Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage

[kilemall]

All these attribute of the RAM grenade may be true, but they're also a bit awkward to use and deploy. While capable against BD, in that case it's a point weapon, vs an area weapon (as shrapnel would have no effect against BD).

And now you're targeting a man sized target, something that dodges and serpentines.

Vehicles tend to be slow and plodding, making them fine RAM targets. Wall tend to not move at all, make them ever better targets. Men are more crafty and nimble, making them difficult targets. Plus you have the whole issue of "hard targets" vs "soft targets".

I don't quite think it'll be the Zulu Wars, but I think there's similarities.

So, while a RAM grenade may well be effective, operationally, I think their effectiveness is over stated.

I had considered the dodgy part of trying to hit BD troops vs armor, but the evasion mods in general for both CT and Striker are weak, which is why their penetration and to hit looms large, not to mention price/performance.

I am trending towards 'roll Dex or less on 2d6, increase difficulty one level' which in my system would be a -3, pretty significant survival odds.

The big helper for BD Striker wise would be grav belts and being at high speed. Not sure how fast grav belts can officially go for BD troopers, but that could help quite a bit to avoid hits.

Another thing that came to mind is all the emphasis on camo and chameleon/thermal options for CA and BD may help against homing RAM GLs, the former for optical/target imaging and the latter for thermal/IR. Probably should be an anti-radar/lidar option as well.

But probably a bigger help for the camo/chameleon thing is being invisible for direct fire to hits in general. If the opposition cannot see you, then they have to do recon by fire, a -4 to hit. BIG survival advantage, and probably explains the emphasis on that tech rather then brute armor capability.

Not seeing the hard vs. soft distinction here, the BD wearing trooper is effectively armored at least like a light armored car, not a gravtruck. Pretty sure the plasma fist of a RAM GL punches such a trooper as hard as it does a light tank.

 

[kilemall]

The problem is that in any realistic-ish design system you simply can't make a Traveller-style Battle Dress that carries enough armour to defeat a RAM grenade or an RPG.

Now CT and CT/Striker don't have a design sequence for BD. Nor does MegaTrav. The power armour is pre-cooked and presumably done via "it looks about right".

TNE/FFS has a system to design power armour and the results are pretty clear. You just need too much armour to protect a man in a suit from a 4cm HEAP round and still expect to wander about.

Hence T4 with its Battle Pods. If you use grav you don't have to worry about weight and ground pressure and can layer on the armour. Of course, you're not a man in a suit anymore and need a bigger construct along with T4's magic small cold fusion power plants.

I'm working a thread in another subforum called Active Battle Dress, with the design goal of a near man-sized suit (1 ton or less so it can be fired from a jump tube) that can fly around like the ABD of StarSoldier, in Striker form, with grav generators.

I'm using the mini-fusion plants from the Robots book, which are highly compliant with Striker terms and performance (the smaller you go the worse the per m³ production).

Already ran into serious weight issues even with upgraded TL multipliers, going to have to slim it down, make it smaller, make the sides more vulnerable and have less geegaws/more battery power for max fighting/maneuver time.

Another option is a armor 20 shield the BD carries, but advances with it angled so the armor is effectively 40. Haven't worked out the weight yet, so it may not be viable. Needs to come in 20kg or less.

BD guys may actually have to go to ancient infantry formations to survive assaults in the absence of combined arms support.

 

[kilemall]

I see battle dress as something you deploy with an escort of unpowered troops - a section will have 2-4 fire teams with 1-2 BD equipped troops per team with one or two unpowered escorts each to keep the enemy off their back. Battle dress is a gun platform for assault units.

If you view it as something more like a small mech than personal body armour then you could imagine it being armoured to keep out small arms fire, which it does for all intents and purposes. However, you may wish to nerf combat armour back to the 8-10 range.

Well, it's not so much what it is at TL12, but by TL15 it should be pretty awesome, especially the increases in armor tech that are apparent in starships and Striker vehicles.

Your conception of their relative employment and use would seem to me to be more appropriate for the Army, a much larger force deployed for serious territory control with a great deal of combined arms support. Marines would be expeditionary and IMO more inclined to pack more punch in less tons, given that they are often organic complements on board warships and more likely employed in special forces or limited operations scenarios in rapid reaction 'fight as you are', so many or most in BD and heavy PG/MG gear.

Bearing in mind that a HEAP RAM grenade is good for a penetration of 20-25cm of RHA (not unreasonable W.R.T. the capabilities of contemporary weapons) so up-armouring battle dress to be proof against this sort of kit is asking for a lot of handwavium.

