Starship design Question: 43678-8b

[far-trader]

For what its worth Hunter is credited as creating a deckplan (presumably an original design) in Epic Adventure 2. We can probably gain some insight into his take on this question from that.

It follows the CT simplicity style of mostly leaving areas defined but void of details, so the referee has some common frame but isn't locked into a picture that may not fit their game.

The area specific to this discussion for the 400dT Corvette is called Bridge on the plans and is a part of the Command Deck. The Bridge is a large 20dT area 9m wide by 10.5m long with a 1dT Locker in the middle of the aft wall (so 21dT total for bridge and locker). The ship's computer (a model/4) is located in the area labled Avionics centered and just forward of the Bridge and is 4dT (6m wide by 3m deep). The listed crew is 11 but not detailed. It looks like Captain, Pilot, Astrogator, 3 Engineers, Medic, and 4 Gunners.

Further component volumes seem to be also mapped at full volume, except the staterooms which are 3dT for the room itself.

I have some minor quibbles* with this design method but it does work and the whole comes out to within the 20% allowable for deckplans. There are about 79dT of access and common space in the deckplan not accounted for in the design volumes (including the 1dT Ship's Locker and the standard 3dT Airlock).

Draw what conclusions you will from this official example.

*but that is another topic and despite that little nit-pick it is on the whole an interesting design and set of deckplans, nicely done Hunter

 

[marvo]

Thanks everyone. I think there is some confusion over the tonnage assigned to the bridge and how it is represented on the deckplans. In my design I allocate the full 20 tons in my calculations, but when drawing the deckplan I only used about 12 tons (24 squares) for the bridge. The other space I used for the airlock, ships locker and some corridor space.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Marvo,

Yep, I was slightly confused and wish to say thank-you for the clarification. I am in complete agreement with the corridor space allocation. Having an airlock as part of the bridge is not one of my personal preferences, but I can see the point. Especially since a majority of deck plans show this type of arrangement. Of course the bridge access hatch on a submarine is located in the overhead of the control room. Based on my experience on 4 submarines and 1 surface ship ship's lockers are not part of the bridge. The Damage Control Locker is usually located on the same deck outside of the bridge.

Originally posted by Marvo:
Thanks everyone. I think there is some confusion over the tonnage assigned to the bridge and how it is represented on the deckplans. In my design I allocate the full 20 tons in my calculations, but when drawing the deckplan I only used about 12 tons (24 squares) for the bridge. The other space I used for the airlock, ships locker and some corridor space.

 

[Drakon]

Does a modern commercial or wet Navy surface combatant require a ship's wheel? No, they could use an airplane type control yoke, similiar to what is used on a submarine, but tradition requires a ship's wheel.

I disagree. A yoke is more control than is available. Surface ships are not supposed, nor designed, to travel in 3D. Just the 2 dimensions on the surface. That means a yoke would be redundant. A ship has a wheel, partly because of tradition, but mostly because that is all it needs. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are many factors that dictate what a control station requires. Ergonomics is usually not a top priority for the military, though the term one size fits all does come to mind . Commericial or private vehicles have different requirements, with ergonomics being more important for a private vessel and somewhere in between for a commercial one.

We may be looking at two different degrees of ergonomics. In the military, your crew still needs to be able to understand the data provided, to interpret all those guages and dials and whatnot, as well as control the ship. It don't have to be comfortable, but if you make it too uncomfortable, or if the much needed switch is simply inaccessible from your position, you got trouble.

Comfort and luxury is far more important in commercial and private ships than the military. Basic ergonomics is something all of them have to be concerned with.

I am reminded of one of the problems at 3 Mile Island. Too much information in an unorganized manner. Ergonomics was not a big issue when the control room for that nuclear plant was built, and they suffered for that.

 

[Drakon]

Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening Marvo,

Yep, I was slightly confused and wish to say thank-you for the clarification. I am in complete agreement with the corridor space allocation. Having an airlock as part of the bridge is not one of my personal preferences, but I can see the point. Especially since a majority of deck plans show this type of arrangement. Of course the bridge access hatch on a submarine is located in the overhead of the control room. Based on my experience on 4 submarines and 1 surface ship ship's lockers are not part of the bridge. The Damage Control Locker is usually located on the same deck outside of the bridge.

