Stateroom size - 4 tons too much?

[AnotherDilbert]

Using the figures here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/crew-accommodations

We get roughly 4 m² (~1 Dt) per person for sleeping, lounging, and eating.

Add in corridors and all the other space needed to keep people fed, washed, clothed, and breathing for months on end, 2 Dt per person looks rather reasonable.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Even then the ACTUAL PLANS steal space from the 20 dTon bridge that would have a scout or free trader crew practicing "Ballroom Dancing" during the night shift.

The "bridge" isn't just a room with workstations:

LBB2'81, p13:
A. The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons) to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors, and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.

The entire front and top of the Scout is "bridge".

 

[atpollard]

"Steel is cheap and air is free" (when it comes to construction costs).

So ... small craft cabin ... and no sealed environment life support equipment required.

"Excuse me, I'm just going to go to my stateroom and open the window to get some let out all the fresh air ... that space is known to have plenty of ... um ...

What is the per capita Life Support Volume for AIR in the ISS?
(I bet that for two people it would fit in that space above the wardrobe cabinet.)

 

[atpollard]

The "bridge" isn't just a room with workstations:

The entire front and top of the Scout is "bridge".

My issue is that the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 2 (generous) 100 dTon SCOUT is identical to the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 10 (minimum) 1000 dTon WARSHIP. So if I remove those 8 Bridge Workstations for the Crewmen that are not needed on the Scout, then I have room to practice Ballroom Dancing ... don't I.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My issue is that the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 2 (generous) 100 dTon SCOUT is identical to the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 10 (minimum) 1000 dTon WARSHIP. So if I remove those 8 Bridge Workstations for the Crewmen that are not needed on the Scout, then I have room to practice Ballroom Dancing ... don't I.

What eight crewstations?

A 1000 Dt warship has the same bridge (the same avionics, sensors, and commo) and the same bridge crew (Pilot + Navigator) as a Scout.

 

[kilemall]

My issue is that the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 2 (generous) 100 dTon SCOUT is identical to the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 10 (minimum) 1000 dTon WARSHIP. So if I remove those 8 Bridge Workstations for the Crewmen that are not needed on the Scout, then I have room to practice Ballroom Dancing ... don't I.

The way I figure it, there is a lot more automation packed into that bridge which is why the Scout Service can get away with a lot less minimum crew.

 

[Badenov]

Looking at the video, the bed looked roughly 2 foot x 6 foot and the room appeared to be about 3 beds wide (6 feet) and 2 beds long (12 feet) making it about 72 square feet. With about 50 square feet per dTon, that places the Cruise Ship Crew Cabin around 1.5 dTons (including the refresher) for a 2 person occupancy.

That would make the cabin as wide as the bunk is long. It seemed wider than that to me, but it wasn't a video meant to measure the room, so it's not definitive either way. I estimated it as closer to 5m x 4m x 2.5m tall including the closet and such, for 50m^3, which is about 3.5-4T. But regardless, it's close enough to make the point.

That is only a small part of the total personnel space aboard. How large were the mess-halls, galleys, sickbays, freshers, storage, plumbing, lounges, briefing rooms, air conditioning, gyms, and all the corridors? How large was the Captain's cabin and officers wardroom? It all comes out of each person's 2 Dt...

Barracks-style accommodations generally means more space somewhere else.

Yes. I just wanted to show how cramped the living accodations -could- be. The heads were pretty cramped, and the sickbay wasn't large, either. It was probably about 4-6T also, as best I can remember the dimensions ~4x6m. Mess deck was maybe 12x20m and galley was probably half again as large, and the machinery for air condition/heating was in the berthing with us. My berthing was maybe 8m x 12m x 3m high and housed around 36 people (the smallest permanently occupied berthing) which gives about 8m^3 per person in the living spaces, proper, though you can see from the pic, the bed, itself, was maybe 2m^3 of it.

Junior Officers' cabins were about the same size as the cruise ship cabin in the video and double occupancy, senior officer cabins were the same size, but single occupied. They generally doubled as office space, so that usually ate the 'extra' room. I intrepret the 4T officer staterooms mandated by High Guard as these combo stateroom/office things. The skipper's cabin was a smidge bigger than the rest of the staterooms, but not a huge amount more.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your...mfort-a-centerpiece-of-new-supercarrier-ford/

~300 m² is perhaps ~65 Dt, not much per person, but it all adds up.

Yeah, but you've got 4500-some crew, less than other carriers, still all contributing their odd spare cubic meters, and it adds up.

