1. Normal Jump: 41.67%
2. Misjump that's self-recoverable with J-1: 37.45%
Total probability of survivable outcome: 78.12%

Fatal outcomes and probabilities thereof:
1. Misjump not self-recoverable with J-1: 4.22%
2. Ship destroyed: 16.67%
Total probability of non-survivable outcome: 20.89%

(Rounding errors mean this only adds up to 99.01%, but I'm not going to track them down tonight.)

I'm deliberately excluding "running out of fuel if Jump lasts longer than 4 weeks" because IMO that's something that got broken by the "Pn must equal Jn" change in 2nd edition Classic Traveler. A misjump therefore only uses a week of fuel regardless of duration.


The decision to make a high-risk jump really depends on whether you expect the pirates to let you live.


Of course, jumping from inside 10D is an automatic "ship destroyed" result regardless of fuel type.



*See my post here for the distance probability distribution.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If they're outbound and outside 10 diameters, they could jump (assuming CT rules).

With unrefined fuel, it's a 2D roll of 7+ (58.333%) to misjump, but only destructively so if that roll is 10+ (16.67%). A snap J1 (possible in 1 HG turn since Pn=2Jn) leaves them with J1 fuel on jump exit, which might be enough. In most of the 6 directions from Choleosti, the odds of coming out within 1 hex of a world are pretty good, based on the rules as written.

It turns out that 89.9% of the time (weighted for probability by distance*), a misjump from Choleosti/Villis (SM 1018) is self-recoverable with a Jump-1. That is, it exits in a hex that either contains a world or is adjacent to a hex containing a world.

This means that a snap jump-1 in the 10D-100D zone with unrefined fuel is survivable about 78% of the time if you started with fuel for a Jump-2.

Fortunately, this is a testable proposition!
So let's test it.

Now add in the fact that even if the Far Trader didn't get hit (or damaged) in the first round of combat ... it would have NO WAY OF ESCAPING the battle except by jumping ... within 100 diameters of the gas giant, due to the scenario described. It could be done, I suppose, by the end of round 2 of combat (at a greater risk of a misjump) after needing to declare the intent to break off by jumping in the pre-combat decision step of round 1 in order to build up the necessary EPs to jump at the end of round 2. The problem is, that means the Far Trader would be exposed to attacks for 2 combat rounds, not just 1 ... so 4 shots instead of only 2 ... and if the Patrol Cruiser won initiative in round 2 and chose close range in round 2, their To Hit rolls would have been 7+ for pulse lasers and 6+ for missiles in round 2.

When ANY hits from the Patrol Cruiser's weapons means an automatic critical hit (weapon code:3 vs hull code: 2) and the Patrol Cruiser gets to attack with dice rolls of 8+/5+ (long range) or 7+/6+ (short range) ... if I'm the Far Trader captain on the receiving end of that incoming fire ... the situation is NOT LOOKING GOOD for being able to escape unscathed. o:

{insert fast rewinding tape noises}

Clearance to liftoff from the Cholesti Station is granted at 3h 147-1105 (with a word of personal thanks for the badly needed computer parts). The Far Trader begins its outbound transit to a jump point, a distance of 5,404,000km, which at 1G takes 775 minutes (13 hours). During this ascent away from Choleosti (2D6=10) a 400-ton Patrol Cruiser approaching on an intercept vector makes contact with the Far Trader 5 hours into the transit.

• Patrol Cruiser (comm): Attention Far Trader. This is the Choleosti system defense Patrol Cruiser. We have you on our scanners and are vectoring towards you. You are hereby ordered to cut your maneuver drives and prepare to be boarded for inspection of your passengers and cargo manifests for possible contraband. If you do not comply, we are authorized to open fire on your vessel. You have 1 minute to respond.

• Far Trader (comm): We read you Patrol Cruiser. We will comply with your orders. Shutting down maneuver drives. Be advised, we have no passengers aboard and only 20 tons of cargo bound for Margesi.

• Patrol Cruiser (comm): Acknowledged. Have everything in order for our inspection before we dock with your ship. Patrol Cruiser out.

Begin combat. (LBB5.80, p38-49)

Combat Round 1.

1. Battle formation: Patrol Cruiser and Far Trader are the only combatants, both are on the front line.
2. Initiative determination: Patrol Cruiser has higher agility and gets +1 DM on initiative roll.
   Patrol Cruiser (1D+1=4)
   Far Trader (1D=1)
   
   Patrol Cruiser wins initiative.​
3. Range determination: combat automatically begins at long range on first round.
4. Pre-combat decision: Far Trader is Breaking Off by Jumping (LBB5.80 p39) 1 parsec rimward (halfway to Margesi) from long range, which will require 2 combat rounds to complete power buildup for Jump-1 (Far Trader has BAA drives, Jump-2, Maneuver-1, Power Plant-1). Patrol Cruiser does not use Emergency Agility. Far Trader was ordered to cut maneuver drive, not shut down power plant, and power plant output does not need to change to enable Breaking Off by Jumping so sensor readings received by the Patrol Cruiser do not betray the Far Trader captain's intention to Break Off by Jumping.
   Patrol Cruiser: computer 3, agility: 2
   Far Trader: computer 1, agility: 0 (complying with orders to cut maneuver drive)
5. Combat step: Far Trader is unarmed and cannot attack or defend. Patrol Cruiser has weapons armed and ready but does not attack because Far Trader is complying with orders.
   Patrol Cruiser (TL=10, LBB2.81 p20): 6 Pulse Lasers (1 battery, code: 3), 6 Missile Launchers (1 battery, code: 3)
   Far Trader (TL=9): no weapons
   • Hit determination: skip.
   • Defensive Fire: skip.
   • Passive Defense: skip.
   • Damage Determination: skip.
6. Damage Step: skip.
7. Breakthrough Step: skip (no ships in reserve).
8. Pursuit Step: skip.
9. Terminal Step: Far Trader requires 1 more combat round before Breaking Off by Jumping.

Combat Round 2.

1. Battle formation: Patrol Cruiser and Far Trader are the only combatants, both are on the front line.
2. Initiative determination: Patrol Cruiser has higher agility and gets +1 DM on initiative roll.
   Patrol Cruiser (1D+1=2)
   Far Trader (1D=1)
   
   Patrol Cruiser wins initiative again.​
3. Range determination: Patrol Cruiser chooses short range.
4. Pre-combat decision: Far Trader is Breaking Off by Jumping (LBB5.80 p39) 1 parsec rimward (halfway to Margesi) from short range, which will occur in the Pursuit Step of combat round 2. Patrol Cruiser does not use Emergency Agility.
   Patrol Cruiser: computer 3, agility: 2
   Far Trader: computer 1, agility: 0 (complying with orders to cut maneuver drive)
5. Combat step: Far Trader is unarmed and cannot attack or defend. Patrol Cruiser has weapons armed and ready but does not attack because Far Trader is complying with orders.
   Patrol Cruiser (TL=10, LBB2.81 p20): 6 Pulse Lasers (1 battery, code: 3), 6 Missile Launchers (1 battery, code: 3)
   Far Trader (TL=9): no weapons
   • Hit determination: skip.
   • Defensive Fire: skip.
   • Passive Defense: skip.
   • Damage Determination: skip.
6. Damage Step: skip.
7. Breakthrough Step: skip (no ships in reserve).
8. Pursuit Step: The Far Trader successfully executes a Break Off by Jumping 1 parsec rimward towards Margesi before Patrol Cruiser can dock for boarding action.
9. Terminal Step: skip.

End combat.