Really? What boats were you on?
What exactly is the DC locker on a surface ship? On subs, you have various lockers and storage for the DC gear, but I don't recollect any space or special room just for DC equipment. They kept is spread all over the boat.

 

[mike wightman]

So is the T20 bridge description of half controls/half use how you like (within limits) a varient rule, or is it a standard rule for T20 ship design like the other change from High Guard?

 

[snrdg082102]

Howdy Drakon,

Sorry for the dealy in getting back to you, my father past away on 3/14/04 and I've missed several posts. Anyway I served on the Thomas A. Edison SSBN-610B, Sam Rayburn SSBN-635G, Nathaniel Green SSBN-636G, USS Shark SSN-591, and Simon Lake AS-33.

Good catch Drakon, my post was unclear as to what I was talking about. On the boats I served on the DC lockers, as you pointed out, were stashed in various locations throughtout the boat. Most of the DC kits were stowed either under the deck with a hinged door or in a space called a locker between the frames or false wall. On surface ships DC lockers are spread out like on the boats, but duplicate almost all the equipment need for damage control. The major difference is that they are actual lockers of varying sizes that contain all the damage control gear.

Originally posted by Drakon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Thomas Rux:
Evening Marvo,

Yep, I was slightly confused and wish to say thank-you for the clarification. I am in complete agreement with the corridor space allocation. Having an airlock as part of the bridge is not one of my personal preferences, but I can see the point. Especially since a majority of deck plans show this type of arrangement. Of course the bridge access hatch on a submarine is located in the overhead of the control room. Based on my experience on 4 submarines and 1 surface ship ship's lockers are not part of the bridge. The Damage Control Locker is usually located on the same deck outside of the bridge.

Really? What boats were you on?
What exactly is the DC locker on a surface ship? On subs, you have various lockers and storage for the DC gear, but I don't recollect any space or special room just for DC equipment. They kept is spread all over the boat. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Sigga Oddra,

My interpretation is that the T20 bridge rule is based on CT: Book 5: High Guard rules, which indicates vaguely that all bridge controls are in the same minimum 20 dton location. Any other placement is a variant rule.

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
So is the T20 bridge description of half controls/half use how you like (within limits) a varient rule, or is it a standard rule for T20 ship design like the other change from High Guard?

 

[mike wightman]

Should I have asked this on the errata forum?

Hi Tom,
like you I think the T20 1/2bridge is a varient to the standard design, but:
a)why isn't it clearly labeled as a rules varient like all the other varient starship rules;
b)what if it isn't a varient rule at all but a standard rule that allows you to place the "new" components, such as sickbays and autodocs etc., in the standard design ships without breaking them?

 

[belter]

Sigg-

I read the 20 ton bridge requirement this way:

1. You must allocate a minimum of 20 tons for a bridge on vessels 100 tons or larger, no exceptions.

2. At least 10 tons of your bridge tonnage must be allocated to the actual bridge itself (where Kirk, Spock, and Chekov can be found).

3. Whatever tonnage is left over after #2 above is allocated among the remaining items listed on page 262 that you choose to include in your design.

Hope that helps!

 

[belter]

Expanding on items 3-9 listed as part of the bridge on page 262:

1. There is nothing stating that you may "exchange" an item for something else. Such as a low berth for a sick bay. Low berths are not listed and there is nothing listed in the rules saying they can be exchanged for any item listed other than.

2. At the same time I see no reason why you can't install an auto doc as a sickbay. An autodoc is simply an automated sickbay. If an autovehicle shop is ever created I'm sure you could install that as a vehicle shop.

Isn't it fun scouring back and forth through the rule book hoping to find that one definitive sentence addressing the question you're dying to have answered?!!

 

[Drakon]

Sorry about your loss Tom, but it is good to hear from you again.

I served on the USS George Bancroft (SSBN 643) and the USS Flasher (SSN 613). Spent some time tied up to the Simon Lake too, when it was down in King's Bay.

My last captain had no sense of humor, and seemed downright irritated every time he came aboard. Or actually any time he went aboard any naval ship. We thought it had something to do with the naval tradition of announcing ship commanders by the name of their vessle. Like the captain of the Enterprise, when ever he visits any vessel, or returns to his own, the watch announces over the 1MC (ship wide) "Enterprise, Arriving."

