CT Only: Spinward Flex Courier

[Spinward Flow]

A ransom is "portable" ... a starship is not.
A ransom is a "liquid asset" ... a starship is not.

Yes, the starship, in its entirety, may have more intrinsic value to it (almost MCr 60 for the whole thing, bought new from the shipyard) ... but until you sell, chop shop or otherwise "liquidate" that asset for credits, you've got a starship ... not currency.

As quoted above...

If you have just lifted 60,000 tons of iron ore, it is valueless if you can't pass it to someone with a smelter

All that iron ore may hold a lot of value (for example) ... but until you sell it for something you can use (currency) it's just ... iron ore. It may be "worth a lot" to the right buyer, but that buyer isn't "right here, right now" and you have to go to the trouble of transporting all of that iron ore somewhere that it can be exchanged for something of more value to you (in this case, currency) than the iron ore itself. Until that transaction takes place, possession of the iron ore is both an encumbrance (there's a lot of it) and a liability (have to protect it so someone else doesn't take it from you).

And, just as an aside ... LBB2.81 p47 shows Steel as a commodity is worth Cr 500 per ton. If you assume Iron Ore is worth (2D=2) 40% of that price or Cr 200 per ton, then 60,000 tons of iron ore has a market price of MCr 12.

So if someone were to offer you MCr 12 in cash, or 60,000 tons of iron ore ... which is the more "valuable" option for you to take (since they both have the same intrinsic value)?

Duh ... you take the cash, unless if you're in the market for iron ore AND have a smelter who will pay you more than MCr 12 to take all that iron ore off your hands.

Now take the same scenario and change the prices.
Would you take MCr 1.2 in cash ... or 60,000 tons of iron ore?

Again ... most people would take the cash ... unless they have a way to convert all of that bulk iron ore into cash by some other means. Yes, a MCr 1.2 immediate cash payout is a lot less "valuable" than the intrinsic value of 60,000 tons of iron ore ... but if you don't have an easy/fast/secure/reliable way to get your money's worth out of all of that iron ore, the MCr 1.2 in quick cash is the better pick (and also, way more portable!).

The same type of thinking and mental calculus applies to taking starships as prizes. Yes, the starship has "intrinsic value" to it, but it's not a liquid asset like currency is. You can't "pay your crew" with 1 ton of starship, for example.

And until you can sell, chop shop, liquidate or otherwise "dispose" of a starship to get the value out it ... all of that value is bound up in that starship in a way that can't be used for other purposes the way that currency can.

Which is a long winded way of saying that even if a starship has an intrinsic value of MCr 60 if it were to be sold at market price, depending on the circumstances, a ransom of MCr 6 may wind up being "better value in money" for a pirate than stealing the entire ship. MCr 6 is far more portable than a 200 ton starship is, and it's more immediately useful and usable than a payout that could take weeks (or a month or few) to realize.



Or to put it another way ... the bird in the hand is safer than the one overhead.

 

[Condottiere]

You could load malware onto the ship's computer that cripples it, than demand a cryptocurrency transfer for the password.

 

[Spinward Flow]

You could load malware onto the ship's computer that cripples it, than demand a cryptocurrency transfer for the password.

 

[kilemall]

A ship has all those lovely drives in them, parting them out like a starship chop shop that supports backwater illicit maintenance/replacement logistical streams would be of value, although I would make it out to be 10-25% value at most.


The other value is as 'means of production'. To use the iron ore metaphor, the ship is the 'smelter', a way of making money. Even if it only lasts 6 months, a ship with no mortgage payments is worth a few million in profits potentially, particularly in the speculation, 'small packet trade' or looting/salvage or pirating if possible.


No it's not as convertible as cash, but with the right situation, mindset and acumen, it can be worth more.

 

[Silverhawk]

Another possibility came to mind. We tend to think of the pirates ransoming the crew and passengers. But why not also ransom the ship.

All you need is a place to keep the ship out of sight. A way to send a message to the owner with a Cr amount.

Saves the effort of moving it to a system where you can sell it.
Saves the effort of disassembling it for parts.

Still gets you liquid assets for the effort you did put in.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Another possibility came to mind. We tend to think of the pirates ransoming the crew and passengers. But why not also ransom the ship.

Already ahead of you.

The pirates also demand a ransom of (1D=6) MCr 6 to return control of the Far Trader to the captain.
{snippity}
With no options in a 3 vs 8 fight and at a severe disadvantage, the Far Trader captain reluctantly agrees to pay the ransom.

 

[whartung]

A ransom is "portable" ... a starship is not.
A ransom is a "liquid asset" ... a starship is not.

Yes, the starship, in its entirety, may have more intrinsic value to it (almost MCr 60 for the whole thing, bought new from the shipyard) ... but until you sell, chop shop or otherwise "liquidate" that asset for credits, you've got a starship ... not currency.

Me thinks you're missing the fundamental point here.