Misjump: Each time the ship engages in a jump, throw 13+ for a misjump: Apply the following DMs: +I if using unrefined fuel (and not equipped to do so), +5 if within 100 planetary diameters of a world, + 15 if within 10 planetary diameters of a world. If the result is 16+, then the ship is destroyed.
A misjump is an unpredictable random jump. Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1 to 6); throw that number of dice to determine the number of hexes in length the misjump is. Then throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six directions possible on the hex grid). Finally, throw one die to determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship re-emerges at its new location.

Far Trader jumped within 100 diamaters but more than 10 diameters of the gas giant Monoda using unrefined fuel. Misjump chance DM is +1+5=+6.

Now, if using the original misjump dice roll from the Far Trader surrender scenario ...

At 9h 147-1105, the Far Trader initiates jump-1 to deep space, halfway to Margesi/Vilis and (2D=7) does not misjump if beyond 100 diamaters of Monoda.

However ... 2D+6=7+6=13 ... misjump.
Misjump dice quantity: 1D=5
Distance: 5D=14 parsecs
Direction (clockwise, 6=Coreward): 1D=2
Weeks in jump: 1D=2 weeks

At 9h 147-1105, the Far Trader initiates jump-1 to deep space, halfway to Margesi/Vilis and (2D+6=7+6=13) misjumps to Gandr/Lunion 14 parsecs away. (map link)
Time spent in misjump is 332 hours (13 days, 20 hours).
Breakout from misjump somewhere in the Gandr/Lunion system occurs at 5h 161-1105.

Considering the Far Trader is operating under subsidy contract for the D'Ganzio to Ficant systems ... all of the time spent simply jumping through Lunion subsector to get back to D'Ganzio/Lanth would have to be counted as "off route" time, of which per subsidy contract only 30% of a year can be spent on.
365 * 0.3 = 109.5 days
16 weeks = 112 days
D'Ganzio/Lanth is 6 jumps away from Gandr/Lunion when limited to Jump-2.
Recovery from misjumping to Gandr/Lunion should require at least 1 day (16 hour routine drive maintenance is IMPERATIVE after a misjump! o and in order to return to the contracted subsidy route in time, the Far Trader may not have the luxury of time to be able to pick up passengers and cargo (let alone speculative cargo) along the route back to D'Ganzio if the captain doesn't want to lose their subsidy contract. :rant:

So ... you tell me, Grav_Moped ... which was the better choice for the Far Trader captain to make?
The "sure bet" of surrendering to the Patrol Cruiser, allowing them to board the Far Trader, confiscate the cargo and demand a MCr 6 ransom of the starship?
Or ... risking a misjump that could put their subsidy contract with government of Vilis/Vilis in jeopardy (in which case the crew either loses the ship or they steal it for themselves)? o:

 

[Spinward Flow]

Also, just as a side note ... one of the idiosyncrasies of the LBB5.80 combat system is that even if the Far Trader is not maneuvering (agility zero) and the Patrol Cruiser is manevuering so as to close range ... it is perfectly possible for the Far Trader to have won initiative in Combat Round 2 and chosen to keep the range between the two combatants at long range.

So even though the Patrol Cruiser is doing all of the maneuvering in the scenario, depending on how the dice rolls turned out, every time the Far Trader won initiative in Combat Rounds 2+ would have delayed the Patrol Cruiser from being able to maneuver into close range to conduct the boarding action.

Now, from a Murphy's Rules perspective, this might seem somewhat ridiculous, since theoretically so long as the Far Trader continues to win initiative each combat round they can in effect "hold off" the Patrol Cruiser from being able to dock with and board the Far Trader "indefinitely" so long as the Far Trader continues to win initiative.

From a Referee's perspective, what such an outcome would effectively mean is that the Patrol Cruiser's bridge crew (specifically the pilot and navigator) are just really bad at their jobs such that they keep messing up the rendezvous course trajectory ... even though the Far Trader isn't maneuvering (per orders) and is simply on an orbital trajectory outbound from the gas giant Monoda to a jump point 100 diameters away from the gas giant (doesn't have to be anywhere specific, just far enough away).

Without maneuvering power, it would take the Far Trader longer (in time) to reach the jump point 100 diameters distant from the gas giant, but the Far Trader was 5 hours into a 13 hour transit and just coasting on inertia could put them on an eccentric orbital path that would eventually take them out to the 100 diameters distance, at which point they would be free to jump.

At 20 minutes per combat round (LBB5.80, p38), even if the Far Trader were maneuvering under power, it would have taken them an additional 8 hours (28,800 seconds) at 1G to reach the jump point after being contacted by the Patrol Cruiser ... which would be 24 combat rounds in a row of winning initiative against the Patrol Cruiser to keep the Patrol Cruiser at long range, unable to "catch up with" and board the Far Trader. Without maneuvering power, it would have taken even longer (and therefore more combat rounds than that, and I'm not going to bother calculating how many) in order to achieve this feat of consistently rolling +2 higher on 1D than the Patrol Cruiser without failing even ONCE.

Is that POSSIBLE? o:
Well ... anything is POSSIBLE ...

Is that outcome LIKELY?
:rofl:
NO.

So although the notion that a Far Trader at 0G maneuvering power can "hold off" a Patrol Cruiser at 4G from maneuvering into short range seems nonsensical on its face ... in actual practice all it would really mean is that it's simply taking "longer" for the Patrol Cruiser to alter course enough to match trajectory and velocity with the Far Trader in order to close into docking range (for, insert {reasons} ... which could be anything from crew incompetence to the need to avoid "terrain hazards" of orbital debris around the gas giant to having particularly incompatible vectors to start with, requiring longer to match vectors and positioning).

So what FEELS LIKE ought to be a Murphy's Rules type of situation isn't necessarily one ... it just requires a bit more creative thinking on how to interpret the results of the dice rolls by the Referee.
Point being, just because it might take a ship 40 minutes to complete a docking maneuver if everything goes smoothly ... does not ipso facto mean that the docking maneuver will be completed in 40 minutes (as planned). It might take longer than that to achieve proper alignment and course correction and velocity matching and ... and ... and ... :CoW:

 

[mike wightman]

This is one of the reasons HG combat is a poor fit for LBB2 scale combat - it was never intended to be used to resolve such battles.

I notice the far trader crew are not allowed to contact traffic control like the courier did - bit of bias there.

Why did the patrol cruiser not use its 6g ship's boat to prevent the courier from breaking off by acceleration?

Why are there no system patrol ships that can come to the assistance of either ship?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Fortunately, this is a testable proposition!
So let's test it.


{insert fast rewinding tape noises}


Begin combat. (LBB5.80, p38-49)

Combat Round 1.

1. Battle formation: Patrol Cruiser and Far Trader are the only combatants, both are on the front line.
2. Initiative determination: Patrol Cruiser has higher agility and gets +1 DM on initiative roll.
   Patrol Cruiser (1D+1=4)
   Far Trader (1D=1)
   
   Patrol Cruiser wins initiative.​
3. Range determination: combat automatically begins at long range on first round.
4. Pre-combat decision: Far Trader is Breaking Off by Jumping (LBB5.80 p39) 1 parsec rimward (halfway to Margesi) from long range, which will require 2 combat rounds to complete power buildup for Jump-1 (Far Trader has BAA drives, Jump-2, Maneuver-1, Power Plant-1). Patrol Cruiser does not use Emergency Agility. Far Trader was ordered to cut maneuver drive, not shut down power plant, and power plant output does not need to change to enable Breaking Off by Jumping so sensor readings received by the Patrol Cruiser do not betray the Far Trader captain's intention to Break Off by Jumping.
   Patrol Cruiser: computer 3, agility: 2
   Far Trader: computer 1, agility: 0 (complying with orders to cut maneuver drive)
5. Combat step: Far Trader is unarmed and cannot attack or defend. Patrol Cruiser has weapons armed and ready but does not attack because Far Trader is complying with orders.
   Patrol Cruiser (TL=10, LBB2.81 p20): 6 Pulse Lasers (1 battery, code: 3), 6 Missile Launchers (1 battery, code: 3)
   Far Trader (TL=9): no weapons
   • Hit determination: skip.
   • Defensive Fire: skip.
   • Passive Defense: skip.
   • Damage Determination: skip.
6. Damage Step: skip.
7. Breakthrough Step: skip (no ships in reserve).
8. Pursuit Step: skip.
9. Terminal Step: Far Trader requires 1 more combat round before Breaking Off by Jumping.

