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Starship Scale in Campaigns

Orr (and others): You guys do realize that all of canon is really only relevant for publication, right?


Yes. That's what I'm trying to say.

BardicHeart needed fewer and smaller navies for his campaigns, so he asked for ways to make it happen. People suggested that worlds don't have to build huge navies, other people said worlds have to build large navies because of the some rules which Marc Miller says you shouldn't use in that way, and all the rest of this happened.

BardicHeart can do whatever he wants and telling him he has to do it in a way that Marc Miller says is wrong is silly.
 
Actually I never said I *needed* smaller or fewer ships. I said I was leaning that way because at the time it made more sense to me and seemed more manageable. That and it was obvious the game had started with smaller ships and then switched with HG to much larger ships (which I think has been clearly established to have been in response to market demands due to the popularity of Star Wars at the time). What I am most interested in so far as OTU is getting a clearer picture of how many ships there are, tonnages, and what they are doing and why they are doing it. Just to clarify, I ask about this sort of thing because the better I understand it, the better and more consistent I can present this "universe" to others.

In the last couple of pages there has been a lot of discussion about what planets could afford which has been interesting. I still think that planets in "core" areas would tend to spend only 1% rather than 3%... but this would go up towards the fringes of the Imperium. Again with the exception of balkanized worlds and so forth (i.e. special circumstances). But, from what Rancke and McPerth point out with TCS and Striker (which I have no problem using, I don't see any reason not to use them to help sort things out) even at only 1% of GWP many planets can still afford a LOT. So let's go with that.

Here's a few questions on that premise to kick arround.

Anyone feel up to taking a few examples... pick a planet, any planet, give its location (sector, subsector, etc.), UWP, its military budget and an example of what it could afford (build a paper fleet). If you can find an official example, or a clear example from one of the various Traveller based wargames, even better.

Second question... what are these ships doing? In my previous "theorem" I postulated a lot of 400 dT ships patrolling around like squad cars in space. If they use some of that budget for other types of ships with larger tonnages... what do these ships do? What kind of "routine" duties do they have? Kick it around and let's see what we can come up with.

Third, if planets, even towards the Core have individual fleets of destroyers, cruisers, battleships and strike carriers... why? Is the Imp Navy too small or too unreliable to depend on for defense so that they feel they need these fleets? Is it politically motivated (planet's asserting "planet's rights")? Is a planet in say, Massila, really that worried about invasion, and if so, by whom?

My original assumption, which may be in error, was that worlds in more "protected" areas of the Empire would spend less on defense fleets (especially big ships) because they didn't have to worry about invasion, major attack etc. Instead their focus would be on dealing with piracy, smuggling, etc. Since it appears (here again, correct me if the assumption is wrong) that most pirate ships probably mass under 1,000 dT and virtually none would be over 5,000 dT, then larger numbers of fast patrol craft would be more effective and "controlling" and monitoring traffic in a system. But, if these planets feel the need to have bigger ships, then what reason for that can we extrapolate. That is, are there bigger pirates out there for which that kind of firepower would be needed (and if so, where do they come from)? Is the Imperium a more "warlike" place where feuds between member worlds are possibly settled by small scale shooting wars?

The answers to these sorts of questions help me build a more complete "picture" of the Imperium. While its true I could just decide on my own how I think things are or should be, that has the flaw of all those things I didn't think of (case in point, all the items already pointed out), which players have an almost inevitable knack of asking about. I'd rather bring up these sorts of discussions here and see what you brainiacs come up with. There may not be an "official" explanation, or one might not be possible because different points are in contradiction, but even knowing that gives me useful information in developing a more complete background.

Congrats, you're all really my lab rats ;)
 
IMO, the worlds in the Core of the Imperium pay the same amount of Imperial taxes as the worlds on the Fringe, but most of that money goes to pay for the fleets on the frontiers, since you don't need much of a navy in the center of the Imperium (just who are they going to fight?). The central worlds also don't spend much on their own planetary forces, for the same reason. No wars (most issues were settled a long time ago) and little if any piracy (same reason, nowhere for pirates to base because everything was settled a long time ago) means small planetary forces. Relatively small, that is; a TL15 world with Population-A can raise a whole lot of money even if each citizen is only taxed at a tenth of the rate the frontier worlds use.

Out on the fringe there are much larger Imperial forces, paid for by the Core worlds (where the tech and Pop are). The frontier worlds have heavier local taxes to raise enough money for significant local forces, given their lower average TL and Pop.

How big? If we look at Fifth Frontier War we see that Pop-A worlds have three starship squadrons in their planetary navy, Pop-9 worlds have two, and Pop-8 worlds have one squadron. The TL of the local squadrons is based (roughly) on the tech of the owning world. Worlds also have system defense boats (which can of course also do pirate chasing), the number of SDBs is based on TL and Pop and can be as few as 2 or as much as 1200.
 
