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Starship design Question: 43678-8b

mike wightman

SOC-14 10K
A couple of questions, if I may.

1.Can we halve the bridge requirements for standard T20 ship designs and then spend the "free space" on anything or are there somethings that can't go into this space.
I know this has been asked a few times, but I would like a definitive answer please ;)

2.Does an airframed hull with a 1bis computer(sub 600t) require a model 2 avionics package if you want to avoid an agility penalty, or is the avionics considered 1bis as well?
 
I believe that the ship would require M-2 to avoid an avionics penalty. Bis computers are only really for upping the Jump number by 1 without breaking the piggybank buying higher model computers (like buying an Acer laptop instead of a G4 Titamium Powerbook)

As for bridge halving, bridge sizes (2%, min 20 tons) are CANON so should never be changed.

Mike
 
As for bridge halving, bridge sizes (2%, min 20 tons) are CANON so should never be changed.
Not in T20*, hence the question
.

*(or in MT, TNE, T4 or GT for that matter ;) )
 
Sigg,

The design rules mention that bridge space also includes stuff like the ship's locker and a bridge fresher, etc. I also include an airlock and a few corridor spaces in bridge tonnage on most of my deskplans.

Shane
 
Hi Shane,
it also mentions Engineering Shops, Vehicle Shop, Laboratories and Sickbays can be included in the 10t slush (to borrow far trader's excellent term for it
).
What I would like to know is if I can install weapon fire control, staterooms, cold berths or even cargo?
Is it an optional rule or is it T20 canon, i.e. can it be used in standard designs :confused: :(
 
Hello Sigg Oddra,

A couple of questions, if I may.

1.Can we halve the bridge requirements for standard T20 ship designs and then spend the "free space" on anything or are there somethings that can't go into this space?


The following is a list of the Bridge requirements from the various design sequences that I have material for. My overall understanding is that the bridge must meet a minimum required size as indicated by the particular set of design rules.

CT: Book 2 p. 13 states "All ships must alloacate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons) to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, sensors and other equipment for proper operation of the ship. Basic controls do not include the ship's computer p. 14.

CT Book 5 requires a minimum of 20 tons or 2% of the ship's tonnage p. 27. Small craft require either a computer or a bridge. If a bridge is installed the minimum is 4 tons or 20% of craft tonnage per p. 34.

THB p. 258 states that a starship requires a minimum of 20 tons, while small craft must allocate a minimum of 4 tons. My understanding of this statement is you cannot have anything less than the minimum required tonnage. Also, Hunter has indicated that the Spacecraft and Starship Design Sequence is a modified version of CT: Book 5.

MT: Referee's Manual Step 8 Bridge p. 81 details how much Bridge space is required by determining the Control Points (CP) needed by the Hull, Power Supply, Locomotion, Communications, Sensors, Weapons, Screens, and Environmental Control. The formula is: CP = (Price/100,000) x TL

TNE: FF&S Step 10 p. 14 details the generl requirements for a bridge. 1 workstation is per electronics, maneuvering, and command crew member as determined by the Life Support step, as well as 1 workstation per master fire director. A bridge is required if Step 9: Crew Requirements returns a result for 2 or more command crew members.

T4 FF&S p. 75 If two or more command crew are called for, the vehicle requires a bridge. Bridge workstations a twice the size of normal workstations, to allow room for easy movement and communications, personnel changeovers, and conferences on the bridge. Electronics, Maneuvering, MFD, and Command Crew all get bridge workstations while engineerings always get normal workstations.

2.Does an airframed hull with a 1bis computer(sub 600t) require a model 2 avionics package if you want to avoid an agility penalty, or is the avionics considered 1bis as well?

From THB p. 263 BIS Computers: A 'bis' version of the Model/1 and Model/2 computer is available. A 'bis' computer acts as one model level higher for determining Jump and Flight Avionics support. To me this means that an Airframe hull can use a Model/1 bis computer without any penalty.

I hope that the above helps with your questions.

Tom Rux


1.Can we halve the bridge requirements for standard T20 ship designs and then spend the "free space" on anything or are there somethings that can't go into this space.
I know this has been asked a few times, but I would like a definitive answer please ;)

2.Does an airframed hull with a 1bis computer(sub 600t) require a model 2 avionics package if you want to avoid an agility penalty, or is the avionics considered 1bis as well? [/QB][/QUOTE]
 
Hi Tom,
the problem in T20 comes from the description of the bridge on page 262, which states:
The tonnage and cost for the bridge of a ship may be allocated among the following areas as per their normal cost and size requirements:
1.Main command and control bridge... A minimum of 10 tons must be allocated...
2. there is no 2????
3-9. a list of components that can be included

So the implication of this is that in ships between 100 and 1000t there are 10t of bridge space that you can designate as airlocks, sick bays etc. Now if a Vehicle Shop can be included, why not a sate room? If a sick bay, why not an autodoc and a couple of low berths?
 
