CT Only: Starships & Starport A's & TL

[creativehum]

There's nothing about a starport having a tech level different from that of a world (this fact is confirmed in LBB5).

Thus, the world TL governs the ships produced at the starports.

There is nothing on Book 3 about the world and the starport being connected either. The quote you pulled could easily refer to the world (things produced on a world) and have nothing to do with the starport.

As for Book 5 -- it's its own thing -- to be used or not used as the Referee wishes. (I don't think some people understand that for a lot of folks back in the '80s Traveller was Books 1-3 and the other products in the game line were things "out there" that they never really looked at.)

Book 5 creates a rule that does not exist in Book 3 --which is fine. But to say because something is in Book 5 one must read Book 3 a certain way is to blow past the clearly modular nature of the Classic Traveller line. (Clear to me. I understand there are plenty of people who don't see the matter this way.)

The overall point I'm after -- if someone were playing with only Books 1-3 -- as the game was originally built to be played -- there is no reason to assume the Referee would be making the same assumptions you are making. I'm not saying you are wrong for setting these rules for your setting. I'm saying that trying to nail this down for everyone is an unneeded overreach.

 

[mike wightman]

What other parts of LBBs 1-3 break down on large scale use?

Using the trade rules to model the economy of the whole Imperium springs immediately to mind...

 

[Whipsnade]

In what way does the system break down?

Chargen is one. The "No Shoe Salesmen" paradox.

Leaving aside the question of careers, the skills listed in the basic rules are no where near enough to model a society on a single world, let alone 11,000 worlds. That's why we first see an expansion of skills in CT followed by an explosion of skills in MT.

As the game moved away from playing within a small personal setting to modeling a huge official setting, more skills - more details of all types - were needed.

Remember when we were discussing how best to describe the change to Traveller after LBB:5 High Guard and I suggested the word "bigger"? Bigger setting, bigger ships, bigger Imperium, bigger money, bigger trade, bigger history, bigger skill lists, bigger everything.

Yet, despite the explosion in skills, careers were still limited to those in LBB:1 and S:4. The Other career offers a nice grab bag skills, but it's skewed towards the unsavory side of life. While, the Bureaucrat career is more law abiding, it too is fairly limited.

Chargen was fine when it only had to support a small personal setting of a subsector or two. When it had to begin modeling the huge official setting chargen wasn't up to the task.

I'd also mention the trade system, but Mike beat me to it!

 

[creativehum]

That is an extremely cogent point. You've put your finger right on the nub of the situation.

Sysgen "worked" when it was employed to explain a limited number of worlds within a very personal setting; the famous "... one or two sub-sectors should be quite enough for years of adventure..." quote.

When sysgen was expanded far beyond it's intended use, the system quite naturally broke down. The same can be said for many parts of LBBs 1 - 3.

While the delightfully wonderful and entirely real Trappist-1 system could have easily been "hand crafted" for a setting, it never could have been produced by any of Traveller's "automated" system generation processes. More importantly, our reliance on those systems to determine what is "realistic" or not mean that most of us - myself definitely included as I've admitted above - would have never even thought of handcrafting a Trappist-1.

Not only are all versions of Traveller's sysgen broken, those versions unwittingly place boundaries on our imaginations.

I find the matter less fraught than you do.

First, the game and implied setting are focused on the novelty of traveling between star systems with starships -- so focusing on Main Worlds makes sense for the logic of the rules.

Second, one is not handcuffed by the UWPs. At least I'm not. If I come up with "Balkanized" and daydream several earth sized worlds around one sun from that -- boom -- that's a what it is. Again, the UWPs were not designed to be literal definitions of worlds but tools of creativity for the Referee. I use them to daydream possibilities... not to justify the factors of the UWP.

Finally, they are there to be used as needed or desired. If someone wants to place a Trappist-1 system in his subsector he doesn't have to randomly roll the results to get permission to do that... he just puts the systm on his subsector map.

 

[creativehum]

Using the trade rules to model the economy of the whole Imperium springs immediately to mind...

Yeah. Don't do that.

 

[pendragonman]

Another question about Kinorb is how it is only TL5 when sys gen gives a minimum of TL of 8 for its stats )

Local politics/society actively wants to limit the technology supported on the local world?

Maybe for tourism (a resort atmosphere like staying in Colonial Williamsburg) or some faction didn't like/accept the changes to society that TL8 creates.

 

[creativehum]

I think the point of Shoe Salesmen is interesting.

The fact is one could create -- easily -- prior service skill tables and the skills for shoe salesmen. Like, this is a trivial matter. And certainly there are shoe salesmen, so why not?

The question is "Why?" What, exactly, would be the purpose or point? This question leads to lots of other questions -- "What does one want from the game of Traveller?" "What is the point of play?" "What sorts of situations of kinds of fiction (or reality) is one emulating or simulating?"