 

[Spinward Flow]

My issue is that the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 2 (generous) 100 dTon SCOUT is identical to the 20 dTons of required BRIDGE on a crew 10 (minimum) 1000 dTon WARSHIP.

100 ton starship bridge = 20 tons, MCr0.5
1000 ton starship bridge = 20 tons, MCr5

Not exactly identical ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Yes. I just wanted to show how cramped the living accodations -could- be. The heads were pretty cramped, and the sickbay wasn't large, either. It was probably about 4-6T also, as best I can remember the dimensions ~4x6m.

That really surprises me; ~5 Dt sickbay for 5000 people deliberately going in harms way?

This appears to have been slightly upgraded in the latest generation:

Gerald R. Ford, first in the class, has an on-board hospital that includes a full laboratory, pharmacy, operating room, 3-bed intensive care unit, 2-bed emergency room, and 41-bed hospital ward, staffed by 11 medical officers and 30 hospital corpsmen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_carrier#Medical_facilities

Junior Officers' cabins were about the same size as the cruise ship cabin in the video and double occupancy, senior officer cabins were the same size, but single occupied. They generally doubled as office space, so that usually ate the 'extra' room. I intrepret the 4T officer staterooms mandated by High Guard as these combo stateroom/office things.

Quite, still "stateroom" space.


The Captain of the Ford has two sets of cabins, a "small" day cabin by the bridge and an in-port suite with bedroom, bathroom, office, and dining room:

That is quite a large "stateroom".

That is the Captain's quarters, then there is the Admiral's quarters...


https://www.businessinsider.com/photos-life-aboard-us-aircraft-carrier-2016-6

"Staterooms":

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Badenov]

That really surprises me; ~5 Dt sickbay for 5000 people deliberately going in harms way?

This appears to have been slightly upgraded in the latest generation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_R._Ford-class_aircraft_carrier#Medical_facilities

Well, my ship was only 375 people, not 5000. My only knowledge about Ford is from wikipedia (and Chevy Chase) and I will press the "I believe" button on what they say. I will say that aircraft carriers have more space for everything in comparison to destroyers and other 'small' ships.

^
I was in what is marked as the Forward CL berthing, which was actually two berthings, stacked one on top of the other, and because the hull is vaguely V-shaped, the lower berthing is necessarily not as wide as the upper berthing. The skipper's At Sea cabin is the CO just behind the forward mast and just behind the bridge, here marked PH for Pilot House. The skipper's In Port cabin was among the huge blob marked SR/WR, which are the staterooms and Wardroom (officer's mess).

Quite, still "stateroom" space.


The Captain of the Ford has two sets of cabins, a "small" day cabin by the bridge and an in-port suite with bedroom, bathroom, office, and dining room:

Ah, right. Our skipper had an In Port and At Sea cabin also. The In Port cabin -was- larger than the At Sea cabin, though I can't say by how much. Except when we had an Admiral embarked, and the Admiral got the In Port cabin, and the skipper got shuffled off to the At Sea cabin for the duration. During my time cranking (ship's force non-service people assisting the service people on a rotation), we had an Admiral embarked, and his people took care of that cabin, so I only saw it once.

That is the Captain's quarters, then there is the Admiral's quarters...

I guess I'm not surprised that Ford has a separate cabin for the Admiral. As I said before, Carriers are notorious for having tons of space that other ships don't have.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Carriers are notorious for having tons of space that other ships don't have.

When your ship displaces over 100,000 tons of water ... that point literally becomes true!

 

[TamsinP]

So, the 2T/4T cabin thing is typical of civilian ships in RL.

is a RL cruise ship crew stateroom, and the person giving the tour says it's normally a double, but it's just him owing to specific circumstances. Ballparking the cabin size in meters, it could be close to a 4T cabin, double-occupied obviously, so I think it's a good estimate for a Traveller cabin.

That guy was fortunate - his cabin had its own bathroom; sometimes there is one bathroom shared by two double-occupancy cabins.

 

[atpollard]

100 ton starship bridge = 20 tons, MCr0.5
1000 ton starship bridge = 20 tons, MCr5

Not exactly identical ...

Nope ... one has LOTS MORE stations and equipment for the Bridge Crew and the other has a lot of empty floor space where those 8 or 9 missing crew stations can be installed if I choose to install a 10 person bridge crew in a 100 dTon ship (per HG crew standards).

Which (in your opinion) is which?
BOTH are 20 dTons!