If you have someone running around smashing windows and taking car stereos, he's doing it likely because he's alone and has a fence standing by to take the goods and convert it to cash. Taking the car is not a solo enterprise. Sure, the car can be lifted by an individual, but you need the infrastructure to dispose of it.

Even if you wanted to strip the car in the street, you want at least another person to speed up the process. 4 guys can strip a car pretty fast and toss the bits in a van. One guy, not so much.

Now look at it from another point of view.

You have a guy running around smashing windows and stealing car stereos.

While he's doing that, he sees what he's leaving behind. The stuff that he COULD take if he had the team and the tools. And he'll look at the payback for those pieces and decide whether to expand his criminal enterprise into a partnership.

Not being a professional car thief, I can only imagine the back end of a theft ring, especially a car theft ring. Moving the car, selling it, shipping it out of the country, chopping it up in place. And I can only imagine the real rewards for the operator of these kinds of activities. Sure, a new Mercedes cost $50K, a lot of money. But how much really can someone who steals the care really get before they hand it off to the middlemen. $1000? $5000? 5000 seems like a lot, but I don't know.

Some people may try to expand and get in to that $1-5000 range of crime. Of course the penalties start adding up if they're caught. Stealing stereos is one thing, but cars is something else.

The point there is that while they may take a bluebird in their lap if a buddy says "Help me heist this car and I'll give you $500" vs building up the organization to support this activity. There's reward, but we're only talking a few thousand dollars.

Now.

Starships are several orders of magnitude more valuable, but the work to pull it off is not. The scale of the potential reward to the cost of operations is off the charts. IF you have a starship already (but pirate by default "have a starship already", they've figured that part out).

So, with all that at stake, just leaving millions of credits setting there "at the side of the road" while rifling through passengers wallets and stealing a container of VCRs. With that kind of reward, it's worth the time and investment to be able to properly profit from it -- and profit big.

The starship IS the prize, not the cargo.

MILLIONS OF CREDITS book value of merchandise. That's life changing money. That's "one and done" money. 5000 for a car doesn't dramatically change a lifestyle. Millions of credits in your pocket and you're talking to brokers about T-bills and condos in Boca Raton. Tuition for the kids, a house for mom.

5000 is so little may as well spend it at the track.

To quote from Heat:

Michael Cheritto: I'll roll with you Neil whatever

Neil McCauley: No not on this one, on this one you're on your own

Michael Cheritto: You figure this is the best thing to do?

Neil McCauley: I got plans I'm going away after this for me the reward is worth the stretch but Elaine takes good care of you, you got plenty put away, T-Bonds real estate if I were you I would be smart, I'd cut loose of this.

And thats the thing. This looks to be very, very lucrative. The "universe" has to have a lot of rules to make it not lucrative.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Me thinks you're missing the fundamental point here.

Really ...

Things can have value placed on them which are completely useless as currency (unless we're talking barter system).

If I've got a financial securities bond for Cr 100,000 then that bond is worth Cr 100,000 at a financial institution (like say, a bank), but it's unlikely I could use it to make purchases or pay bills with it (such as life support and salaries) because that bond is not currency. It's a repository of value, but you can't "spend" it like you can currency (or cash, if you prefer). The value is locked up in the item.

Same deal with a starship.
The starship may have a construction value associated with it, but you can't pay a crew in "shares of the tonnage" to pay them in pieces of that value. The starship isn't currency ... it's a commodity. The starship can be exchanged for currency, at the right "location" to the right "people" ... but you can't trade the license plate for a loaf of bread (for example), even if getting the license plate costs more than the loaf of bread.

I can't believe I have to keep pointing this out so many times, but a starship is not a fungible financial asset. IN THEORY you can exchange one for a pile of cash ... but there are a LOT of hoops you'll need to jump through before that can happen, many of them logistical (and tedious and potentially risky).

There's a reason why credits are a currency and starships are not.
Starships can "hold value" ... but getting that value "out" of them into the form of currency is a non-trivial matter, especially if you've stolen the starship (better take it somewhere that won't care about it having been stolen). Is the place where you can do that going to be right at the scene of the crime?

There's a reason why people don't pay their grocery bills with computer parts. Sure, the computer parts may be worth "more" than the price of the groceries ... but the grocer is going to want currency, not to have to barter for your computer parts.

Same deal applies with starships ... just at a different magnitude of valuation.

Good day, sir. mega:

 

[Condottiere]

1. Fusion reactors are easy to dispose off; everyone needs power, dirtside or in space.

2. Manoeuvre drives and rockets tend to be specific to certain spaceship classes, though alphabetizing them does make it easier to integrate them across a wide range of spacecraft.

3. Scrap value of hulls, though you can strip out the electronics and artificial gravity plating, presumably twenty five kilostarbux per tonne of volume.

4. Bridge is a little hard to quantity, since my current theory is that most of the cost in Mongoose Second is the electronics per tonne spread out in the hull.

5. Jump drive as whole is hard to get rid off, and likely the most easy to trace; on the other hand, strip out individual components like any crystals, controls and capacitors.