Combat Round 2.

1. Battle formation: Patrol Cruiser and Far Trader are the only combatants, both are on the front line.
2. Initiative determination: Patrol Cruiser has higher agility and gets +1 DM on initiative roll.
   Patrol Cruiser (1D+1=2)
   Far Trader (1D=1)
   
   Patrol Cruiser wins initiative again.​
3. Range determination: Patrol Cruiser chooses short range.
4. Pre-combat decision: Far Trader is Breaking Off by Jumping (LBB5.80 p39) 1 parsec rimward (halfway to Margesi) from short range, which will occur in the Pursuit Step of combat round 2. Patrol Cruiser does not use Emergency Agility.
   Patrol Cruiser: computer 3, agility: 2
   Far Trader: computer 1, agility: 0 (complying with orders to cut maneuver drive)
5. Combat step: Far Trader is unarmed and cannot attack or defend. Patrol Cruiser has weapons armed and ready but does not attack because Far Trader is complying with orders.
   Patrol Cruiser (TL=10, LBB2.81 p20): 6 Pulse Lasers (1 battery, code: 3), 6 Missile Launchers (1 battery, code: 3)
   Far Trader (TL=9): no weapons
   • Hit determination: skip.
   • Defensive Fire: skip.
   • Passive Defense: skip.
   • Damage Determination: skip.
6. Damage Step: skip.
7. Breakthrough Step: skip (no ships in reserve).
8. Pursuit Step: The Far Trader successfully executes a Break Off by Jumping 1 parsec rimward towards Margesi before Patrol Cruiser can dock for boarding action.
9. Terminal Step: skip.

End combat.



Far Trader jumped within 100 diamaters but more than 10 diameters of the gas giant Monoda using unrefined fuel. Misjump chance DM is +1+5=+6.

Now, if using the original misjump dice roll from the Far Trader surrender scenario ...



However ... 2D+6=7+6=13 ... misjump.
Misjump dice quantity: 1D=5
Distance: 5D=14 parsecs
Direction (clockwise, 6=Coreward): 1D=2
Weeks in jump: 1D=2 weeks

At 9h 147-1105, the Far Trader initiates jump-1 to deep space, halfway to Margesi/Vilis and (2D+6=7+6=13) misjumps to Gandr/Lunion 14 parsecs away. (map link)
Time spent in misjump is 332 hours (13 days, 20 hours).
Breakout from misjump somewhere in the Gandr/Lunion system occurs at 5h 161-1105.

Considering the Far Trader is operating under subsidy contract for the D'Ganzio to Ficant systems ... all of the time spent simply jumping through Lunion subsector to get back to D'Ganzio/Lanth would have to be counted as "off route" time, of which per subsidy contract only 30% of a year can be spent on.
365 * 0.3 = 109.5 days
8 weeks = 112 days
D'Ganzio/Lanth is 6 jumps away from Gandr/Lunion when limited to Jump-2.
Recovery from misjumping to Gandr/Lunion should require at least 1 day (16 hour routine drive maintenance is IMPERATIVE after a misjump! o and in order to return to the contracted subsidy route in time, the Far Trader will not have the luxury of time to be able to pick up passengers and cargo (let alone speculative cargo) along the route back to D'Ganzio if the captain doesn't want to lose their subsidy contract. :rant:

So ... you tell me, Grav_Moped ... which was the better choice for the Far Trader captain to make?
The "sure bet" of surrendering to the Patrol Cruiser, allowing them to board the Far Trader, confiscate the cargo and demand a MCr 6 ransom of the starship?
Or ... risking a misjump that could put their subsidy contract with government of Vilis/Vilis in jeopardy (in which case the crew either loses the ship or they steal it for themselves)? o:

You missed a step.

Step 0: A2 captain realizes that the authorities would have done any needed inspections while they were still at the starport, and correctly guesses that this is a piracy attempt.

They're now facing a 400Td ship that their sensors can't yet confirm is actually a Type T at this range, but which has demonstrated 4G acceleration capability and is operating under false pretenses. Immediate reaction: RUN!

Remember, you're saying the A2 is a '77-rules build. Therefore, it should function according to LBB2 '77 rules.
Turn 1:
Intruder Player Turn: The only relevant action is the Type T closing the range.
Native Player Turn: No maneuver, no firing. The computer has Maneuver, Navigate, Jump-1, and Generate loaded in the CPU (Jump-2 having been dumped the moment they went into contingency mode). Run Generate during the turn, start the Jump fuel burn at this point.
Native Ordinance Launch: Generate has finished its run and provides a J-1 course.
Game Turn Interphase: Jump drive activates. Roll for misjump.

Elapsed time: 1 LBB2 '77 turn.

There is no need for a second turn.

We are now 10 minutes into the first High Guard combat turn.

Now, to address a couple of potential objections:
1. I'm assuming the A2 has a jump governor, because you've been treating it as though it did so far. Misjump survival odds are much lower if you can't jump again afterwards...
2. Energy points didn't exist in LBB2 '77 (or '81 for that matter). Even if they did, the jump drive didn't need them under '77 rules.
3. In a CT Second Edition universe, the A2 has enough power to do a Jump-1 at the end of the first turn because it has to have a Power Plant B even if it only has a Maneuver Drive A.


And to reiterate an earlier point: the choice between hoisting the white flag or fleeing down the rabbit hole depends on the reputation that pirates have.

You think pirates will just take the cargo and leave politely.

I'm assuming that what's at risk isn't just the cargo, but the (vastly more valuable) ship itself, and the lives of its crew.

Subsidy contracts and a few dozen tons of cargo are minor considerations when balanced against, you know, losing the ship and/or getting killed.

If the pirates take the ship, this contest is over regardless: your ship wins by default.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This is one of the reasons HG combat is a poor fit for LBB2 scale combat - it was never intended to be used to resolve such battles.

I call BS ... and as evidence I offer the fact that I just did it (twice).
In fact, it took me longer to type it up than it took to resolve it ... both times.

Your witness, counselor. :coffeesip:

I notice the far trader crew are not allowed to contact traffic control like the courier did - bit of bias there.

Already addressed.
IF the Far Trader had confirmed the Patrol Cruiser's identity was being faked ... how would that have changed the Far Trader's situation, options and/or command decision process?