Sometimes the uncool name of a ship can spoil the experience for the Captain.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by belter:
Isn't it fun scouring back and forth through the rule book hoping to find that one definitive sentence addressing the question you're dying to have answered?!!

Yes

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening belter,

Cool idea on how to allocate the bridge. However, my idea of a spacecraft or starship "bridge" is more like the Control Room of a submarine. In the center, called the periscope stand, is where the Captain and Officer of the Deck controls the action. To one side is the fire control station. In front is the steering and diving control station. The Radio shack is forward of the steering and diving station which has a ladder and small passage separating them. To the right of Radio was the Sonar shack, usually forward of the Fire Control stand. On the side opposite is the ballast control panel and in an SSBN is the Missile Compensation panel. Aft of the periscope stand is the Navigation Center.

I know I am forgetting some of the stations, but I have been out for almost 10 years and I am a bit rusty on the details. Anyway a normal underway watch would have at least 17 bodies.

Non-water tight bulkheads and equipment are used to create rooms or shacks. The following is a list of the number of watchstanders in a submarine control as well as I can remember:

Radio 2 or 3.
Sonar 4
Navigation 3
Steering and Diving 2
Fire Control 1
Ballast Control 1
Diving Officer 1
Messenger of the Watch 1, rotates with steering & diving.
Electrician of the Watch 1
Machinist 1

Star Trek bridges do two things: 1. Centralized control stations in to a compact area. and 2. Duplicated control systems. Spock's Science Station accessed all the ship sensor systems, which also had control stations. Scottie's Engineering station had readouts and controls that communicated with the engineering systems, which had a duplicate in the engineering spaces.

Of course the 20 dtons also takes into account access space for watchstanders to get in and out of their chairs or to access equipment for maintenance. MT, TNE, and T4 uses a formula that determines how many stations a bridge requires. Further, each of those systems also identify the type of workstation is required for each watchstander.

Again I like the idea, but prefer not to have a medical station of any sort as part of the bridge. A fresher/head/restroom I can agree with being a part of a bridge. An airlock can be a part of a bridge, but with appropriate measures to prevent someone from blowing the hacthes and taking out the bridge crew. Various storage lockers/safes can be included too.

Well now that I have rambled on for a while, I guess I'll stop for the moment.

Originally posted by belter:
Sigg-

I read the 20 ton bridge requirement this way:

1. You must allocate a minimum of 20 tons for a bridge on vessels 100 tons or larger, no exceptions.

2. At least 10 tons of your bridge tonnage must be allocated to the actual bridge itself (where Kirk, Spock, and Chekov can be found).

3. Whatever tonnage is left over after #2 above is allocated among the remaining items listed on page 262 that you choose to include in your design.

Hope that helps!

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening Drakon,

Thank-you for your kind words concerning my recent loss, I appreciate them.

I pulled in to Kings Bay on either the Green or Rayburn while the Lake was there. Of course I spent more time in New London/Groton and Holy Loch Scotland when I was on the East Coast.

My career started out with the Edison in Pearl/Gaum and San Diego.

Yeah, I would have to agree that some skippers weren't always happy with their commands names. I guess I was fortunate that most of my skippers were pretty good.

Originally posted by Drakon:
Sorry about your loss Tom, but it is good to hear from you again.

I served on the USS George Bancroft (SSBN 643) and the USS Flasher (SSN 613). Spent some time tied up to the Simon Lake too, when it was down in King's Bay.

My last captain had no sense of humor, and seemed downright irritated every time he came aboard. Or actually any time he went aboard any naval ship. We thought it had something to do with the naval tradition of announcing ship commanders by the name of their vessle. Like the captain of the Enterprise, when ever he visits any vessel, or returns to his own, the watch announces over the 1MC (ship wide) "Enterprise, Arriving."

Sometimes the uncool name of a ship can spoil the experience for the Captain.

 

[Drakon]

We always thought it was hilarious and crack up every time we heard "Flasher, Arriving." or "Flasher, departing." Of course, we made sure we were never topside when we did, and it was mostly because we knew how irritated and embarrassed it made him following this ancient naval tradition that he had no hope of changing.