6. Store of value that if a number of reasons you can't quite liquidate - most likely, you look at interest rates and tax policy, and borrow what you need against the security of those assets; as I understand billionaire and megacorporation finances, you keep the assets, which may be increasing in value, and you can write off the interest rates in your taxes.

7. You could try to place your starship into a non profit charitable foundation, of which you happen to be the chief executive officer.

 

[whartung]

I can't believe I have to keep pointing this out so many times, but a starship is not a fungible financial asset. IN THEORY you can exchange one for a pile of cash ... but there are a LOT of hoops you'll need to jump through before that can happen, many of them logistical (and tedious and potentially risky).

The point is that the value of the ship is high enough (MILLIONS OF CREDITS) that it's worthwhile to jump through those hoops and take those risks.

Every time you leave the MILLIONS OF CREDITS sitting on the table after an operation, it's likely worth your while, if you want to continue in this line of work, to figure out what hoops, how high to jump, and how to mitigate those risks to convert the potential of the starship in to fat stacks of cash.

We did an adventure once were we were supposed to try and penetrate some well guarded asteroid. If we succeeded, we'd get paid 10,000Cr.

One of the players essentially hijacked the encounter. We ended up pooling our mustering out cash, buying up tons of solar powered scientific calculators, and selling that at a disgusting profit to the TL 5 rubes on the main world this asteroid was in.

We made a LOT of money. Heaps of it. To the point when the referee was asking if we were going to assault the asteroid, we honestly responded "For 10,000Cr? Are you kidding?"

Obviously the ref should not have let us take over his mission. But the point remains.

The major driver for the CHARACTERS was to get the cash money from the operation, and live to fight another day. Well, we found a much safer, and more lucrative way to get money. So we did, and in the span of a few weeks we were "fabulously" wealthy and could put the dangerous, mercenary adventures behind us.

This is the kind of money raiders are leaving behind if they can not exploit converting the star ship in to cash. The A drives of a small ship, jump, PPlant and MDrive have TWENTY TWO MILLION credits book value. 10% is over 2 MILLION credits. Just the drives, not even everything else. Anyone looking to repair or buy a ship, saving a few MILLION CREDITS is something folks are motivated to do. To us, it's a spreadsheet. To the boots on the ground, we're talking real money.

You can go through 3-4 layers of middle men, each skimming TWO MILLION credits off the top and sell the drives for 50% book value, saving someone TEN MILLION credits.

If folks are willing to jump out of a starship, and assault an asteroid for 10,000Cr, risking bodily injury and death. What are they willing to do for 2 MILLION credits?

It's a big payday, everyone in the loop stand to make money -- a lot of money (directly through the transaction, or saving not paying it out in the first place).

So, there needs to be some real, tangible reasons why this is not happening.

 

[Fovean]

So, there needs to be some real, tangible reasons why this is not happening.

You make some great points and, for those scallywags that haven’t obtained Oceans 11 levels of of scheming, small craft - also worth millions a pop, as kilemall has pointed out in the past. One imagines they’re so ubiquitous it’s easier to unload the hot ones.

As far as why isn’t this happening, I’ve seen discussions of molecular etching of serial numbers etc in hulls and components, ostensibly too complicated and expensive to mitigate. But presumably they just “file those off” with some molecular handwavery. Yeah, we know it’s stolen, don’t care, just don’t let it get traced back to where it came from.

Don’t worry about the transponder, The Traveller Adventure gives us a spoofing transponder as a necessary part of the action. So that’s easy.

The Navy? Canonically stretched thin and can’t be everywhere at once… back in the early CT days you could probably find an Imperial Naval officer willing to look the other way (I do miss the days of the Dark Imperium )

Chop shops don’t exist? What about the 5000 dton mining platform from Beltstrike? I’ll bet those guys could do it and would love to do it. A containerized M-Drive could be shuffled into a shipment of Processed Ores and sent wherever you like.

Yeah, I’m with whartung on this one - at a certain point it doesn’t make sense leaving the ship behind…

 

[Spinward Flow]

{sigh}

This is the kind of money raiders are leaving behind if they can not exploit converting the star ship in to cash. The A drives of a small ship, jump, PPlant and MDrive have TWENTY TWO MILLION credits book value. 10% is over 2 MILLION credits. Just the drives, not even everything else. Anyone looking to repair or buy a ship, saving a few MILLION CREDITS is something folks are motivated to do. To us, it's a spreadsheet. To the boots on the ground, we're talking real money.

The pirates were able to demand (and get!) SIX MILLION CREDITS without having to go to the hassle of actually stealing the Far Trader.

Not two.
SIX. MILLION. CREDITS!

That's 10% of the value of the entire ship ... without a fight and without (too much of) a fuss. And they didn't have to WAIT for that payout either, the transfer was made before the Patrol Cruiser undocked.

So, there needs to be some real, tangible reasons why this is not happening.