The Far Trader wouldn't have been able to outmaneuver the Patrol Cruiser.
The Far Trader couldn't outgun the Patrol Cruiser.
The Far Trader crew couldn't repel boarders except at extreme risk to life and limb (their own! ).
The Far Trader could attempt to Break Off by Jumping ... but in order to avoid a misjump, the dice roll needs to be 2D=6- ... meaning a greater than 50% chance of a misjump. :CoW:

Additionally, the Far Trader is a TL=9 starship.
The Patrol Cruiser is TL=10.
The Spinward Flex Courier is TL=13.
I know I didn't make a big (enough) deal about this point in the results post, but as a Referee I would say it's an easy call to decide that the Patrol Cruiser would be able to "eavesdrop" on a communication from the Far Trader to Starport Control, since the Patrol Cruiser is +1 TL to the Far Trader ... while being much less likely to intercept and decode (and therefore "eavesdrop") on a communication from the Spinward Flex Courier to Starport Control, since the Patrol Cruiser is -3 TL to the Spinward Flex Courier.

So in terms of being able to keep secure communications "secure" the Spinward Flex Courier could contact Starport Control on a private channel, while if the Far Trader attempted to do the same that contact would most likely be recognized (and possibly even decoded in real time). When you have a starship with weapons locked on you that has declared its intentions to open fire if you do not comply with their orders ... do you, as a Far Trader captain, risk antagonizing them by asking a 3rd party for their credentials in a way that the Patrol Cruiser could very likely learn about if you make the attempt? Even if the Patrol Cruiser WERE legitimate (which they weren't in this case, but even if they were) such an "authentication" attempt by the Far Trader would likely antagonize the crew of the Patrol Cruiser and give them an excuse to find all manner of ways to harass and delay the Far Trader from getting underway again. And if the Patrol Cruiser weren't legitimate and the Far Trader "got caught" trying to call for help (or even just verification of ID) then that could antagonize the pirates on that Patrol Cruiser in such a way that they could open fire (ship to ship) or engage in petty vandalism and sabotage after boarding the Far Trader, just to teach the Far Trader crew "a lesson" in compliance.

In other words, the Far Trader's options were to surrender the easy way ... or the hard way ... and the risks for each choice were not symmetrical.

Why did the patrol cruiser not use its 6g ship's boat to prevent the courier from breaking off by acceleration?

Because ... "discount pirates" ...
In other words, they didn't have a ship's boat ... only the Patrol Cruiser.

Not every pirate ship "comes with everything" that is original equipment for the ship.

Why are there no system patrol ships that can come to the assistance of either ship?

Type C substantially automated starport.
Population Code: *1*
Permanent population of the mainworld: 13 sophonts

System patrol ships don't grow on Trojan Points.
System defense boats/ships require an economy of sufficient size to sustain their operations via taxation. Choleosti flagrantly lacks sufficient population to be able to afford(!) any kind of system defense assets.
I mean, the population of 13 permanent residents can barely keep the automated starport operational ... let alone support any kind of offworld paramilitary patrol presence.

Yes, there is a garrison of Imperial marines on Choleosti ... but those are just marines posted to a ground station. They "patrol" the mainworld to keep things peaceful on the moon, but there is NO WAY they are going to be able to intervene in a ship on ship action that is HOURS (plural) away from the moon Choleosti in time to be able to make ANY difference whatsoever. I mean, even at 6G in a Ship's Boat launched from Choleosti to intervene ... those marines would only arrive by like combat round 8+ (if not later), and anything "important" would have happened long before then anyway. Even if the marines could have intervened, they would have arrived too late to the party to make a bit of difference.

In other words ... in Choleosti space ... you're on your own.
There just isn't enough of an in system economy to "secure" the orbital space around Monoda via routine system defense patrols.

The garrison of Imperial marines and navy traffic that comes through the system is merely enough to keep the pirates (and I quote) ... "polite" ... which I took to mean that if a ship didn't resist them they wouldn't go out of their way to trash and gut it just for spite. Confiscation of cargo and a ransom with no gratuitous damage to the Far Trader was as "polite" as I could allow for, under the circumstances (as a Referee) ... and that outcome was only possible if the Far Trader surrendered unconditionally and gave the Patrol Cruiser no trouble, resistance or grief.

Some days the bear gets you ... and on those days, it's best not to antagonize the bear BEFORE they get you. o:

 

[Spinward Flow]

You missed a step.

Step 0: A2 captain realizes that the authorities would have done any needed inspections while they were still at the starport, and correctly guesses that this is a piracy attempt.

Now you're just monday morning quarterbacking.
You're also using the spoiler of knowing the future before it happens.

In point of fact, it is perfectly possible that a Patrol Cruiser could be legitimately in the Choleosti system, dispatched there by the subsector navy headquartered at Frenzi/Vilis and that the Patrol Cruiser is on routine patrol. In other words, jumping to conclusions (IS a pirate, IS NOT a pirate) is something you shouldn't do as a captain, because if you're wrong things are going to go VERY BADLY for you.

Ah, but how would you "know" if the Patrol Cruiser was legit or not?
You have to ask an independent authority for verification, right?

Well, the Spinward Flex Courier was in a position to be able to obtain that verification, while the Far Trader was NOT in a good position to be able to obtain that verification (TL=13 vs TL=9 communications systems) while being actively monitored by a TL=10 Patrol Cruiser on an intercept course.

They're now facing a 400Td ship that their sensors can't yet confirm is actually a Type T at this range, but which has demonstrated 4G acceleration capability and is operating under false pretenses. Immediate reaction: RUN!

Far Trader can't run without a risk greater than 50% of a misjump (a HUGE risk!).
Spinward Flex Courier can run under maneuver power alone.

Again, the risks are NOT symmetrical due to the inherent design capabilities built into the respective starships.

Remember, you're saying the A2 is a '77-rules build. Therefore, it should function according to LBB2 '77 rules.

I'm just going to pretend you didn't advance such a ridiculous proposition.
Fair?

The entire point and purpose is to make both starship "play by the same rules" as much as possible, rather than cherry picking whichever rules set "works best for them" in particular circumstances.

Now, to address a couple of potential objections:
1. I'm assuming the A2 has a jump governor, because you've been treating it as though it did so far. Misjump survival odds are much lower if you can't jump again afterwards...
2. Energy points didn't exist in LBB2 '77 (or '81 for that matter). Even if they did, the jump drive didn't need them under '77 rules.
3. In a CT Second Edition universe, the A2 has enough power to do a Jump-1 at the end of the first turn because it has to have a Power Plant B even if it only has a Maneuver Drive A.

This has already been addressed repeatedly.

So I'm thinking that a straight up demonstration of economic advantage and viability is in order. Such a "competition" ought to be between a stock and standard unarmed Type A2 Far Trader (LBB S7, p23-27 and p46) and a Spinward Flex Courier as I've designed here.

TYPE A 2   FAR TRADER 
A-8456 Empress Nicholle A2-22211R1-000000-00000-0 MCr59.56 200 tons 
Crew=3. TL=9.
Book 2 Design.
Passengers=6.  Low=4. Cargo=61.  Fuel=50. Hardpoints=2. Agility=1.

And to reiterate an earlier point: the choice between hoisting the white flag or fleeing down the rabbit hole depends on the reputation that pirates have.

You think pirates will just take the cargo and leave politely.

Not think, as in know with certainty of foresight ... but HOPE, as a captain who cannot know the future with absolute certainty, that if no resistance is offered no permanent damage will be inflicted onto either the ship or the crew (although damage to the balance sheet of profits is another matter).

I'm assuming that what's at risk isn't just the cargo, but the (vastly more valuable) ship itself, and the lives of its crew.

Theoretically speaking, it certainly was within the realm of possibility that the pirates could have simply taken the Far Trader as a prize vessel and not given it back or ransomed it. However, doing so would necessarily involve ... "imperial entanglements" ... that the pirates may not have been willing to face (or be inclined to deal with).