I see nothing wrong with using TCS/Striker for determining a world's GDP, relative to other worlds.
Size of labor force and tech level effects are accounted for. The issue isn't that it doesn't work. the issue is that it didn't give numbers that GDW and FFE liked for the OTU. But given the random population distribution, random starport/trade_center distribution and the distribution of tech levels based on what people should have to survive as opposed to what they might have built up as manufacturing infrastructure, I'd say that the OTU economy is borked at the macro/meta-game level anyways.

As far as military budgeting is concern ( for any service, including naval ), I've already discussed a procedure in the IMTU forum.

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=20618&highlight=budgets
 
How big? If we look at Fifth Frontier War we see that Pop-A worlds have three starship squadrons in their planetary navy, Pop-9 worlds have two, and Pop-8 worlds have one squadron. The TL of the local squadrons is based (roughly) on the tech of the owning world. Worlds also have system defense boats (which can of course also do pirate chasing), the number of SDBs is based on TL and Pop and can be as few as 2 or as much as 1200.
The figures in FFW are effectively based on population multipliers of 1 (since the population multiplier wasn't introduced until later). This means that they can be off by as much as a factor 9.


Hans
 
I see nothing wrong with using TCS/Striker for determining a world's GDP, relative to other worlds.
Size of labor force and tech level effects are accounted for. The issue isn't that it doesn't work. the issue is that it didn't give numbers that GDW and FFE liked for the OTU.
And that's fair enough. But IMO the way to correct that is to adjust the population density of the OTU, not completely distort the logical ramifications of having a high population density.


Hans
 
Ok, I deleted most of this post (which rambled on about T5 and the use of RU, and mentioned Far Trader).

Remember to keep it fun for your players (and yourself). Whatever system works for that. Bounce it off the COTI folks for logic, then have fun.
 
Don't feel bad, I've deleted a few too. I haven't seen anything of T5 yet, though I did send Marc a note inquiring about ordering a copy. I never got a copy of GURPS Far Trader, which apparently is a pity it sounds like it might have been useful.

Gaming groups differ, some might not even care if there even is an Imp Navy.... which is the opposite of the folks I've generally gamed with over the years (most of us have strong roots in wargames so games tend to take on a more militaristic aspect). Add to that that as a GM I have something of a rep for running pretty well thought out campaigns and yeah, I prefer to give it all some careful thought.

I like some of the ideas I've seen so far and its been helpful when some have pointed out things I haven't thought of. Not so keen on the argument as to whether Striker is or isn't canon, or whether it was or wasn't intended for this or that... all I can say is, I hope these discussions are kept in mind for T5, and I'll leave it at that.

In the end, this discussion so far has given me some interesting ideas and caused me to consider things I hadn't before, so even if I left it where it is now, I'd have a better game as a result. But I don't intend to leave it here.

Given what I've read in Mercenary regarding the kind of conflicts the 3I will "tolerate" it seems to make the idea that these planetary fleets are as much for defense against their neighbors in local disputes as they are anything else is actually plausible (if a bit of a surprise to me). If that's the case then I can definitely see individual worlds building up whatever defenses they can afford. Its an idea I'm still pondering.
 
Given what I've read in Mercenary regarding the kind of conflicts the 3I will "tolerate" it seems to make the idea that these planetary fleets are as much for defense against their neighbors in local disputes as they are anything else is actually plausible (if a bit of a surprise to me). If that's the case then I can definitely see individual worlds building up whatever defenses they can afford. Its an idea I'm still pondering.
I'd like to be able to justify planetary defense forces that way, but I don't think the other statements about mercenaries (TTA and various MT material) bears it out. It looks to me like what the Imperium tolerates is a certain amount of internal strife, up to and including civil wars that don't interfere too much with trade and prosperity. Off-planet interference is quite limited, however. The outsider must have a "legitimate interest" in the outcome and must provide support for someone local. I suspect that the moment a national unit gets involved, the line has been crossed (military advisers are probably OK and "military advisers" too).


Hans
 
I think it is another example of the subtle paradigm shift in what the Imperium was supposed to be.

In the early days the Imperium was portrayed as a lot darker than it became - almost but not quite Star Wars despotic. Over time the Imperium shifted to becoming the good guys.

Now in the early days of the dark Imperium setting I can very much see the need for frontier worlds to have their own Navies.

Nobles sponsoring raids on their rival's holdings, megacorporations using their private armies and navies (or merc forces) to 'influence' local politics (these two make for an almost Dune like setting), commerce raiding by organised corsair groups, commerce raiding by privateers sponsored beyond the Imperial border, ethically challenged merchants trying to make ends meet - the list goes on.