You're trying to make the claim that the pirates ought to be able to settle for 10% of the full value of the starship if they take it out of system and liquidate the asset so as to convert it into cash. 10% of the full value of the starship would make it worth their while to steal the ship and jump through all those hoops and run all that risk to get a 10% profit out of the full value after everyone else in the black market chain takes their cut.

That's your argument. 10% is enough of a motivation to steal the ship.

So instead, the Far Trader captain paid the 10% ransom and got their ship back IMMEDIATELY and the pirates got paid IMMEDIATELY.

Which part of this mental calculus escapes your comprehension?

You can either take MCr 6 *NOW* ... in cash ... or you can get paid MCr 6 (maybe) a month from now or later while running additional risks in the meantime.

Everything you're advocating for says you would rather take the risk for a larger payout than 10% or possibly "lose it all" if the authorities (or a competitor) catches up to you on the way to "market" to sell the Far Trader ... because until you dispose of it, you have to protect your "investment" in it (lest someone else steal from you what you have rightfully stolen).

Or you could take the immediate "sure thing" ransom payout right now for basically the same 10% return.

A bird in the hand is safer than the one overhead.

I can't make the case any clearer than that ... and I'm not even including all of the added risk of drawing attention from the navy to pirate activity due to the act of stealing an entire starship. If you get a fat payout from stealing a starship and then lose it all because the navy catches you thanks to the trail you left behind you ... was that REALLY a good decision you made, in the long run?

Know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
And know when to run

Pirates are not fanatics or zealots.
At their core, they are (usually) just mercenaries.
In other words, if they aren't out for blood ... they can be bought off (usually).

As the old saying goes ... every man has his price ... especially merchants AND pirates both. Go figure, eh?

 

[whartung]

That's your argument. 10% is enough of a motivation to steal the ship.

No, the point is that we're talking about an enterprise, a dangerous enterprise, that nets MILLIONS OF CREDITS and that, for some insane reason, folks continue to work it.

Fine, they got 6M credits. They ransomed the ship, the captain forked over 6M credits to get away scot free.

So.

Here's what we have.

We have a captain with 6M credits in the bank that he's seems comfortable handing over to the pirates. We've already seen your examples of these ships making MILLIONS of credits in a couple of months of work.

If the captain has 6M credits stuffed in a bank, IN CASH, not tied up in his home, in his ship, in other tangible, but not liquid assets -- but CASH. Why is this person still "working"? Specifically, why is he working something where folks get ransomed, shot out of the sky, risking misjumps, etc.? Open up a coffee shop for crying out loud if they want to keep busy.

"WTH are you doing out there anymore, honey? Come home!" -- The Wife

"Yea, Daddy!" -- The Kids.

Traveller uses "1980" dollars. 6M in 1980 "dollars" is almost 20M today. Just to give some perspective.

Why. Is. This. Guy. Not. Playing. Tennis. On. A. Beach. With. His. Family?

He and his family, are "set for life". Already. In todays "dollars", could be earning $1-2M per year just on interest. Money working for money. Boca Raton, here we come!

Why are the pirates netting such huge amounts and not doing one and done? Is the cartel backing them going to kill their families? Does all of the money get shoved up stream? "It takes a lot to run a pirate organization". Why the heck are they pirating anyway when, demonstrably, they can run trade for 6 months, legally, and be back on that beach?

The amount of money involved here is STAGGERING.

I mean, I've watched "Deadliest Catch", which is probably the most in depth layman are going to get on operations of sea going traders. And everyone marvels how the crew can make 10's of thousands of dollars for a few weeks work. But it's only a few weeks, it's not all year. But even then, those boat owners are not raking in millions of dollars a season in net profit. Comfortable life at home? Sure. 5 year old sports car in the garage? Yea. Scrooge McDuck stacks of bouillon? No. Lighting cigars with $100 bills? No. (Well, maybe once...just cuz.)

If you have enterprises with this much profit, you have eager people willing to do it for LESS. "Yea, gee, I'll do that for 5MCr!", and the race to the bottom and efficiency begins.

You also have the problem of VAST, ENTRENCHED corruption with that much money floating around. All of those controls are managed by people who are NOT getting millions of credits. Who have to live on "just" 5000Cr a month salary. Pay for their house. Save for retirement. Put their kids through school. 10,000Cr in graft means something. Has impact. And is nothing to someone making millions of credits. In fact, as I understand it, a lot of cartel money is spent on corruption like services.

So, simply put, there's too much free cash going on here. The margins are too high. Way, way, way too high.

 

[Condottiere]

1. My exchange ratio is one to five.

2. Also, starships are actually dirt cheap.

 

[Spinward Flow]

No, the point is that we're talking about an enterprise, a dangerous enterprise, that nets MILLIONS OF CREDITS and that, for some insane reason, folks continue to work it.

Seriously ...? o:

We have a captain with 6M credits in the bank that he's seems comfortable handing over to the pirates.

Was there a REASON to do that?
Oh yes ... the Far Trader had been captured by pirates, and if the captain wanted the Far Trader back (and for the merchant line to keep their subsidy) ... the captain needed to pay the ransom.