I mean, think about this seriously, logically and in terms of consequences and logistics for a moment. For starters, look at where Choleosti/Vilis/Spinward Marches is on the map. The system is literally on the edge of Imperial space ... so if the pirates were to take the Far Trader as a prize ship, where would they have to take it in order to dispose of it (and get their money's worth out of it)? The nearest "chop shop" location they could haul the Far Trader to in order to break it down for parts to liquidate for cash would be at ... Tremous Dex/Vilis (type B starport, government: 1, law: 1) or Quare/Vilis (type B starport, government: 4, law: 5, requires passing through Frenzie/Vilis which has an Imperial Naval Base to reach Quare) outside of Imperial controlled space. Going Rimward, there's always the Sword Worlds ... but are these "discount pirates" welcome in the Sword Worlds? They might not be.

Yes the Far Trader is a valuable commodity in and of itself (MCr 59.56 list price to buy), but being able to make off with the whole starship and not get caught later by the subsector and/or imperial navy is a completely different matter. o:

"Greed, heedless of caution, has lured many a man to his death."

Think of it this way ... by ransoming the ship for 10% of its full value (MCr 6) to a cooperative captain who didn't kick up a fuss, the pirates can earn a tidy bit of profit (for a crew of 18) with effectively "no strings attached" and fly away with a clean pair of heels (so to speak). By not being too greedy the pirates successfully manage to elude almost all repercussions for their actions while still profiting from them.

The Spinward Flex Courier manages to grind out its profits on the steady margin granted by a reliable rate of return through x-mail.
The same type of "business model" can also apply to piracy, where it is possible to grind out profits through ransoms that victims are willing/able to pay in which no one gets hurt (aside from their bank accounts). By being "polite" about it and not terrorizing the shipping lanes, the pirates are better able to manage their risk/reward incentive structure and continue operating successfully, and profitably.

Subsidy contracts and a few dozen tons of cargo are minor considerations when balanced against, you know, losing the ship and/or getting killed.

Stealing the entire ship and taking the Far Trader as a pirate prize ship has a LOT of knock on consequences ... including rising on the list of pirate groups to be hunted down (and killed/put out of business) by the navy.

However, if you keep the piracy on the "down low" where no one gets permanently harmed or injured (aside from their credit balance), the pirates can keep a lower profile that makes it easier for the navy to turn a blind eye towards their activities. Depending on how you operate will decide how determined the navy will become to hunting you down and stopping you.

Or to put it another way, there's a big difference between the crimes of mugging and murder (with murder tending to provoke a more determined response). If petty theft happens right in front of them, the navy will step in to stop it ... but the navy can't be everywhere at once, and if the petty theft "isn't that bad" they may not bestir themselves to do something about it. Stealing entire starships (to either liquidate or use themselves) and "disposing" of the former crew ... that's a whole other order of magnitude of crime(s), enough to get the navy to want to put resources into a region of space to stamp that {redacted} out before it spreads.

If the pirates take the ship, this contest is over regardless: your ship wins by default.

There's that too, but that's not why I ruled that the Far Trader captain and the pirates behaved the way that they did (because of the race). Instead, I tried to take the perspective of each party in that specific situation and operated from the assumption that no one wanted to make "a mess of things" if they didn't have to. If the pirates could manage a quick "snatch and grab" then that was enough for them. They weren't out for blood (take no prisoners!) and they weren't going to attempt to "take it all" just because they could (after all, where could they go with the Far Trader?). A quick profit with no casualties or wounded counts as a "win" for that (discount) pirate crew, no need to get greedy and wind up losing it all.

The Far Trader captain's motivations have already been explained and reviewed (at length). In the captain's judgement, the risks of being boarded were lower than the risks of misjumping (and, as it turns out, the Far Trader captain was right). Although their profit margin was harmed (to the tune of ~10% of the starship's value!), no crew were injured and the Far Trader itself sustained no damage from the encounter. The only way the situation could have turned out better is if the pirates had demanded a smaller ransom (I was initially thinking of a MCr 1 ask, but then decided to roll 1D and got a 6, so the ransom demand turned into MCr 6 instead). If resistance had been offered, things could have gotten much MUCH worse in a hurry ... so no resistance was offered, because the risks were asymmetrical.

 

[Grav_Moped]

This is not an asymmetric risk.

A "hope" of surviving if they surrender isn't 100%. I'm placing a much lower value on it than you apparently did.

Also, I've demonstrated that a misjump is very survivable under CT rules. Economically catastrophic, probably. But if there's less than 4:1 odds the pirates will let you go (and that's economically catastrophic too), jumping out is the lesser risk. And the A2 captain doesn't have the benefit of knowing the future to know that you've attacked him with polite pirates.

Where to fence a stolen Imperial-registered ship? Two jumps gets you into Sword Worlds territory! They won't ask questions if you don't actually try to sell it there, which lets you get through to go around the Darrians and into the pocket empires of Foreven Sector. And you can use the Type T as a tanker to refuel the stolen A2, so the prize ship doesn't even need to show itself while in Imperial space.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This is not an asymmetric risk.

A "hope" of surviving if they surrender isn't 100%.

I never said the odds of surviving an unconditional surrender were 100%.

I'm placing a much lower value on it than you apparently did.

Obviously ... o:

Also, I've demonstrated that a misjump is very survivable under CT rules. Economically catastrophic, probably.

And now you're quibbling over the determination of calculated risk. I never said misjumps weren't survivable, I merely pointed out that they are inherently RISKY. You place a low value on that risk factor and don't see it as something to actively work to avoid at all costs.

Well, when you run your campaign setting, you're welcome to choose The Path Not Taken™ in this one.

But if there's less than 4:1 odds the pirates will let you go

More monday morning quarterbacking.
You're just pulling that risk assessment out of ... somewhere that doesn't need to be specified. I've already explained the chain of events, including the perceptions and options available as those events were unfolding, and all you can do is second guess the command decisions that led to an outcome that you don't approve of.

Well, when you run your campaign setting, you're welcome to smash and grab starships using pirates as much as you want. :toast:

jumping out is the lesser risk.

Chance of a misjump is (and was known to be by the captain) higher than 50/50 under the described conditions.
Good day, sir.

And the A2 captain doesn't have the benefit of knowing the future to know that you've attacked him with polite pirates.

Now you're just being silly.
You can stop now.

Where to fence a stolen Imperial-registered ship? Two jumps gets you into Sword Worlds territory!

Already addressed.
Go on ... admit it. You just want to wreck Team Far Trader for shizzle.
There's no need to hide it.

They won't ask questions if you don't actually try to sell it there, which lets you get through to go around the Darrians and into the pocket empires of Foreven Sector. And you can use the Type T as a tanker to refuel the stolen A2, so the prize ship doesn't even need to show itself while in Imperial space.

Right ... o:
So rather than taking the money and running, you think the pirates should have taken the starship and run ... to the next sector Spinward, if necessary, and abandon their current hunting grounds and bases and support network because ... they got greedy and stole an A2 Far Trader.

To use a sporting metaphor, that's akin to scoring one goal and then quitting the team because you'll never need to play again for the rest of your life.

You're completely discounting the FACT that a stolen starship is a liability to a pirate until it is liquidated for cash or otherwise "hacked" and altered to change its identity. Even with a "five finger discount" on acquisition, it still costs money to operate and maintain a starship, meaning it needs supplies and support to remain in working condition. My point being that keeping the Far Trader would be an encumbrance to the pirates, especially in the region of space where the starship was captured.

At best (or worst, depending on your perspective) the Far Trader could have been taken back to the pirate's "lair" so as to give it a makeover by their engineers (new transponder, the works) and turn it into a runner that carries supplies to support their operations and logistics. But where might that "lair" be?