And all the while the regular Imperial Navy looks the other way so long as the Imperium keeps getting their taxes - sorry, as long as the local economy isn't disrupted too much.

I really wish GDW had gone with this vision of the Imperium - it was much more fun to be a player in the early days with a background like that.

By the time we get the sanitized Imperial good guys the OTU isn't as much fun IMHO.
 
Keep in mind, if a system builds a "defensive" fleet just to protect their planet then it very likely will be system Defense Boat (SDB) types of ships. There are a few good reasons for this.

First, if they are just for protection then you can give them full armor, ammo, weapons, and speed. There will also be extra room to add guns by having fighters on board.

Second, Jump drives are expensive in both cost and upkeep. You can save lots of cash this way.

Third and most important. If your fleet can not jump, it is not likely to be "borrowed" by Subsector or higher commands. The fleet will stay home when other planets might get stripped in a emergency. If there is a breakthrough you become a hard target they may just pass by.

I still think 5Kt or under are fine for planetary unless it is a big, rich, Hi-pop planet. Give the subsector fleets from 5 to 50KT, and let the Imperial battlegroups have the big stuff. There is no reason for the PC's to have to deal with a Light cruiser or larger. It is out of the scope of most games.
 
I'm mulling that over as well. I can't really find much official one way or the other... except that apparently about the limit for ground forces is a battalion or less (which makes you wonder, does an Imp referee show up and do a head count? :rofl: ). Also, no nukes. I'm trying to find the reference but I read somewhere something about the Imps wouldn't intervene if for example military ships or troop transports were hit... but start blowing up random merchant ships and that gets their attention (same if you start blowing up entire cities, factories, etc.). If it were allowable, it a weird way it would even kind of make sense. What I mean is, if the conflicts have to remain limited to basically military assets, no blowing up cities, no nukes then such a "war" might actually be good for business. Imagine how much the megacorps could make off arms sales, replacing ships, and so forth. Given that from what I have read the big concern of the Imps is about trade, and Cleon was a CEO... maybe... pretty cynical but possible. Still kicking the idea around, it would explain why systems spend so much building their own navies... otherwise it doesn't make much sense to me. Really wish there was more info about this sort of stuff.
 
Keep in mind, if a system builds a "defensive" fleet just to protect their planet then it very likely will be system Defense Boat (SDB) types of ships. There are a few good reasons for this.

First, if they are just for protection then you can give them full armor, ammo, weapons, and speed. There will also be extra room to add guns by having fighters on board.

Second, Jump drives are expensive in both cost and upkeep. You can save lots of cash this way..

I agree, pretty much what I was thinking. Even if they had 10k destroyers or 100-200k cruisers they still wouldn't need to be jump capable... if they need to jump out there's always tenders / battleriders. That extra space means more fuel for longer patrol duty in system, more fire power, small craft for various purposes, and don't forget the marines, I would see that being important. I've seen too many SDB designs that had no marines... but for system patrols, exactly who is gonna do the cargo inspections and so forth if there are no marines?

I still think 5Kt or under are fine for planetary unless it is a big, rich, Hi-pop planet. Give the subsector fleets from 5 to 50KT, and let the Imperial battlegroups have the big stuff. There is no reason for the PC's to have to deal with a Light cruiser or larger. It is out of the scope of most games
Well now you're back to my original hypothesis :-p LOL

Although, if your players think dealing with a cruiser is out of their scope... they just aren't ambitious enough! :rofl: (Seriously, the people I game with... )

More seriously, I think part of my problem here is that apparently I've given more thought to what sort of routine stuff goes on in a planetary system than is "typical". Think of it this way. Remember the Firefly episode they go to the core worlds and steal a bunch of medical supplies. Alright, so lets imagine the Traveller equivalent... here's the typical kind of questions I'd expect to deal with.

What kind of Navy ships are around? What can we find out about their routine, patrol routes, maneuvers, maintenance, etc.? Is it normal for them to have 5 dreadnaughts there all the time? Really? They patrol with dreadnaughts? Really, kinda overkill isn't it? How good is the security on those things? (dirty look from me) Whaaaaa... just asking.

What kind of system security is there... smaller patrol ships, cargo checks, that sort of thing (cops in space)? What kind of patrol routes do they have? What's SOP for ships coming and going, ID, flight plans, checking cargo manafests, etc.? We want to do a couple of "dry runs" trading legit stuff, check it all out, what happens?

So once we get on the planet, what kind of ground security are we looking at? Radar coverage and air traffic control? This hospital, they hire rentacops or real pros? Are they hiring? How close is the local police department from the hospital? Can we trip the fire alarm without being noticed, we want to time the response time?