This isn't that difficult to understand.
Even drama students prone to asking "what's my motivation?" can figure this one out.

If the captain has 6M credits stuffed in a bank, IN CASH, not tied up in his home, in his ship, in other tangible, but not liquid assets -- but CASH. Why is this person still "working"? Specifically, why is he working something where folks get ransomed, shot out of the sky, risking misjumps, etc.? Open up a coffee shop for crying out loud if they want to keep busy.

Now you're just being deliberately and willfully obtuse just for the sake of putting your misunderstanding of the situation on parade.

To save you the trouble of going back a few pages to find the relevant information that you're deliberately overlooking ... here it is, again ... with the important points highlighted in bold so as to make it harder to miss them YET AGAIN.
(honestly, sometimes I wonder why I bother...)

Owing to the fact that Choleosti is a moon with such a low population (code: 1) and an early interstellar tech level (TL=9), it takes only a few hours for the captain to realize that there is only a single minor cargo of 20 tons that has been sitting at the starport (for weeks already)

The captain also puts out the word of the speculative cargo of 30 tons of computer parts in the Far Trader's cargo hold, asking if there are any interested buyers and within 1 hour the starport chief operations officer (1 of the 13 permanent residents on the moon) has made an above market price offer for the computer parts of MCr 6.75 in order to keep the starport's automated services and facilities operational. As a courtesy to the starport's COO, the captain accepts the offer and declines to entertain any other offers. The speculative cargo of computer parts is unloaded by 16h 146-1105.

Speculative Cargo sale: MCr 6.75 (not subject to subsidy)​

During this ascent away from Choleosti (2D6=10) a 400-ton Patrol Cruiser approaching on an intercept vector makes contact with the Far Trader 5 hours into the transit.

The pirates also demand a ransom of (1D=6) MCr 6 to return control of the Far Trader to the captain. The Far Trader captain strongly suspects that these pirates are fully aware of the sale of computer parts to the Choleosti starport COO (and the price paid for those computer parts) less than 1 day ago, meaning there might be some back channel conspiracy involved, but suspicions are not proof. With no options in a 3 vs 8 fight and at a severe disadvantage, the Far Trader captain reluctantly agrees to pay the ransom.

So what clues do we have?

1. A single cargo of 20 tons has been sitting at the starport for weeks already, waiting for a starship bound for Margesi.
2. The pirates intercepted the Far Trader less than 1 day after the Far Trader got a nice payday from selling a speculative cargo of computer parts to the starport, which has a crew of up to 13 people keeping the starport in operation.
3. The payout of MCr 6.75 for those computer parts no doubt represents a serious "loss of currency" from the the local economy of Cholesti Station (the starport) and Choleosti (the moon of Monoda) ... which if it could be "retrieved" somehow ... means the starport gets the computer parts it needed and doesn't have to lose quite as much money in the transaction.
4. *IF* (so speculation warning!!) ... IF ... someone at the starport (could be anyone, really, not just the COO the computer parts sale was made to) was in cahoots with a pirate base on another moon of Monoda, a message could have been sent to the pirates with intel on the Far Trader (and Spinward Flex Courier in the alternate universe) for departure and course heading, along with the info about the fact that the Far Trader just got a nice fat MCr 6+ for selling those computer parts ... meaning the captain is flush with cash "right now" and if the pirates capture the ship and demand a ransom to return the Far Trader, not all of that currency needs to leave the Choleosti system (and if it doesn't leave the system then it stays "inside" the local system economy).
5. So *IF* there was a conspiracy to double cross the Far Trader captain after buying the computer parts (worth MCr 4.5 at 100% market price) and the pirates are able to recover MCr 6 of the MCr 6.75 that was paid for those computer parts ... that means the starport only winds up needing to pay out Cr 750,000 for 30 tons of computer parts (an absolute STEAL!), minus whatever "cut" needs to be paid to the pirates for recovering the MONEY that was paid out to buy those computer parts in the first place from the Far Trader.
6. Even at a 50/50 split, (so MCr 3 to the pirates and MCr 3 to the starport agent from the ransom), the starport still winds up needing to pay a net MCr 3.75 for 30 tons of computer parts that they needed (normal 100% is MCr 4.5 for 30 tons, so that's a bargain for the starport) and the pirates get their cut of MCr 3 for an easy job that takes them less than a day's work to complete and are able to make a clean getaway with no serious crimes sticking to them for having made a pretty minimal effort. All of which means, this cozy little arrangement can be sustained and exploited again in the future, meaning more payouts and piracy opportunities.
7. Could the 20 ton cargo that had been sitting at the starport for weeks actually be a "back channel" way for co-conspirators at the starport to get supplies to the pirates (via confiscation) without needing the pirates to land at the starport to collect them?