Not really, there is a huge difference between materials tech after 4 TLs in lower TL ranges, and doesn't have to be purely armor-armor.

Starship armor goes through a revolution with 4x the protection per ton for instance, pretty reasonable to see something similar in personal armor.

I would suggest that you apply a penalty of (say) -2 against targets smaller than a vehicle (for direct hits) to balance out RAM grenades against BD.

Note that this does mean that Battle Dress is not all-powerful and needs to be defended, just like any other armoured vehicle. Even with the heavy armour, the concussion from a decent-sized HE round would still be a serious threat.

Well, now that I'm considering all the camo/chameleon and evasion (greater stats should allow for greater movement and therefore evade mods not to mention grav belts), could be BD is good enough to survive artillery fragments and fusion gun splash and otherwise concentrates on not getting hit.

 

[kilemall]

[FONT=arial,helvetica]In that case you use this:

Personal Defensive Intercept System TL-12+

Hydra™ PDIS is a personal point defense weapon system that is designed to intercept incoming solid projectiles and either destroy or deflect them before they impact the target. The system consists of one, or several, laser “studs” that fire on the incoming projectile when the scanning unit detects it. A slower moving relatively light projectile is more likely to be successfully destroyed than a faster moving solid projectile.[/FONT]

Is that IYTU or something published?

 

[kilemall]

As a caveat to this subject: at the risk of violating some rule on the boards I'll state this quick word and drop the specific subject, but it is pertinent to the topic. I promise.

With regards to Afghanistan, the variables as to the whys and hows of the indigenous forces being able to stand up to and defeat technologically superior forces invading the country are many, and the most important ones have nothing to do with superior armor or weapons, but with supply lines, living off the land, fighting on your home turf, poor rules of engagement, and lack of political will to use the full capabilities of those technologies available. Take those mitigating and supremely important limitations away and yeah, now you have the locals at lower TL's losing to the higher TL.

I would hope we are all big boys and girls that can stand off from politically sensitive trouble topics while dispassionately discussing the operational and tactical elements that can be informative to our game material.

I would agree entirely with your statements, it wasn't a hard and fast comparison, merely that due to similar logistical and/or political/ROE constraints forces in Battle Dress could be in similar non-combined arms deployment.

Because the tech may be fantastically advanced but the monkeys in and out of the suit are the same.

Back to Striker and the "everything works as advertised every time wargame situation". In Striker, you have to factor in morale, communications, tactics, leadership and troop quality (training), and establish rules of engagement through pre-set orders for units. Supply and communications are inseparable from the combat rules.

But, if you remove all that, and weight the scenario against the superior forces, then the low tech units will do a lot of damage. Make the scenario and all-things-equal one and the higher tech forces will win very quickly.

Well, here is the thing- everyone has learned, from Vietnam and Grozny and Desert Storm if nothing else, that one does not place oneself in the way of a full combined arms hammer.

By way of a recent example, we have Hezbollah popping up in close fighting position negating the range and firepower advantages of the Israeli army- exactly the sort of thing an indigent TL8 RAM GL force would need to do. Iwo Jima tunnels come to mind as well.

So when we discuss the relative merits of combined arms vs. infantry only, why would it be like that? RAM Grenades killing BD - yes, why not? But with the superior technology in suits for vision, targeting, and movement, how would a guy with essentially an RPG get close enough to use it? And if they have the weapons, why wouldn't the infantry use them? What ROE restricts that?

I would postulate that the BD suits have more camo/chameleon advantage over TL8 forces, but against CA equipped forces at a similar TL and camo, equipped with Gauss/RAM GL, not so much.

BD suits really need those grav belts for maneuver advantage. Oh wait, the CA guys can too.

When I design weapons and armor I take all that into account, which is why, yes, my BD designs are not just for increased strength to carry armor but to also carry weapons designed for use by the BD wearer. BD as force multiplier, not just protection. SO I consider the threats - realistically. And realistically, if yo add so much protection the suit is now effectively a drone AFV why not just make the drone then?

Because drones can be jammed and the man on the ground can make moves or decisions Mr. Remote Ops guy isn't going to see.

Realistically, though, the stuff won't keep out things like RAM Grenades and guns firing small blobs of fusing plasma reactions. Maybe it won't always kill the wearer, but there is always an easier way to make weapons that can penetrate superior armor than the other way around - so a version of the old tank calculus of mobility vs. protection vs. offensive capability has to be modeled to make it work realistically. And within the limitations of supply, comms, command, ROE, training, and those other 'boring' but crucial details.