Get the idea? They tend to cover the bases and if I haven't thought of reasonable answers in advance I end up having to wing all this. You get five smart people collectively planning a heist and if I haven't thought out the kind of security in place in advance they're liable to hi-jack one of those dreadnaughts! :rofl:

Not that I can talk, when just playing I'm as bad as the rest of em. I'll steal anything not nailed down, and heaven help you if the first thing I steal is a pry bar! :D
 
I agree, pretty much what I was thinking. Even if they had 10k destroyers or 100-200k cruisers they still wouldn't need to be jump capable... if they need to jump out there's always tenders / battleriders. That extra space means more fuel for longer patrol duty in system, more fire power, small craft for various purposes, and don't forget the marines, I would see that being important. I've seen too many SDB designs that had no marines... but for system patrols, exactly who is gonna do the cargo inspections and so forth if there are no marines?

I like the solution in MgT's Sector Fleet (which I understand is a reprint of Grand Fleet, though I forget who the original publisher was). That book introduces the idea of the Naval Regiment (which seems to be analogous to the Naval Infantry of the old USSR, which was expressly *not* a semi-separate Marine Corps, IIRC) existing in parallel with (and overshadowed by) the Imperial Marines. That volume also mentions that, in the absence Marines or Naval Regiment, ship's gunners are also tasked with boarding party duties and trained for such.
 
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That extra space means more fuel for longer patrol duty in system, more fire power, small craft for various purposes, and don't forget the marines, I would see that being important. I've seen too many SDB designs that had no marines... but for system patrols, exactly who is gonna do the cargo inspections and so forth if there are no marines?
How many marines are there aboard Coast Guard vessels and customs cutters? Or MTBs for that matter, to stay in the naval arm.

That's not to say that some SDBs or monitors won't have marines (or the equivalent) aboard. But for vessels that are intended for customs inspection or search&rescue operations, marines would seem to be a bit overkill.


Hans
 
How many marines are there aboard Coast Guard vessels and customs cutters? Or MTBs for that matter, to stay in the naval arm.

That's not to say that some SDBs or monitors won't have marines (or the equivalent) aboard. But for vessels that are intended for customs inspection or search&rescue operations, marines would seem to be a bit overkill.


Hans

Most SDB's are also intended for anti-piracy actions. How many Coast Guard vessels are designed to go after AND board pirate ships armed with 5" guns? ....
 
What kind of Navy ships are around? What can we find out about their routine, patrol routes, maneuvers, maintenance, etc.? Is it normal for them to have 5 dreadnaughts there all the time? Really? They patrol with dreadnaughts? Really, kinda overkill isn't it? How good is the security on those things? (dirty look from me) Whaaaaa... just asking.

That depends on what do you call a patrol. Sure dreadnoughts are not used for antipiracy patrols (I agree that's quite an overkill), but they do patrol to show the flagg, and sure to remind the planetary fleets that can get too amibitious that they're there.

They can also patrol zones that are rumored to become hot (trade wars, planetary disputes, etc...), just to keep an eye on them and be able to react quickly, before it become a 'fait acompli'.

Of course, this becomes also a piracy deterrent. As someone told here, in our TL 7-8 earth piracy was all but erradicated while the cold war was on, just for the presence of large task forces arround the world, even if their mission was not antipiracy, but keep an eye to other power's affairs.

I've seen too many SDB designs that had no marines... but for system patrols, exactly who is gonna do the cargo inspections and so forth if there are no marines?

I belive for custom duty and inspectios ship boats and pinaces are more lickely to be used, reserving SDBs as a reserve for if they're needed.

In our old Earth, those missions are usually done by small patrol boats that go nearly unarmed (at least as to naval gunnery). Thy use to have at most a pair of 0.50 cal MGs or small cannon, enought to scare, but not to sink, as they're mostly concerned with unarmored merchants.

Sure, if anything really theartened them, they whould get quick reinforcements (probably in form of air help or some PTM), but distances and response times for coast patrols on earth are quite small...



Most SDB's are also intended for anti-piracy actions. How many Coast Guard vessels are designed to go after AND board pirate ships armed with 5" guns? ....

In the US coast, I think they probaly don't carry marines, but I'm not sure about Coast Guard equivalents on other parts of the world, where piracy is a problem.

When piracy was a problem near US coast, didn't they carry a boarding party?

As I am not US citiezen and don't know too well Coast Guart history, but I guess they carried them when it was constituted, or during US civil war, as then piracy and raiders were a major concern.
 
I pretty sure that there are legal restrictions to putting Marines aboard US Coast Guard vessels given it has primarily a law enforcement and not national defense mission. (This is blurred somewhat by the USCG being part of Homeland Security now but I'm pretty sure that's correct).
 
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