Evening Sigg Odda,

Good catch Sigg Odda the information on THB p. 262 appears to need some clarification. As mentioned earlier the Spacecraft and Starship Design Sequence (SSDS) is based on CT: Book 5. The Custom Sized Hull Minimum Requirements Table at the bottom THB p. 262 reflects the text on the bridge in CT: Book 5 p. 27.

The text on THB seems to be a mixture of the Bridge requirements as per MT/TNE/T4. I am a retired Wet Navy sailor and have been involved with Traveller since about a year after it was released so my next comments are based on that experience. Items 1, 3, 4, and 5 are probably going to be included with the bridge. Items 6 through 9 may be on the same deck, but would not be part the bridge. Wet Navy Ships that are large enough also have a stateroom called the Captain's Sea Cabin located near the bridge. The bridge of most vessels are usually exposed and more easily damaged. So putting a sick bay on the bridge is putting the wounded at risk, which would also be a good reason not to put an autodoc or low berths on the bridge.

A bridge is going to have the main controls for communications, sensors, navigation, and act as a remote station for monitoring engineering.

Of course the above is based on my understanding of the design rules from CT to T20 and my experience in the service. This means I could be and probably are out to lunch ;)

Anyway I hope once again that the above helps out.

Tom Rux


Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Hi Tom,
the problem in T20 comes from the description of the bridge on page 262, which states:
The tonnage and cost for the bridge of a ship may be allocated among the following areas as per their normal cost and size requirements:
1.Main command and control bridge... A minimum of 10 tons must be allocated...
2. there is no 2????
3-9. a list of components that can be included

So the implication of this is that in ships between 100 and 1000t there are 10t of bridge space that you can designate as airlocks, sick bays etc. Now if a Vehicle Shop can be included, why not a sate room? If a sick bay, why not an autodoc and a couple of low berths?
 
Thomas Rux, my understanding of this, was that the tonnage could be used anywhere, so the sickbay could well be way down deep inside the ship. Other than that, yeah, I tend to use my Navy days as reference material as well...
 
If you can hide components in that half bridge tonnage it has big implications for large ship designs, which is one of the resons for asking the question ;)
 
Oh, and as an aside (there goes the thread topic ;) ), how many modern warships have their main CnC on the exposed bridge? Are they not hidden deep within the ship these days, or is that some sort of tactical operations centre?
 
Howdy swab jockey,

My understanding of Sigg Oddra's question was having a sick bay, autodoc, and/or low berths as part of the bridge. Also, if you look at most of the ship designs for Humaniti the bridge is located at the end opposite the maneuver drive and just aft of the avionics area. However, the bridge, as well as most of the other components, can be placed anywhere the designer wants them.

Hopefully, I cleared my comments and if not is blame it on being a bubblehead (slang for submarine sailor).

Tom Rux

Originally posted by Pagan priest:
Thomas Rux, my understanding of this, was that the tonnage could be used anywhere, so the sickbay could well be way down deep inside the ship. Other than that, yeah, I tend to use my Navy days as reference material as well...
 
Hello Sigg Oddra,

The Combat Information Center (CIC) is usually located in an armored area some distance from the bridge on vessels that are large enough. Here is where the similairity between today's submarines and spacecraft breakdown. The Control Room has the Fire Control Equipment and Sonar Room located in the same space. Auxiliaries also have a Combat Information Center usually located aft of the bridge in an armored space. CIC coordinates all information on the space around the ship and assigns threat levels to the various contacts. In combat CIC assigns the weapons to be used on the various targets and when to launch them.

Hope the above helps,
Tom Rux


Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Oh, and as an aside (there goes the thread topic ;) ), how many modern warships have their main CnC on the exposed bridge? Are they not hidden deep within the ship these days, or is that some sort of tactical operations centre?
 
Thanks to you once again Tom. It helps me visualise Traveller warship interiors if I have a real world analogy to work with.
Now can you half the mass of a T20 standard design bridge or is it a rules varient? It's kind of important to T20 ship designers ;)
 
Evening Sigg Oddra,

My take is that a ship that has a bridge must be at least 20 dtons. CT gave a general dexcription of the components. MT, TNE, T4, and T20 allows the designer the freedom to add any amount of detail as long as the components add up to 20 dtons. However, in keeping with the basic Traveller idea of modifying the basic rules to suit your Traveller Universe I'd say make whatever variations are needed that work for you and your gaming group.