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. I'm not looking at this through the lens of Mr. Power Up gamer, I'm looking at it through biggest bang for the buck and what it would take to win with an expeditionary force and conversely defeat it with the local stuff.

Just seems to me the BD stuff is oriented more towards a 'flak jacket' anti-flechette/frag role and not really able to protect much more past that point, which makes them questionable for the money without upping them somewhere between your levels and mine.

Don't know that I agree with the armor statement either. Plenty of points at which armor beat penetrating weapons- turtle boats, ironclads that necessitated ramships, the heavy tanks of WWII, cataphractoi against asian bows, etc. etc.

 

[sabredog]

Is that IYTU or something published?

'tis all mine.

 

[atpollard]

To chime in on Armor vs Penetration, was Armor ever able to maintain that advantage for even a decade?

Cannonballs could not penetrate the iron plating of an ironclad, but shells with hardened tips were soon able to (1867).

I have no knowledge on WW2 heavy tanks, but strongly suspect a similarly short lived armor dominance.

 

[sabredog]

By way of a recent example, we have Hezbollah popping up in close fighting position negating the range and firepower advantages of the Israeli army- exactly the sort of thing an indigent TL8 RAM GL force would need to do. Iwo Jima tunnels come to mind as well.

Currently the Israeli army doesn't have deep ground penetrating radar, meson sensors, or anything else that can give them an accurate picture of the underground areas. By TL-13 I would imagine such things exist, and tunneling around is only going to lock you into a deathtrap. As you keep going back to: mobility is key to survival on the high tech battlefield.

BD suits really need those grav belts for maneuver advantage. Oh wait, the CA guys can too.

Yes, and no.

Even now, if it can be seen it can be killed. Flying around above ground cover and concealment negates about the only real advantage infantry will have on a battlefield that has meson guns shooting through mountains, pulse lasers and rapid-pulse high energy weapons knocking out pretty much any projectiles and missiles larger than .50 caliber, and collapsing round-firing autocannon. From orbit you have missile and meson gun ortillery that can hit within minute-of-bad-guy, and drone close air support and armor flying at supersonic speeds with speed-of-light weapons requiring no lead, windage, and hit anything in the line of sight to the effective horizon.

Grav assist can help the infantry move over broken terrain, water, and make very short hops up and down elevations but it would be suicide to just make yourself a drone and dart about at NOE or higher. BD is no match for a 50MW RP Fusion Gun or even a VRFGG hooked up to point defense fire control and drone circling around. A missile using target memory guidance and left to be triggered by flying infantry will be dangerous as area denial weapons and if equipped with grav mobility and speed intercept them with ease.

No, infantry needs to stay infantry and not try to be minitanks or drones buzzing about.

Because drones can be jammed and the man on the ground can make moves or decisions Mr. Remote Ops guy isn't going to see.

Perhaps. If the drone is linked to a meson communications system, which by TL-13 it probably will be, jamming that is highly problematic. Likewise, drones released by low orbital surveillance and ortillery support craft (the high tech equivalent of Spooky) will by guided by the crews from there with powerful signals and serious counter-battery/jamming gear of their own to quickly eliminate any interference.

Drones can, and should, be programmed to be guided and used by the troops on the schwerpunkt so they can quickly retask them as the situation changes. No "remote" operator is required...only the guys in the unit on the front shooting at the enemy. Such drones will be like tasked artillery is today.

Semi-autonomous drones running without operator guidance will be able to determine from IFF signals in the BD who to attack and not when not being manually directed. Drones armed with high energy RP weapons will not need to be any closer than several kilometers from the target and capable of popup firing from NOE - just as helicopters do now. That and mass driver indirect fire from drones will make them extremely difficult to impossible to counter by lower TL forces.

Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics. I'm not looking at this through the lens of Mr. Power Up gamer, I'm looking at it through biggest bang for the buck and what it would take to win with an expeditionary force and conversely defeat it with the local stuff.

Yes, but you keep going for tactics and assuming the military of the future will be stupid enough to not use everything they have to achieve their goals. Or that when weapons are designed they will not make the best they can or something.

Once we enter the realm of active orbital support, BD-equipped troops with high energy sidearms, man-portable nuclear (and non) tact missiles with fire & forget homing on even infantry targets, and meson artillery for fire support we leave behind the romantic notions of some daring indig insurgency defeating some future invasion. It just wouldn't work without a lot of artificial rules to tilt the balance.