I can look at the rules found in Books 1-3 and see clearly what the game is about. There is no confusion or mystery.

But the moment someone starts asking about shoe salesman I am going to have to ask "Hey, what?" Not in a dismissive way, but in the way we can be smart about RPG play and really set expectations about what we are sitting down to do. It's a really important thing to do. (Full disclosure -- I have never read the Traveller rules and thought, "But what about the tables and skills for shoe salesmen?")

 

[Supplement Four]

There is nothing on Book 3 about the world and the starport being connected either.

This is @mike wightman, too as he said the same thing.

Starport creation is a part of world creation. It's in the same chapter as the creation of Size, Hydro, Atmo, Pop, Govt, Law Level, and Tech.

Starport is part of the world description. Tech Level describes that aspect of the world.

Why would you separate the Starport from the other elements of world creation?

LBB 3, page 8 says that local citizenry won't be armed with weapons outside of their TL. Why consider that the starport is any different?

Confirmation: Just as with the discussion with Straybow about cargo costs, if it is unclear in LBB 1-3, what I am saying is confirmed later with LBB 5.





HERE'S SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT...

If the world's TL is not supposed to be the TL of the world's starport, then why are the Drive letters on the TL table?

The drive letters (A-D @ TL 9, E-H @ TL A, etc) are only used in starship construction and space combat.

If the TL table is only meant to give a general idea of what kind of tech is possible at a certain TL, then the drives would not be on the list. Instead, the chart would only feature a note at TL 9 saying that Jump drives are TL 9+.

Instead, the chart goes on to show Refs what TL is needed to construct the specific drive letters.





IMPORTS

The idea of imports pops up here and there. It is mentioned on page 8, LBB3.

I think that the rules are flexible.

If a Ref wants to play where all Class A starports can produce any TL ship, then the rules support that under the vague import idea.

Or, if a Ref wants to play according to the TL table, then the rules support that as well, where a Class A starport can only produce a starship up to the limits of the world TL.

 

[Supplement Four]

Chargen is one. The "No Shoe Salesmen" paradox.

Leaving aside the question of careers, the skills listed in the basic rules are no where near enough to model a society on a single world, let alone 11,000 worlds.

I don't follow. That's not their function. The function of the careers is to create fun, adventurer characters. I doubt many players want to play Traveller as a Shoe Salesman.

 

[Condottiere]

Could be fascinating.

 

[Whipsnade]

Second, one is not handcuffed by the UWPs. At least I'm not.

I freely admit that I've at least been subconsciously handcuffed by the process which creates UWPs. Not the UWPs themselves exactly, but by the process that produces them.

I'd like to think I'm somewhat creative when it come to the sociological side of the UWP. I've fiddled with the physical side too. MTU has shirtsleeve worlds at Lagrange points, inhabited planets orbiting a common center while also orbiting a star, worlds in rosettes, and the like. But Trappist-1?

A M8V red dwarf with seven Earth-sized worlds inside Orbit 1 and three of which are in the Goldilocks zone?

If I'd thought it up, I would have dismissed it as too fantastic.

That's sad in a way. Before the 22nd of this month, my preconceptions, which have been partially formed by Traveller's various sysgens, would have led me to dismiss an actual planetary system as wildly implausible if not impossible.

 

[Supplement Four]

More Points on the Starport TL Issue...

STARPORTS AND WORLD TECH LEVEL



If what I say above, about the TL chart, doesn't persuade you that a world's TL is also shared by the Starport, then consider this...

If a Starport has a TL, and a world has a different TL, then it should be possible to create a world that is Starport Class A and world TL 2.

Or Class A and TL 4.

Or Class A and TL 0.



But, by the rules, the general minimum TL for a world with a Class A Starport is TL 7 (TL 5 on worlds with a Religious Dictatorship).

This, right here, proves that a Starport TL is not independent of the world TL.

 

[Whipsnade]

I don't follow. That's not their function. The function of the careers is to create fun, adventurer characters. I doubt many players want to play Traveller as a Shoe Salesman.

As the game became "big", it moved from a purely play-focus and more towards a model-focus. It's a change in emphasis.

Take LBB:2 trade system. It works fine when your players are pushing a Beowulf through a subsector trying make their mortgage payments and it fails utterly when you try to model even a fraction the Imperial economy.

 

[Supplement Four]

As the game became "big", it moved from a purely play-focus and more towards a model-focus. It's a change in emphasis.

Take LBB:2 trade system. It works fine when your players are pushing a Beowulf through a subsector trying make their mortgage payments and it fails utterly when you try to model even a fraction the Imperial economy.

Where does the trade system become "big" then?

 

[creativehum]

But, by the rules, the general minimum TL for a world with a Class A Starport is TL 7 (TL 5 on worlds with a Religious Dictatorship).