I mean, you're acting as if stealing starships happens all the time and it never leaves a trail back to the pirate's "lair" (how could it?). You're talking about the prospect as if it's all reward with no risks involved (or at least, none that any pirate would bat an eyepatch at).



Well, if you want to use the pirate attack on a Far Trader at Choleosti as the starting point point for a campaign you want to run ... have at it.

Meanwhile ... IMTU where the Race To Profitability is being run ... the Far Trader was ransomed and no one got hurt (aside from the Accounting Department).
You're welcome.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Margesi C575677 – 6 (Agricultural, Non-industrial, A) to Vilis A593943 – A (Industrial)
Margesi world size: 5 (7200km)
100 diameters = 720,000km

Origin (Margesi): Starport C, Size 5, Population 6, Amber Zone
Destination (Vilis): Starport A, Size 5, Population 9
DM: +3 (passenger), +1 (cargo), -4 (tech level), +0 first die (speculative cargo)
Passengers: 3D-2D High, 3D-2D Middle, 3D Low
Cargo: 1D+2 Major, 1D+3 Minor, 1D-3 Incidental
Starship Encounters: C 2D (10 is pirate)

Passengers
3D-2D-1 = 11-6-1 = 4 High
3D-2D-1 = 9-3-1 = 5 Middle
3D-1 = 11-1 = 10 Low

Cargo
1D-1 = 6-1 = 5 Major (40, 20, 60, 40 60 ton lots)
1D = 5 = 5 Minor (30, 20, 15, 30, 30 ton lots)
1D-6 = 0 Incidental

Speculative Cargo
53 Computers (TL=6). MCr 10 (base price), DM: +0 price modifier. 5x 1 ton model/1bis (MCr 20 actual total value)
Buy price (2D+0=4): 70% base price (MCr 14 total for 5x model/1bis)



Far Trader

Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Margesi/Vilis occurs at 22h 154-1105, ~720,000km from Margesi.
Transit to Margesi downport is 720,000km, which at 1G takes 283 minutes (5 hours). During this descent to Margesi (2D6=3) there are no starship encounters, for which the Far Trader captain is honestly grateful.

By 3h 155-1105 the Far Trader has touched down in their assigned berth at the starport planetside.
The Far Trader has no cargo to unload, nor any passengers to disembark.

Berthing Fees: Cr 100 for 6 days​

Fuel state aboard the Far Trader is that 40 tons were used for a single jump-2 and the power plant has been operational for 9.5 days (3.4 tons), leaving only 1.6 tons of unrefined fuel remaining in the fuel tanks upon arrival at the Margesi starport. The captain decides to use wilderness refueling in the ocean on day 3 after arrival, which may result in a misjump to Vilis, while waiting for passengers and cargo to be brought to the starport for loading. Routine 16 hour drive maintenance will be completed while the captain negotiates for cargo and passengers.
During 155-1105 the captain pays out another half-month of crew salaries so the crew can afford to "waste their pay" on Margesi if they are so inclined.

Crew Salaries (2 weeks): Cr 6950​

Since Margesi is an Agricultural, Non-industrial world in the early atomic age of technology (TL=6) with a type C starport, negotiations for passengers and cargo bound for Vilis takes additional time (4 days) with the last passengers and cargo arriving at the starport on the morning of 163-1105, ship time (8 days after arrival planetside). All crew are to report fit for duty early 163-1105.

Berthing Fees: Cr 200 for additional 2 days​

While negotiating for passengers and cargo, the brokerage house the Far Trader previously sold Cybernetic Parts from Vilis through notifies the captain of an opportunity for a speculative cargo of locally produced model/1bis computers suitable for installation into IISS Scout/Couriers which have been put on the market but have not yet drawn any buyers. The captain follows up on the tip and decides to purchase the lot of starship computers at MCr 14 (half up front, half on delivery of the goods) for resale at Vilis, hopefully at a significant profit.

The captain books 4 high passengers, 3 middle passengers, 4 low passengers, along with 5 tons of speculative cargo (which the captain has to "buy" cargo space for to balance the books on the subsidy) and a single major cargo of 40 tons as well as a single minor cargo of 15 tons.

Life Support cost: Cr 20,000 (10 staterooms), Cr 400 (4 low berths)
Passenger revenue: Cr 64,000 (high), Cr 4000 (low)
Cargo Transport revenue: Cr 60,000 (60 tons)
Speculative Cargo purchase: MCr 14 (5 tons)
Speculative Cargo transport cost: Cr 5000 (5 tons)​

Cargo loading begins at 5h 163-1105 and all passengers are embarked with cargo finished loading aboard the Far Trader by 8h 163-1105.

Clearance to liftoff from the Margesi starport is granted at 9h 163-1105 after a 1 hour delay, followed by transit to an outbound jump point, a distance of 720,000km, which at 1G takes an additional 283 minutes (5 hours) to complete. During this transit to the jump point (2D6=6) no starship is encountered, for which the captain and crew share a sigh of relief.

At 14h 163-1105, the Far Trader initiates jump-2 to Vilis/Vilis and (2D=4) a misjump does not occur.
Time spent in jump will be 162 hours.
Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Vilis/Vilis will occur at 8h 170-1105.

Total gross costs in Margesi system: Cr 14,032,650
Total gross revenue in Margesi system: Cr 128,000
Remaining revenue after subsidy: Cr 64,000
Net profit in Margesi system: Cr -13,968,650
Total net profit from 0h 001-1105 through 8h 170-1105: Cr -174,075​

Spinward Flex Courier

Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Margesi/Vilis occurs at 20h 146-1105, ~720,000km from Margesi.
Transit to Margesi downport is 720,000km, which at 6G takes 116 minutes (2 hours). During this descent to Margesi (2D6=3) there are no starship encounters, for which the Spinward Flex Courier crew are honestly grateful.

By 22h 146-1105 the Spinward Flex Courier has touched down in their assigned berth at the starport planetside.
The Spinward Flex Courier has (up to 5 tons of) x-mail and 20 tons of cargo to unload, which takes 75 minutes (2 hours) to complete by 0h 147-1105.

Berthing Fees: Cr 100 for 6 days
X-mail Delivery revenue: Cr 25,000 (LBB2.81, p9)​

Fuel state aboard the Spinward Flex Courier is that 38.8 tons were used for a single jump-2 and the power plant has been operational for 9 days (3.8 tons), leaving only 2.1 tons of refined fuel remaining in the fuel tanks upon arrival at the Margesi starport. The captain decides to use wilderness refueling in the ocean on day 3 after arrival, which will leave plenty of time for fuel purification to complete while waiting for x-mail and cargo to be brought to the starport for loading. Routine 16 hour drive maintenance will be completed while the captain negotiates for cargo and passengers.

Since Margesi is an Agricultural, Non-industrial world in the early atomic age of technology (TL=6) with a type C starport, negotiations for passengers and cargo bound for Vilis takes additional time (4 days) with the last x-mail and cargo arriving at the starport very early in the morning of 155-1105, ship time (8 days after arrival planetside).
On 152-1105 the captain pays out another half-month of crew salaries 3 days early so the crew can afford to "waste their pay" on Margesi if they are so inclined. All crew are to report fit for duty late 154-1105.