The (discount) pirates DIDN'T NEED THE STARSHIP ... they needed the CASH ... now, TODAY ... and the 20 tons of cargo (the contents of which are NEVER SPECIFIED you'll notice) that was cleverly arranged to be inside the hold of the Far Trader for the pirates to confiscate and make off with (forcing a refund of the transport costs into the bargain!).
It's so hard to find good help these days ...

Why. Is. This. Guy. Not. Playing. Tennis. On. A. Beach. With. His. Family?

Two Words.
Merchant Prince

And if those two words aren't enough for you ... here's one more.
CONTRACT

If comprehension continues to elude you, please seek the assistance of the nearest financial/medical professional.

Why are the pirates netting such huge amounts and not doing one and done? Is the cartel backing them going to kill their families? Does all of the money get shoved up stream? "It takes a lot to run a pirate organization". Why the heck are they pirating anyway when, demonstrably, they can run trade for 6 months, legally, and be back on that beach?

And now you're just right back into the rut of being deliberately and militantly obtuse again.
I've already handed you the answers. I even put them on a silver platter for you.
If you keep dropping the answers on the floor and then wondering where the answers went ... that's not my problem, that's on you.

The amount of money involved here is STAGGERING.

The "quantity" of money involved is honestly less of an issue than you might think. The important factor to consider is the flow rate. What are the percentages? What is the profit margin? How fast does the profit margin rack up? Can you "keep" those profits once you've made them?

There's a reason I keep referring to the "bean counters" at the Accounting Department of a merchant line (anything from megacorporation to fledgling line trying to break into the market), and the interests of the subsidizing government involved (in this case, Vilis/Vilis on this route) which takes a 50% rake of gross receipts.

If you have enterprises with this much profit, you have eager people willing to do it for LESS. "Yea, gee, I'll do that for 5MCr!", and the race to the bottom and efficiency begins.

So let's see your starship design that can do the job better than a Far Trader on this route. C'mon ... chop chop!

You also have the problem of VAST, ENTRENCHED corruption with that much money floating around.

GLOBAL economies tend to be measured in quantities of money that get kind of hard to fathom.
Now interface those global economies together across multiple star systems.

If you're trying to contend that "there's too much money!" involved, I've got some seriously bad news for you ... that's just the way it is.

All of those controls are managed by people who are NOT getting millions of credits. Who have to live on "just" 5000Cr a month salary. Pay for their house. Save for retirement. Put their kids through school. 10,000Cr in graft means something. Has impact. And is nothing to someone making millions of credits. In fact, as I understand it, a lot of cartel money is spent on corruption like services.

So, simply put, there's too much free cash going on here. The margins are too high. Way, way, way too high.

So ... pirate the rich?

 

[whartung]

Total net profit from 0h 001-1105 through 22h 154-1105: Cr 13,794,575

That's after ponying up the 6MCr.

Even drama students prone to asking "what's my motivation?" can figure this one out.

Precisely. Once someone has made, NET, the equivalence of $45M in todays dollars. Why is this captain still flying? That is, why is he in the cockpit, taking the risks, bargaining with pirates, risking death every day? If nothing else, why isn't he simply hiring a crew to do it? Why isn't he leveraging his savings to buy more ships and hire more crews. Finding investors? There is a point of "enough money". For the vast array of people. Captains tend to be a conservative lot. The position doesn't bode well for those who are not.

And where are all of the other hungry Captains?

(honestly, sometimes I wonder why I bother...)

Apparently so you can continue to have an outlet for your rude condescension. But, hey, you be you.

The "quantity" of money involved is honestly less of an issue than you might think. The important factor to consider is the flow rate. What are the percentages? What is the profit margin? How fast does the profit margin rack up? Can you "keep" those profits once you've made them?

Why wouldn't he be able to keep the money? It's legally gained, it's in his bank (he just spent 6MCr of it). He can park the ship, go home to his family, give the crew a 100K bonus, and go on his merry way. Unless the government has some sort of absurd forfeiture clause, he can likely afford any premature closing fees. See, he can actually afford lawyers now.

So let's see your starship design that can do the job better than a Far Trader on this route. C'mon ... chop chop!

Has nothing to do with any starship design. It has to do with the market. Markets don't suffer imbalances like this well. Someone will show up and be willing to PAY MORE for the privilege to of doing the work, and/or CHARGE LESS to those paying them. "This guy is profiting 90KCr a DAY doing this work, I'll do it for 80KCr", and present those parties with "better deals", for assorted values of "better".

GLOBAL economies tend to be measured in quantities of money that get kind of hard to fathom.
Now interface those global economies together across multiple star systems.

If you're trying to contend that "there's too much money!" involved, I've got some seriously bad news for you ... that's just the way it is.

Your captain is moving a few dozen tons of freight. He's not tapped in to the "global (galactic) economy". He's a truck driver with hustles on the side. He should be making enough to maybe get a nice bass boat.

Walmart is tapped in to the global economy. They're the second largest employer in the world. Between the US Military and the Chinese Army. The Walton family does this on the thinnest of margins. About 2%. But, as they say, "they make it up in volume". 2% of $340B annually adds up.