 

[whartung]

Just trying to visualize diners in dress blues holding on to their fine china and stemware while the rest of the dishes are sliding back and forth in rough seas.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Nope ... one has LOTS MORE stations and equipment for the Bridge Crew and the other has a lot of empty floor space where those 8 or 9 missing crew stations can be installed if I choose to install a 10 person bridge crew in a 100 dTon ship (per HG crew standards).

Small ships need one (1) bridge crew, the Pilot.
Larger ships, up to 1000 Dt (including) need two (2) bridge crew, a Pilot and a Navigator.

LBB5'80, p32:
The actual number of crew personnel required for the ship must be computed based on the drives, weaponry, and other equipment carried by the ship. If the ship is 1,000 tons or under, then the rules stated in Book 2 should be followed.

LBB2'81, p16:
SHIP CREWS
Each ship requires a crew. On small ships, the crew may be one person; on larger ships, the crew can be quite large. The following basic crew positions must be filled:
Pilot: Each starship and non-starship requires a pilot, who must have at least pilot-1 skill. Small craft require a pilot who must have at least ship's boat-1.
Navigator: Each starship displacing greater than 200 tons must have a navigator. The pilot of a small craft or non-starshipcan handle its navigation requirements.
Engineer: Any ship with tonnage 200 tons or more must have one engineer (with minimum engineer-1 skill) per 35 tons of drives and power plant. If there is more than one engineer, then the most skilled (or the oldest) becomes chief engineer with 10% more pay. Ships under 200 tons and small craft do not require an engineer, although engineering skill may prove useful.
Steward: If high passengers ...

Ships over 1000 Dt have more bridge crew, but they also have larger bridges...

 

[MichaelSTee]

My wife and I are currently in a Travel Trailer that is 38ft by 8ft, with 3 slideouts adding a bit of room. I may have a bit more living space than the OP, as I have a truck to pull the trailer so no cockpit needed.
While my trailer space is larger than a Traveller stateroom, it does include a kitchen, dining area, several comfy seats and large TV. We have stayed indoors for 3-4 days at a stretch, due to inclement weather.
The last time I was on a cruise ship (1 week, Vancouver to Whittier) the room we had was as large as this trailer, and didn't include a kitchen.

IMTU: I think crew quarters on a starship should be as compact as the cruise ship crew quarters. See picture on GT Starships, page 10. Also a standard passenger stateroom can hold 2 adults, and even 2 small children as well.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Well, my ship was only 375 people, not 5000.

OK, makes sense, destroyers are more cramped. Still, a small sickbay for 375 people in combat? Good enough if a carrier with a full hospital is close, but...

I guess I'm not surprised that Ford has a separate cabin for the Admiral. As I said before, Carriers are notorious for having tons of space that other ships don't have.

As far as I know carriers have three COs with attending staffs: The admiral commanding the carrier group, the Captain commanding the ship, and a captain of the air wing.

I guess they need lots of briefing rooms?

 

[Badenov]

OK, makes sense, destroyers are more cramped. Still, a small sickbay for 375 people in combat? Good enough if a carrier with a full hospital is close, but...

Yep. A mass casualty would be pretty awful on a small ship, though every crew has (very) basic first aid training for basic trauma. Generally if anyone gets anything that can't be fixed with a band-aid or Vitamin M (Motrin) they get medevac'ed. Serious cases on carriers get medevac'ed, too, actually, if they're near enough to a suitable place.

As far as I know carriers have three COs with attending staffs: The admiral commanding the carrier group, the Captain commanding the ship, and a captain of the air wing.

I guess they need lots of briefing rooms?

So, the ship's skipper's 'staff' are just the normal ship's officers. The air boss's staff, I don't know about as I was not in aviation. I think you only get a proper staff for the admiral commanding the battle group.

 

[atpollard]

Small ships need one (1) bridge crew, the Pilot.
Larger ships, up to 1000 Dt (including) need two (2) bridge crew, a Pilot and a Navigator.

Ships over 1000 Dt have more bridge crew, but they also have larger bridges...

I was desperately trying to avoid responding to your comment and being drawn into a tangential argument, but you have presented it twice now, so it seems unavoidable ...

Where are the ENGINEERS and MEDICS on a 1000 dTon ship according to LBB 2?
[HINT: what is the tonnage specified for an ENGINEERING workstation and SICKBAY?]

EDIT: working the problem from the other direction, look at the BRIDGE on an 800 dTon Broadsword deckplan ... where did the VOLUME for all those extra seats come from and what happened to the missing VITAL EQUIPMENT from the 100 dTon ship that occupied that tonnage?