If we remove the proscription against nukes then we can use those with near impunity so long as nuclear dampers (as described in Striker) are on site for decontamination. Or just use mass driver from low orbital fire support for the same effect.

Just seems to me the BD stuff is oriented more towards a 'flak jacket' anti-flechette/frag role and not really able to protect much more past that point, which makes them questionable for the money without upping them somewhere between your levels and mine.

Yes, now you're getting it. BD is powered to allow the trooper to carry more armor protection (but it won't stop fusion guns or other same-TL weaponry any better than armor today does so - but it might make anything less than a direct hit survivable, and protect you from all that artillery - which is the main killer on any battlefield). The powered suit also means you can carry more, and heavier weapons, making the suit a force multiplier. You can carry more supplies instead of having to have a vehicle with you all the time, so you can fight longer. You can be protected from NBC hazards - a very real danger on battlefields dominated by meson guns, nuclear weapons (including collapsing rounds), and the traditional poor-man's weapons of mass destruction: chemical and biological weapons.

So it has it's place, but not as some sort of walking tank - except to the alien Gunga Din with a space-jazail.

Don't know that I agree with the armor statement either. Plenty of points at which armor beat penetrating weapons- turtle boats, ironclads that necessitated ramships, the heavy tanks of WWII, cataphractoi against asian bows, etc. etc.

Historically, any of those armor advantages you cite only really held for a very short time because it is always easier to make a bigger bomb or gun than to armor something so effectively to stop it. Contemporary bows and crossbows defeated cataphracts and knights, as did advances in longarms. Gunpowder weapons defeated them all.

Ramships? Assuming you mean the brief fascination with torpedo rams - those were a failure because they couldn't be armored themselves or they couldn't out out-maneuver the gun-firing ironclads. But regular guns defeated ironclads, too.

Tanks - bigger guns, tank breaker rockets, guided missiles. Tanks still exist only because they allow for maneuver warfare until we have something better, and helicopters and drones are getting there fast. Besides, lighter armored wheeled vehicles seem all the rage right now, even in Europe so I think the military is swinging back towards mobility at the price of armor because weapons pretty much kill anything right now.

Heck, Bradley IFV's and the like have been launched 10 feet in the air by IED's so you can't tell me a bigger bomb is always there to defeat any armor. The thing weapons engineers and military experts look for is that balance I spoke of, weighted to the mission of the weapon system, of protection vs. firepower vs. mobility.

Barring magic grav-modules the more armor and bigger weapons you put on something (a man in BD or vehicle) means it moves slower, and so on. You have to decide if mobility = armor in some cases (and it does), and if having a smaller gun that still does the job albeit at shorter range is better than a bigger gun that hits farther out but less often maybe? If so, then you can add more mobility and/or armor.

 

[mike wightman]

BD troops can carry the RAM auto GL as a sidearm...

 

[sabredog]

IMTU BD standard equipment includes a RAM GL on the left forearm that uses 3-rd magazines, 6 of which are stored on the suit. The right forearm piece has an integral laser rifle for close-in work, target designation, and garrison or similar duty where an FGMP probably won't be required or desired.

The FGMP-14 is the usual small arm being that it can only be used with a BD suit so if captured by an enemy without the same suits it can't be used against the troops. The suit can also be equipped with an over-the-shoulder pull-down rack of two 10cm tac missiles, usually target memory fire/forget.

The suit also has grav-assist for faster movement while running (the "Battlesuit Slide" is what the skating-like motion is called, especially impressive when done in formation) and for reducing ground pressure to avoid mines, sensors, and soft ground. The grav-assist system essentially reduces the trooper's mass to just above neutral "buoyancy", adjusting either manually or automatically.

The suit has gyro-stabilization the trooper tumbled by shockwaves can recover quicker (especially important when using the grav assist), and when combined with a zero-G thruster pack helps tremendously with zero-G combat maneuvers. The suit also has Hydra laser active intercept for incoming projectiles, active camo-film, and at TL-15 the camo-film also has a nano surface that mimics to a certain extent some textures like an octopus skin. This works when the trooper is still to allow for better blending with the terrain around him - supplementing the IR-masking chill cans and electronic countermeasures in the suit.

Suits are limited in size to allow for the trooper to at least walk through a doorway even if he completely fills it while doing so, can walk down a standard ship corridor, and ride inside the average grav carrier. When equipped with a full combat load the trooper will be awkward in such conditions, and you wouldn't want one walking around a china shop, but under those conditions the trooper is also likely to be on specialized transports anyway.