Your numbers for bridge watchstanders look right, but I've been out for 17 years now, and was back aft when I was in. I can add a few more watchstanders for anyone that is interested.

An Aux Electrician, and an Aux Machinist were roving watches up forward. They could and did go anywhere forward of the reactor compartment, take log reading, made sure no water was coming into the boat. Back aft, (in the engineering spaces) had a roving electrician, and the Engineering Watch Supervisor, who was qualified to relieve any other watch station (except the RO) for a head call. All the roving watches did kinda the same stuff, wander around keep an eye out for trouble, take logs.

MAnuvering, the "Engineering Bridge" had 3 watchstanders and an Enginneering Officer of the Watch. Throttleman, Reactor Operator, and Electric Plant Operator. For small starships, a single watchstander in the engineering "bridge" might suffice. But if anything gets damaged, he is going to be quite busy.

Each of the 4 compartments had a watchstander. Mostly they were Machinists, but Machinery Upper Level was a ET billet, as it contained mostly reactor monitoring and controls electronics and the switchboards used to distribute electricity throughout the ship. When I say 4 compartments, actually its 2 levels of 2 compartments, but the idea is the same.

So back aft that is 4 compartment watchstanders, 3 Manuvering space watches, plus officer, and 2 roving watches. Did I miss anyone?

 

[snrdg082102]

Thanks Drakon, I couldn't remember the corret term for the Electrician and Machinist watchstanders as being Aux of the watch. Hey, what to expect from a sonar tech ; . The crew numbers for Engineering sound right to me too, of course being a forward puke and not an after nuke I may not have been counting corretly .

Too bad the skipper didn't have a sense of humor, I mean come on being a flasher can be fun as long as you don't get caught. I mean how many ship's parties, away from the women folks, did the crew get a little wild.

Originally posted by Drakon:
We always thought it was hilarious and crack up every time we heard "Flasher, Arriving." or "Flasher, departing." Of course, we made sure we were never topside when we did, and it was mostly because we knew how irritated and embarrassed it made him following this ancient naval tradition that he had no hope of changing.

Your numbers for bridge watchstanders look right, but I've been out for 17 years now, and was back aft when I was in. I can add a few more watchstanders for anyone that is interested.

An Aux Electrician, and an Aux Machinist were roving watches up forward. They could and did go anywhere forward of the reactor compartment, take log reading, made sure no water was coming into the boat. Back aft, (in the engineering spaces) had a roving electrician, and the Engineering Watch Supervisor, who was qualified to relieve any other watch station (except the RO) for a head call. All the roving watches did kinda the same stuff, wander around keep an eye out for trouble, take logs.

MAnuvering, the "Engineering Bridge" had 3 watchstanders and an Enginneering Officer of the Watch. Throttleman, Reactor Operator, and Electric Plant Operator. For small starships, a single watchstander in the engineering "bridge" might suffice. But if anything gets damaged, he is going to be quite busy.

Each of the 4 compartments had a watchstander. Mostly they were Machinists, but Machinery Upper Level was a ET billet, as it contained mostly reactor monitoring and controls electronics and the switchboards used to distribute electricity throughout the ship. When I say 4 compartments, actually its 2 levels of 2 compartments, but the idea is the same.

So back aft that is 4 compartment watchstanders, 3 Manuvering space watches, plus officer, and 2 roving watches. Did I miss anyone?

 

[Drakon]

"I mean how many ship's parties, away from the women folks, did the crew get a little wild."

None. Never happened. It would be against the rules.

But then admitting to breaking the rules is also against the rules, soo...

Engineering watchstanders were identified by what space they were in. Engine Room Upper Level, Engine Room Lower, Machinery Upper and Machinery Lower.

Boomer have two machinery spaces, and we were Machinery 2 Upper level. Machinery 1 held all the O2 generators, the scrubbers and burners, also the 400 hertz motor generators. (Motor-generators are one of the coolest bits of tech I have ever seen. Very simple concept, very efficient, and flexible.) I don't remember if they had a dedicated watch stander or if the forward rovers dealt with it.

Missile compartment watches, my brain is very fuzzy. I remember at least 2. One on the launch station, monitoring the missiles, and a rover. And Missile Control Center had 1 or 2 watchstanders at all times. (1 I think) The torpedo room also had a watchstander. And I think that covers all the specific watch stations.