Berthing Fees: Cr 200 for additional 2 days
Crew Salaries (2 weeks): Cr 3500​

While negotiating for passengers and cargo, the brokerage house the Spinward Flex Courier previously sold Cybernetic Parts from Vilis through notifies the captain of an opportunity for a speculative cargo of locally produced model/1bis computers suitable for installation into IISS Scout/Couriers which have been put on the market but have not yet drawn any buyers. The captain follows up on the tip and decides to purchase the lot of starship computers at MCr 14 (half up front, half on delivery of the goods) for resale at Vilis, hopefully at a significant profit.

The captain books (up to 5 tons of) x-mail, along with 5 tons of speculative cargo (which the captain has to "buy" cargo space for to balance the books on the subsidy) and a single major cargo of 20 tons as well as a single minor cargo of 15 tons.

Life Support cost: Cr 4000 (2 staterooms)
Cargo Transport revenue: Cr 40,000 (40 tons)
Speculative Cargo purchase: MCr 14 (5 tons)
Speculative Cargo transport cost: Cr 5000 (5 tons)​

Cargo loading begins at 2h 155-1105 and all x-mail and cargo are finished loading aboard the Spinward Flex Courier in 75 minutes (2 hours) by 4h 155-1105.

Clearance to liftoff from the Margesi starport is granted at 5h 155-1105 after a 1 hour delay, followed by transit to an outbound jump point, a distance of 720,000km, which at 6G takes 116 minutes (2 hours) to complete. During this transit to the jump point (2D6=6) no starship is encountered, for which the crew share a sigh of relief.

At 7h 155-1105, the Spinward Flex Courier initiates jump-2 to Vilis/Vilis.
Time spent in jump will be 162 hours.
Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Vilis/Vilis will occur at 1h 162-1105.

Total gross costs in Margesi system: Cr 14,012,800
Total gross revenue in Margesi system: Cr 65,000
Remaining revenue after subsidy: Cr 32,500
Net profit in Margesi system: Cr -13,989,300
Total net profit from 0h 001-1105 through 1h 162-1105: Cr 5,846,650​

 

[Spinward Flow]

Life for our "merchant prince" captains has fortunately returned to being less dramatic than being attacked by pirates.

With a full manifest of cargo and passengers to transport, Team Far Trader is actually winding up with a better profit margin on their balance sheet inside the Margesi system than Team Spinward Flex Courier can manage ... but Team Spinward Flex Courier is so far out in front at this point in the race that the profit advantage for Team Far Trader is feeling like a drop in the bucket relative to the difference between the two teams in this race.

And predictably enough, Team Spinward Flex Courier has been able to increase their time lead in the race to a whopping 8 days plus 7 hours by the times the respective teams break out of jump at Vilis. At this point in the race, it's fair to conclude that this tempo advantage for the Spinward Flex Courier is a combination of their powerful maneuver drive and (ironically) their smaller cargo hold/x-mail capacity (45 vs 61 tons) being faster to load and unload depending on the shipping manifest details at different starport types. Poorer starport facilities take longer to load and unload larger quantities of goods for shipment, which can make a difference at type D and E starports.

The speculative cargo of Computers (not Computer Parts this time) at Margesi was something of a surprise when I rolled it up, especially since Computers are THE most valuable speculative cargo type possible, ton for ton. In this case, there are 5 individual computers and since Margesi is TL=6 I figured that they're all model/1bis computers, so rather than using the speculative cargo value for them of MCr 10, I instead cross-referenced the price for model/1bis computers (MCr 4) and simply multiplied that by 5 to achieve a starting market price of MCr 20 for all 5 computers before applying the percentage value pricing modifier. Strangely enough, there will be no percentage value price modifier +/- DM when trying to sell them on Vilis, but since 2D=5+ will yield a profit, I'm thinking both captains will probably want to engage the services of a broker, possibly even a +4 broker (type A starport) so as to maximize their profit potential on the arbitrage sale. After all, with a +4 broker, the minimum price to sell (2D+4=2+4=6) is going to be MCr 18 for all 5 computers, which the broker would take a 20% commission on of MCr 3.6 ... yielding a "no lose" scenario in which the minimum profit gain at Vilis is Cr 395,000 on the Computers over their cost to buy and transport, while the maximum is far, far higher (maximum would be 2D+4=11+4=15 for a maximum sell price of MCr 80 of which the broker would take a 40% commission on of MCr 16 ... yielding a MCr 63.995 maximum profit on the shipment).

So I think the hiring of a +4 broker on Vilis is in order.

 

[Grav_Moped]

You keep focusing on how likely a misjump from there is, as though a successful jump is the only good outcome. I don't dispute that one bit; after all, it is the only good outcome.

But we're starting at a point where good outcomes aren't an option anymore. Just bad ones, weighted by likelihood and severity.

There's been a lot written about the economics of piracy in the Traveller universe. Some argue it can't work, others that it can (or at least should, for narrative purposes). One important point for those who think piracy is (or should be) viable is that if you're serious, you don't have to do it very often to make a living at it. Reselling a stolen A2 for 25% of its MSRP still gets you MCr18 or so. That's Cr1,000,000 per crew member on the Type T, for a few months work mostly spent shuffling the prize ship out to the wilderness. Even with a bit taken out for operating expenses, it's still enough to tide you over for a while.

Seizing cargo alone presents much the same risk, but for a far lower payout. So why would pirates bother with the small potatoes? (Apparently just taking small craft is the sweet spot -- they're high-value but not tracked as closely as starships.)

Anyhow.
If I'm a player running the A2, I'll take the surrender for meta-game reasons: the outcome isn't going to be a total party kill because if the referee wanted to do that, he'd have had the Type T come in guns blazing.

If I'm the A2 pilot in-universe, I'll risk the misjump because I know the pirate's economic incentives point toward taking the ship, and they've already announced they're ready to kill us all. I'm financially ruined either way, but fleeing into hyperspace gives me an 80% chance of survival and keeping the ship.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Very interesting read that piracy thread you provided. I don't think I had come across it before. However, I find it extremely interesting that a number of other posters posited exactly the scenario that I decided would be the case for the Far Trader at Choleosti.

Quoting from the piracy thread with some trimming and snipping for brevity and relevance to the subject of the pirate attack at Choleosti.

If I cannot act before trader reaches space, I'd probably go for some deception, like […] posing as an official "customs" ship so I can have a chance to board the trader without resistance.
[…]
My last concern would be where to sell my wrongly-acquired merchandise, if I'm not working for a client/fence having its own ship/procedures. That requires either some accomplice in a nearby world (to allow me to sell it as legitimate cargo), some lawless starport (but that might cost me more), or going for some quick "cargo ramp sale" (which won't allow me to get as much from the stolen goods I suspect).

Piracy begins planetside, with the pirates having agents scoping out possible targets. Priorities are 1: a target worth pirating (a cargo worth taking) 2: a target the pirates can catch (lower v and/or delta v at the point of interception) 3: a target that cannot resist (unarmed/lightly armed).

How the actual interception will be worked depends on the situation, but I imagine the pirate will try to deceive the target for as long as possible, probably be pretending to be something else (a ship in distress, a police/customs ship, a passing free trader, an asteroid, something innocuous).

And, on a related note, why would pirates just take the cargo and let the ship go? The ships are worth tens, if not hundreds, of times more than any cargo they might be carrying.

The pirates don't even have to be bloodthirsty monsters. They can just hold the victims for ransom, or, if that is not expected to be worth the bother, drop them off at some minor nearby planet, perhaps even one with a starport, but that does not have any armed forces that will interfere with the pirate activities.