Your truck driver is not Walmart.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Why is this captain still flying? That is, why is he in the cockpit, taking the risks, bargaining with pirates, risking death every day? If nothing else, why isn't he simply hiring a crew to do it? Why isn't he leveraging his savings to buy more ships and hire more crews. Finding investors? There is a point of "enough money". For the vast array of people. Captains tend to be a conservative lot. The position doesn't bode well for those who are not.

And where are all of the other hungry Captains?

Why wouldn't he be able to keep the money?

Has nothing to do with any starship design. It has to do with the market. Markets don't suffer imbalances like this well.

Your captain is moving a few dozen tons of freight. He's not tapped in to the "global (galactic) economy". He's a truck driver with hustles on the side.

Speculative cargo, done right, at a profit, is ... Arbitrage.

 

[whartung]

Apparently so you can continue to have an outlet for your rude condescension. But, hey, you be you.

You elided this part, so, just wanted to toss that back in.

Speculative cargo, done right, at a profit, is ... Arbitrage.

Correct, but the profits that you are showing would be called price gouging in other scenarios.

In no market would this a) likely be possible in the first place because b) it's utterly unsustainable, especially for c) commodity goods.

What you have here is essentially a munchkin rule mechanic exploit.

 

[Spinward Flow]

You elided this part, so, just wanted to toss that back in.

Whataboutism (wikipedia link)
If you want to be taken seriously, you need to stop resorting to this tactic.

Correct, but the profits that you are showing would be called price gouging in other scenarios.

In no market would this a) likely be possible in the first place because b) it's utterly unsustainable, especially for c) commodity goods.

What you have here is essentially a munchkin rule mechanic exploit.

I have been open book about how the commodity rules (LBB2.81, p46-48) are being used for speculative cargo.

If you have a problem with how those rules are structured and written, take your concerns up with the editors at GDW responsible for LBB2.81.
If you have a problem with how I've implemented the Rules As Written over the course of this thread, make a case showing the game mechanical error(s) of interpretation of the rules. I'm simply chucking dice and following what the tables say the outcome ought to be in each instance.

As for your objections a) b) and c) ... everything that has happened in the speculative cargo side of things (what can be offered, at what price to buy, if selling what is the offer to sell at) has been in accordance to use of D6 as described by LBB2.81, p46-48.
In other words ... I DIDN'T MAKE THE RULES for how interstellar trade "works" in Traveller. I'm simply implementing the Rules As Written to randomly determine opportunities and then allow the respective captains to make decisions about whether or not to "bite" on those opportunities as they present themselves.

So really, what you're objecting to is the idea that "buy low, sell high" at a profit is somehow (and I quote you for this) "essentially a munchkin rule mechanic exploit."

I'm sorry, whartung ... you just simply fail at commerce (let alone interstellar commerce).

Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it.
Maxim 847

Good day, sir. mega:

 

[Spinward Flow]

Vilis A593943 – A (Industrial) to Saurus D888588 – 7 (Agricultural, Non-industrial)
Vilis world size: 5 (8000km)
100 diameters: 800,000km

Origin (Vilis): Starport A, Size 5, Population 9
Destination (Saurus): Starport D, Size 8, Population 5
DM: +0 (passenger), +0 (cargo), +3 (tech level), +1 first die (speculative cargo)
Passengers: 3D-1D High, 3D Middle, 5D Low
Cargo: 1D+5 Major, 1D+6 Minor, 1D-2 Incidental
Starship Encounters: A 2D

Passengers
3D-1D+3 = 12-4+3 = 11 High
3D+3 = 10+3 = 13 Middle
5D+3 = 17+3 = 20 Low

Cargo
1D+8 = 2+8 = 10 Major (10, 10, 20, 50, 30, 20, 50, 40, 50, 50 ton lots)
1D+9 = 2+9 = 11 Minor (30, 10, 10, 20, 15, 10, 5, 10, 15, 25, 25 ton lots)
1D+1 = 6+1 = 7 Incidental (5, 2, 4, 4, 3, 6, 2 ton lots)

Speculative Cargo (buy)
66 Vacc Suits (TL=10). Cr 400,000 per ton (base price), DM: -3 price modifier. 30 tons
Buy price (2D-3=7-3=4): 70% base price (MCr 8.4)

Speculative Cargo (sell)
53 Computers (TL=6). MCr 10 (base price), DM: +0 price modifier. Broker-4 available at type C starports (LBB7, p41). 5x 1 ton model/1bis (MCr 20 actual total value)
Sell price (2D+0+4=2+4=6): 90% base price (MCr 18 total for 5x model/1bis, MCr 3.6 Broker-4 fee, Cr 400,000 profit not subject to subsidy)



Far Trader

Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Vilis/Vilis occurs at 8h 170-1105, ~800,000km from Vilis.
Transit to Vilis downport is 800,000km, which at 1G takes 299 minutes (5 hours). During this descent to Vilis (2D6=3) there are no starship encounters.