The corpsman was NOT a watchstander. And when folks would complain about it, one of the older salts would ask if they had broken their arm or something, if they wanted the Doc right there, or wait till he could get relieved from watch before tending to them. You also carry cooks, (2 or 3 plus non-rates) yeomen, (1 or 2?) and a supply officer. I think he also had an assistant, but it may have been one of the yeoman.

Lets see, 9 watchstanders back aft plus officer. 18 bridge watchstanders, plus 2 rovers. (plus officers) 4 or 5 weapons systems watch standers. Figure 3 section duty, and that is what, 72 men just to man the watches. Add officers and support folks, (doc, cooks, supply and yeoman) its a tight fit.

 

[snrdg082102]

Morning Drakon,

Now you know one of the factors for why I never made Chief, to blasted honest at the wrong times.

Anything to do with the missle security on a boomer requires a minimum of 2 watchstanders. The Missile Control Center, MCC for short, usually had 3, at least on the boats I served on, a supervisor and 2 watchstanders. 1 watchstander was there to qualify the watch station, act as a go for, and alarm clock for the on coming watch. In the Missile Compartment proper 2 is the minimum, with a third one doing the same as in MCC. For maintenance usually 3, 1 to read each step, 1 to do the maintenance, and 1 to make sure the other 2 don't do anything to the missile.

Yep, the stated complement for a boomer crew was 120. Add another at least 12 and you do have a tight fit. Got to go phones ringing.

Originally posted by Drakon:
"I mean how many ship's parties, away from the women folks, did the crew get a little wild."

None. Never happened. It would be against the rules.

But then admitting to breaking the rules is also against the rules, soo...

Engineering watchstanders were identified by what space they were in. Engine Room Upper Level, Engine Room Lower, Machinery Upper and Machinery Lower.

Boomer have two machinery spaces, and we were Machinery 2 Upper level. Machinery 1 held all the O2 generators, the scrubbers and burners, also the 400 hertz motor generators. (Motor-generators are one of the coolest bits of tech I have ever seen. Very simple concept, very efficient, and flexible.) I don't remember if they had a dedicated watch stander or if the forward rovers dealt with it.

Missile compartment watches, my brain is very fuzzy. I remember at least 2. One on the launch station, monitoring the missiles, and a rover. And Missile Control Center had 1 or 2 watchstanders at all times. (1 I think) The torpedo room also had a watchstander. And I think that covers all the specific watch stations.

The corpsman was NOT a watchstander. And when folks would complain about it, one of the older salts would ask if they had broken their arm or something, if they wanted the Doc right there, or wait till he could get relieved from watch before tending to them. You also carry cooks, (2 or 3 plus non-rates) yeomen, (1 or 2?) and a supply officer. I think he also had an assistant, but it may have been one of the yeoman.

Lets see, 9 watchstanders back aft plus officer. 18 bridge watchstanders, plus 2 rovers. (plus officers) 4 or 5 weapons systems watch standers. Figure 3 section duty, and that is what, 72 men just to man the watches. Add officers and support folks, (doc, cooks, supply and yeoman) its a tight fit.

 

[snrdg082102]

Evening all,

Some more detail on the arrangement of space on boomers. Traveller has most watchstanders at workstations that have a lot of room. Boomer workstations where compact to the point of being cramped at battle stations. For example the aisle in sonar from the door to the sonar consoles are between 2 and 4 feet wide. In theory there are 12 enlisted bodies and 1 officer assigned to sonar. During Battle Stations you have a log taker, 2 sonar console operators, 2 analysts, 1 phone talker, 1 supervisor, 2 warm bodies to rotate the other guys off the equipment, and the Sonar Division Officer. This space also includes the majority of sonar equipment. The other 2 sonarmen are located in the Interior Communications (IC) shop and Torpedo Room near the sonar equipment in those spaces to make repairs should something fail due to battle damage.

That reminds me that the IC shop was also located in the Operations Compartment forward of sonar and radio on the boomers I served on. Which means that having a mini-workshop as part of a Traveller's bridge is supported in the Real World.

Grumble, I shot myself in the foot in my earlier posts.