The only things I can see that would prevent the Pirates from taking the ship would be if onboard automated security might make taking control of the ship too difficult, and so the pirates reach a compromise with the ship crew to just accept the cargo instead of destroying the ship. The other possibility would be if the ship is not capable of jumping to the destination the pirates want to go to next. Even in that case the pirates might just strip anything they can carry from the ship (if they have time) leaving it adrift with many of its systems no longer functional. They could then give the crew the choice of staying with the now derelict ship, or being prisoners. Either would be a gamble.

"Spacing" or otherwise killing crew is something I think most pirates (especially those operating without a foreign government as cover) would be reluctant to do.

Killing sentients upsets the authorities, gets you bad press, and encourages the next victim to fight (what do they have to lose?). If pirates do their best to minimize damage to ships and crew and take (as much as possible) freight, not speculative cargo, the ship's crew has a lowered incentive to resist.
[…]
A pirate who combined both options (if the victim doesn't resist they get the 'nice' treatment, while everyone who does resist is killed) might seem to combine the best of both approaches. However, such a pirate will attract the authorities and needs to move to new pastures after a while. That's probably a good modus operandi for any pirate: scout a new area, make a few quick captures, and then leave and go raid somewhere else.

Now that is very true - though they're probably more difficult to re-sell, whether intact or in the form of spare parts. Both options would require access to a secure dock somewhere with some form of shipyard/repair ability, where the ship could wait for a buyer.

Yes, but if they are planning to salvage and/or sell the prize-ship, they will be limited by the Jump-number of the prize (they have to get it to the safe-port), which for a merchant is usually low-jump.

Reputation also matters. If pirates are stealing ships and killing crews, there's no negotiation. No one will heave to in order to avoid damage, death, and loss. If pirates are only taking cargo, then merchants may be more willing to accede to demands. Why incur millions of Cr in damages for a cargo worth 100's of thousands of credits.

I think piracy that goes as far as prize ships for resale/parts will end badly if it happens in Imperial Space, or anywhere that lays claim to the routes between systems. Those acts would directly flaunt the authority of the Emperor, and become a Navy issue. I don't think anyone wants even a fraction of their undivided attention.

Oh yes indeed. The more I think about it, the riskier trying to capture ships looks (not to mention that'd require a larger group as one would need a competent prize crew on top of the one aboard the pirate's ship).

First, the window for piracy is the jump window. Those arriving at 100D and traveling inward, and those traveling outward.

This is a very small window, all things considered. A matter of hours. Obviously there are exceptions based on jump shadows and such, but much of the travel is within the 100D limit, which is not very big.

Space combat is very expensive. Space ship parts are not cheap, and expensive to repair and replace. This works against pirates. As they say "The authorities can miss over and over, the pirate can only miss once."

There is one other thing to bear in mind...Pirates need to trade too. If you have just lifted 60,000 tons of iron ore, it is valueless if you can't pass it to someone with a smelter - unless you translate it to value by threatening just dropping it on the smelter (from orbit) if they don't pay.

Why do pirates even bother with the cargo? Just steal the starship, pirates can steal a starship and then do legitimate business with it, since the starship is stolen, they don't have to pay down its cost, they can under bid their competitor and make an enormous profit just hauling goods and passengers here and there. If you want a good deal on a starship, but one from a space pirate, sometimes they want fast cash and will low ball the price to get rid of a hot starship and walk away with money in the bank.

Because, to borrow from the rules for skipping:
Throw 12+ to determine that a commercial ship is of this type, ie stolen by pirates or hijackers. Ships which have been stolen by pirates or hijackers are subject to repossession attempts if detected by the authorities. Such attempts may range from the formal service of papers through legal injunctions to armed boarding parties. On each world landing, throw 12+ to avoid a repossession attempt; apply a DM of +I per 5 parsecs distance from the ship's home planet, to a maximum of +9. If the ship has called on the same world twice within the last two months, apply a DM of -2. If a scout base or naval base is present in the system apply a further DM of -2 per base type.

1. Posing as a customs ship ... check.
2. "Play nice" and no one needs to get hurt ... check.
3. Ransom the ship back to its captain rather than stealing it ... check.
4. Knowing through a back channel with an official at the starport that the Far Trader "just got a fat payday" from selling a speculative cargo for over MCr 6 and could therefore afford a steep ransom demand ... check and check.
5. Likelihood of some of that ransom money being kicked back to that starport official for the hot tip ... check.

Per the publicly available Library Data on the Choleosti system (and I quote, again, with emphasis added) ... "It is often thought of as a pirates haven, but receives enough business from the subsector navy to keep the pirates polite."

In other words, a legitimate Patrol Cruiser in Choleosti space is not an impossibility, because the subsector navy will occasionally patrol there ... but those assets would have to be sent in from outside the system (most likely Frenzie, the nearest navy base) to reduce the risk of piracy in the Choleosti system as a subsector navy patrol responsibility. However, such a starship would not be a "local" system defense asset paid for and maintained by the local economy, it would have to be a subsector navy asset (paid for mainly by taxes from Vilis due to high population there).

In other words, these "discount pirates" partially screwed up with their identification.
If they had identified themselves as subsector navy, rather than system defense, on an intercept course to conduct a customs inspection, there would have been no reason to suspect they were anything other than what they seemed. However ... doing so when you AREN'T subsector navy carries its own penalties and risks, which apparently these "discount pirates" were not willing to take (or borrow against).



Last thing I'm going to say on this topic is that if the notion of "polite" piracy offends your sensibilities, then you really need Mouretsu Pirates on your bucket list.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Spinward Flow]

AYE.

As a Referee, the important thing to remember is that pirates, when encountered, are operating in a particular context within the setting (just like the Players are operating with a particular context within the setting). This means that the motivations, actions, objectives and tolerance for opposition and resistance are all on individual sliding scales ... because cookie cutter pirates ARE BAD PIRATES.



And in honor of that wonderful context quote from Condottiere, allow me to share my favorite pirate joke which was only told to me a couple of years ago which I had never heard before in my life.

Q (asked in a pirate accent): What's a pirate's favorite letter?

A (smug knowing): ARRRR!

Q (mocking pirate accent): NAY! For REAL pirates love the SEA!

If you don't immediately get the joke, just say it out loud. You'll get it. :rofl:

 

[whartung]

You're completely discounting the FACT that a stolen starship is a liability to a pirate until it is liquidated for cash or otherwise "hacked" and altered to change its identity. Even with a "five finger discount" on acquisition, it still costs money to operate and maintain a starship, meaning it needs supplies and support to remain in working condition. My point being that keeping the Far Trader would be an encumbrance to the pirates, especially in the region of space where the starship was captured.

It's worth MILLIONS OF CREDITS, even grossly discounted. Or it's worth nothing (depending on your TU is structured). If it's nothing, if the parts are worth nothing: computers, drives, plants, then there's no motivation to keep the ship. Just like bandits don't take the stagecoach, they just take the watches and wallets of the passengers.

But stagecoaches aren't potentially worth MILLIONS OF CREDITS, so "solving the problem of what to do with the stagecoach" is a non-issue. But with a starship, it comes up. And, over time, the problem will have a routine solution (leave it be, steal it away and sell it or chop it up). The point being there is a large amount of money here just floating in space. The cargos are potentially peanuts compared to the ship. The cargo is potentially more fungible than the ship. But when you're talking millions of credits, folks are willing to put a bit of work it to get it.

If the pirates are polite and simply take cargos, and leave the ship and people unharmed, then compliance will be high. The cost of damage is higher than the value of the cargo. They can make an educated guess about whether to try and run, but it doesn't take much to tip the scales to just shutting down and delivering the goods.

Because the alternative is utter financial ruin for the owner and/or death.

When folks hold up liquor stores, they don't take the store, or the inventory.