By 13h 170-1105 the Far Trader has touched down in their assigned berth at the starport planetside.
The Far Trader has 4 high passengers, 3 middle passengers, 4 low passengers, 5 tons of speculative cargo (to send to a reputable broker to sell) plus an additional 55 tons of major and minor cargo to unload, all of which requires only 1 hour to complete by 14h 170-1105.
Of the 4 low passengers, their survival (5+ on 2D6) rolls are 8, 11, 5 and 9, resulting in 1 "touch and go" recovery that requires an extra 1 hour to resuscitate successfully. All 4 low passengers survive and are able to disembark by 15h 170-1105.

Berthing Fees: Cr 100 for 6 days​

Fuel state aboard the Far Trader is that 40 tons were used for a single jump-2 and the power plant has been operational for 12 days (4.3 tons), leaving only 5.7 tons of unrefined fuel remaining in the fuel tanks upon arrival at the Vilis starport. The Far Trader captain opts to sell the 5.7 tons of remaining unrefined fuel to the starport and replace it with 50 tons of refined fuel for the jump to Saurus. Draining the internal fuel tanks of 5.7 tons of unrefined fuel takes 1 hour, followed by loading of 50 tons of refined fuel, which also takes 1 hour. This fuel swap will prevent the chance of a misjump en route to Saurus.
Routine 16 hour drive maintenance will be completed while the captain negotiates for cargo and passengers.

Unrefined fuel sale revenue: Cr 570 (5.7 tons)
Refined fuel purchase cost: Cr 25,000 (50 tons)​

Since Vilis is an Industrial world with an average interstellar community level of technology (TL=A) with a type A starport, negotiations for passengers and cargo bound for Saurus takes only 1 day, with the last passengers and cargo scheduled to arrive 4 days later at the starport by late afternoon of 175-1105, ship time (5 days after arrival planetside). On 171-1105 the captain pays out another half-month of crew salaries so the crew can afford to "waste their pay" on Vilis if they are so inclined. All crew are to report fit for duty early afternoon 175-1105, ship time.

Crew Salaries (2 weeks): Cr 6950​

On 170-1105 the Far Trader captain makes arrangements through a highly reputable brokerage firm to sell the five model/1bis computers transported from Margesi. Sadly, the demand for starship computers of this type is decidedly soft at the moment and when auctioned off on 174-1105 the brokerage firm is not able to make a sale at 100% market value, with the highest bid being a mere 90% of market value. After brokerage commission fees (20% of sale price) are paid, the net profit on this speculative cargo (not including shipping) amounts to a mere Cr 400,000. Resolution of the transfers of funds to the Far Trader captain are completed before departure from the Vilis downport on 175-1105.

Speculative Cargo sale: MCr 14.4 (not subject to subsidy)​

While negotiating for cargo and passengers on 171-1105, the brokerage firm handling the auctioning of the model/1bis computers from Margesi notifies the Far Trader captain of a large lot of vacc suits that are being offered for purchase at below market price. The captain takes advantage of the tip and purchases the 30 ton lot of vacc suits for sale on either Saurus, Lanth or if necessary, D'Ganzio (there's no market for vacc suits on Tavonni). Delivery of the speculative cargo to the downport will not delay departure on 175-1107.

The captain books 7 high passengers, 4 low passengers, along with 30 tons of speculative cargo (which the captain has to "buy" cargo space for to balance the books on the subsidy) and a one minor cargo of 25 tons as well as a single incidental cargo of 6 tons.

Life Support cost: Cr 20,000 (10 staterooms), Cr 400 (4 low berths)
Passenger revenue: Cr 70,000 (high), Cr 4000 (low)
Cargo Transport revenue: Cr 61,000 (61 tons)
Speculative Cargo purchase: MCr 8.4 (30 tons)
Speculative Cargo transport cost: Cr 30,000 (30 tons)​

Cargo loading begins at 20h 175-1105 and all passengers are embarked with cargo finished loading aboard the Far Trader in 61 minutes (2 hours) by 22h 175-1105.

After a 1 hour liftoff delay due to congested flight traffic, clearance to liftoff from the Vilis starport is granted at 23h 175-1105, followed by transit to an outbound jump point, a distance of 800,000km, which at 1G takes an additional 299 minutes (5 hours) to complete. During this transit to the jump point (2D6=4) no starship is encountered.

At 4h 176-1105, the Far Trader initiates jump-2 to Saurus/Vilis.
Time spent in jump will be 162 hours.
Breakout from jump at ~100 diameters from Saurus/Vilis will occur at 22h 182-1105.

Total gross costs in Vilis system: Cr 8,482,450
Total gross revenue in Vilis system: Cr 135,570
Remaining revenue after subsidy: Cr 67,785
Speculative Cargo sale: MCr 14.4 (not subject to subsidy)
Net profit in Vilis system: Cr 5,985,335
Total net profit from 0h 001-1105 through 22h 182-1105: Cr 5,811,260​