This, right here, proves that a Starport TL is not independent of the world TL.

I assumed this is because the Starport tech influences the world around it, not the other way around. So, I'm not saying the world and starport are independent of each other. I'm saying the starport is not dependent on the world. The ability of a starport to do its job properly is not based on the TL of the world.

But that's my assumption. I don't claim it to be the correct interpretation.

As for the TL table and drives: I usually look at the TL table to get a sense of how advanced the overall setting of play is. The TL table in Book 3 doesn't mention "averages" of tech -- it is up to the Referee to decide the average and maximimum tech for his or her setting. Thus, a setting may not require TL 15 starports if the Referee caps the TL at 11 or 12.

I also think the disparity beeteen -- and clashes of -- different tech levels right next to each other is something the game (Books 1-3) encourages and asks players and Referees to explore. (I understand that is a personal interpration -- but I can't help but think Miller's time in Viet Nam influenced the rules in this way.)

Still, the question of drive technology and world TL and starport tech has to be answered in some fashion. It's terrific food for thought and I appreciate you briniging it up.

 

[kilemall]

STARPORTS AND WORLD TECH LEVEL



If what I say above, about the TL chart, doesn't persuade you that a world's TL is also shared by the Starport, then consider this...

If a Starport has a TL, and a world has a different TL, then it should be possible to create a world that is Starport Class A and world TL 2.

Or Class A and TL 4.

Or Class A and TL 0.



But, by the rules, the general minimum TL for a world with a Class A Starport is TL 7 (TL 5 on worlds with a Religious Dictatorship).

This, right here, proves that a Starport TL is not independent of the world TL.

The TL5 thing actually makes sense to me, even if it wasn't an intentional design decision.

That's when you start producing industrial steel, the base material technology for ship hulls.

Note you can also get a Model 1 computer, I have to think it is an analog one much like fire control computers on battleships.

 

[aramis]

I don't follow. That's not their function. The function of the careers is to create fun, adventurer characters. I doubt many players want to play Traveller as a Shoe Salesman.

And that's why they don't scale to the whole of a society. We can't model the society based upon the tables we've been given. Not with Bk 1, nor with Bk 1 and Sup 4. We can at best model a large chunk.

Hell, if we just take the commissioning rolls and extrapolate...

The Bk1 Army will be... let's see

Endu 7+ gives the +1...
And the roll is 5+...

21/36 x 33/36
+ 15/36 x 30/36
= (693+450)/1296
=1143/1294

88% of the army are officers.
I think not.

 

[pendragonman]

And that's why they don't scale to the whole of a society. We can't model the society based upon the tables we've been given. Not with Bk 1, nor with Bk 1 and Sup 4. We can at best model a large chunk.

Hell, if we just take the commissioning rolls and extrapolate...

The Bk1 Army will be... let's see

Endu 7+ gives the +1...
And the roll is 5+...

21/36 x 33/36
+ 15/36 x 30/36
= (693+450)/1296
=1143/1294

88% of the army are officers.
I think not.

Think how scary that army is for the enlisted...

 

[mike wightman]

STARPORTS AND WORLD TECH LEVEL



If what I say above, about the TL chart, doesn't persuade you that a world's TL is also shared by the Starport, then consider this...

It doesn't and it never will.

LBB:2 clearly states you can build any ship at any type A starport if you have the money.

If a Starport has a TL, and a world has a different TL, then it should be possible to create a world that is Starport Class A and world TL 2.

Or Class A and TL 4.

Or Class A and TL 0.



But, by the rules, the general minimum TL for a world with a Class A Starport is TL 7 (TL 5 on worlds with a Religious Dictatorship).

There is a rule that the ref can design worlds to suit:

"Finally, the referee should always feel free to create worlds which have been
deliberately (rather than randomly) generated. Often such planets will be devised
specifically to reward or torment players."

This, right here, proves that a Starport TL Is not independent of the world TL.

No it doesn't, it is the other way around.
For one thing TL is derived from starport type (at the end of the sequence), starport type is not determined from TL, and secondly (this one is weak I admit) local law level doesn't apply to the starport so why should local TL - especially when the starport is capable of building and maintaining any LBB2 ship?

World TL is dependent on starport type, starport type is not dependent on local TL

And by the rules Kinorb should be TL8

Now look at this quote:

The tables indicate the general types or categories of goods in general use on the world. In most cases, such goods are the best which may be produced locally, although better goods may be imported by local organizations or businesses when a specific need is felt.

Better goods when a specific need is felt - such as the manufacture and maintenance of starships.

 

[mike wightman]

If a Ref wants to play where all Class A starports can produce any TL ship, then the rules support that under the vague import idea.

Or, if a Ref wants to play according to the TL table, then the rules support that as well, where a Class A starport can only produce a starship up to the limits of the world TL.[/B]

I completely agree.