Tom Rux


Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Thanks to you once again Tom. It helps me visualise Traveller warship interiors if I have a real world analogy to work with.
Now can you half the mass of a T20 standard design bridge or is it a rules varient? It's kind of important to T20 ship designers ;)
 
Bridges are about control. Bridges are where data is displayed, decisions are made, orders are given, and buttons are pushed. They also consist of all the machinery and processes that carry out these functions.

The historic ship's bridge is about control of the ship itself. Modern CIC's developed because the actions and equipment they control are distant from the ship and ideally do not affect it directly, nor ideally do ship operations affect them. They are in a different world, and only incidentally happen to be on a ship with its own bridge. To make the distinction clearer one may call the classic bridge the ship's bridge and the CIC the combat bridge.

Since bridges are about control one may easily envision quite a few other spaces being extensions of the ship's bridge. Damage control stations, engineering operating stations, alternate control stations, centralized control panels, look-out stations, communications, the quarter deck, pump control stations, the master-at-arms shack, and so on, can all easily be called part of the bridge, as can the captain's day room and other rooms for command activities. Beyond the ship's bridge an admiral may have his own battle bridge, a flight officer may have his own station, a marine boarding party may have its own CIC, an army general may have his own CIC to keep track of ground action, and so on. All meet the general criteria of command and control.

Airlocks, sick bays, cargo, weapons, and other such, simply are not part of any bridge. They meet no command or control criteria. They are extra.
 
Looked at another way the bridge space is about running the ship. The smaller the ship the less consoles you need for the crew and the more space you have left over. To run the ship you need all the things listed as extras such as the first airlock, lockers, engineering and maint areas etc.
Allow 1 dton per crew to the minimum of 10dtons for the actual bridge, above that allocate the tonnage to things you need to run the ship.
A lot of this is going to be subjective but if the ship must have it then it can be included here such as computers. So if you have a 100dton scout add the bridge and shoe-horn in 10dtons of other stuff. On a larger ship with 15 command crew then you have 5dtons spare and on a ship with 100 command crew buy more bridges.
 
Looked at another way the bridge space is about running the ship.
looking at it that way causes the word "bridge" to lose all useful meaning, as it has been expanded to include just about every possible ship component.
 
Well having just participated in a kind of Monster Starport (like Monster Garage* but Mike is much nicer than Jesse ;) ) where the builds were huge (hey, that's the technical term, T20 errata for size) at 15KdT and 50Kdt for my contributions. That gave me "A" bridge of 300dT and 1,000dT respectively! Crews came to 14 O/234 E for the first and 18 O/600 E for the second (each including ship's troops).

Now then, in my deckplanning vision the half of the bridge required for running each ship would allow for 75 and 250 workstations respectively which in both cases is more than enough for the officers and fire directors. Heck, the big one has enough for all the gunners besides so it probably has a fully fledged combat sub-bridge.

That leaves 150dT and 500dT respectively for "other" bridge stuff!

For the submitted designs I just left all that unalloted (and actually ignored) as seems to be the case for the official designs produced so far.

I took any extras (Airlocks, Sickbays, etc.) from the basic volume and paid the going rates.

So what do I think the rest of that volume should be? Corridors of course so the crew can actually get to Engineering from the Bridge without spacing the Cargo or going EVA (that will probably take about half that remaining volume. And then there's all the emergency equipment for fire fighting and rescue, tools and parts for emergency repairs, routine equipment like mops and buckets, etc., etc., all the stuff that should be in the "Ship's Lockers", which will take up what's left. I don't factor a cost for "Ship's Lockers" (beyond the already included KCr5/dT) and just allow that annual maintenance covers restocking it. The tools and parts are enough for 10 routine maintenace checks (as per the rules) or 10 emergency repair attempts, each specific for that ship class. After that you need to restock or start making "improvised" repairs and/or maintenance (at minuses to the check).

-------

*Monster Garage (warning, short sound clip in linked page, turn the speakers down if at work), in case you don't get it where you live or just thought from the title or promo that it wasn't your type of show, is a TV series where each episode Jesse James (outlaw customizer) picks a small team of gearheads and outlines a vehicle makeover (such a mild word for the abuse in store
file_23.gif
) to transform the vehicle into, well, something it should never have been (or depending on your point of view, what it was always meant to be
). The team has a scant week in the garage to complete the build to Jesse's satisfaction or he kills them. Well, no, though they may wish they were dead (and I have no doubt such reality TV is coming soon, and have believed so since Videodrome ). Actually if they fail they just don't get the big chest of Mac tools and Monster gear they hoped for, nor the cool approval of Jesse James.
 
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