Still, they need to be able to negotiate the same areas anyone else can or most of the fleet and mech infantry vehicles would be worthless for transporting the average trooper. Tank and IFV crews wear combat armor IMTU, though, for better ease of motion while inside a cramped vehicle for long periods - and combat is easier to take off and put on without any supporting frame or charging system so it's a better fit for those guys.

Medical support for the wearer includes a medcomp with auto-injectors loaded with NoShok, Anti-Rad, assorted medical drugs, and MetaBrake. The last one puts the trooper into a similar state to cold sleep for a short time to allow battlefield recovery drones (called Nightingales) that home in on the suit's rescue beacon to pick up the trooper and bring him in to a casualty clearing station.

The suit is self-sealing (within reasonable limits), has automatic tourniquets, and razored iris valves in the extremities if those are breached beyond the capabilities of the sealing solution and patient trauma. This may seem extreme but these suits get used in any atmosphere, NBC battlefields, and in space. Besides, the arm or leg can get regrown so better to lose on temporarily than die of explosive decompression or a nasty nerve gas.

Visual aids include a 360 degree VR environment that allows the wearer to look around as if he wasn't wearing a helmet at all. It has vision magnification, thermal, IR, and LI assist, radar scanning, and laser targeting. Tightbeam comms using laser or meson communications are supplemented with datalinking to tactical satellites (deployed by the troops or low-orbital support craft), and tactical drone control. Maps and data are overlaid on the VR environment to display IFF targeting cues. Other data is available through the command structure depending on the trooper's rank and mission so as to prevent info overload.

The suits also include the latest in music sound systems, but that tends to be a DIY thing. The troops love it and it scares the heck out of the Bugs.

 

[sabredog]

I'm working a thread in another subforum called Active Battle Dress, with the design goal of a near man-sized suit (1 ton or less so it can be fired from a jump tube) that can fly around like the ABD of StarSoldier, in Striker form, with grav generators.

I'm using the mini-fusion plants from the Robots book, which are highly compliant with Striker terms and performance (the smaller you go the worse the per m³ production).

Already ran into serious weight issues even with upgraded TL multipliers, going to have to slim it down, make it smaller, make the sides more vulnerable and have less geegaws/more battery power for max fighting/maneuver time.

Another option is a armor 20 shield the BD carries, but advances with it angled so the armor is effectively 40. Haven't worked out the weight yet, so it may not be viable. Needs to come in 20kg or less.

BD guys may actually have to go to ancient infantry formations to survive assaults in the absence of combined arms support.

I still have Starsoldier! It's Sniper with lasers and so clunky, but I liked it when it came out back in the day. Especially when paired with Starforce so you could game the boarding parties and ground assaults after duking it out with your ships.

Re: the fusion plants - I think rechargeable power would be more robust and safer for a battlefield. The power packs are solid state and by TL-13 ought to last for two or three days. Or maybe the same power supply as the FGMP is using can do double duty, though IMTU those things don't use some little magic powerplant with an unending round count. That's a bit much IMHO.

>>>> Have you tried Fire, Fusion, and Steel for designing armor and power supplies for it? It can be exhausting to use the formulas but if you're into that sort of detail (I prefer "Ref Fiat" moderated by reasonableness and powered by imagination times the Rule Of Cool) the system has a lot to offer.

The shield idea I like, but from personal experience have discarded it myself as something to hang the soldier's arm all day in battle. Even in BD it wouldn't be so much as heavy as really awkward when using a gun requiring two hands. And they would reduce his peripheral vision to the off-side where the shield was. BUT.. like when I used one for dynamic entry or even when confronting a nut with a knife, they do work really well in limited circumstances and I rarely left the SO without one in my trunk. Smacking a crazy guy with it while pushing him to the ground worked great.

Maybe the shield should be something that folds up into 3rds along the axis of the trooper's arm? That way when it isn't used it is still a bit awkward, but at least it isn't banging into things and getting in the way when kneeling or going prone - let alone when using the FGMP or missile launcher.

You can use the cover rules in Striker for determining how much protection it provides - maybe a saving roll kind of mechanic to see if the shield catches the incoming round might work for you. IMTU a shield works that way - if you are hit and roll a 9+ on 2D6 the shield stops the hit. I figure between the shield and the armor pretty much anything short of a heavy weapon is going to be stopped (FGMP's are heavy weapons). Battle Dress skill is used as a positive DM for this roll.

 

[sabredog]

To chime in on Armor vs Penetration, was Armor ever able to maintain that advantage for even a decade?

Often not even that. That particular arms race accelerates to light speed every time there is a conflict. Just look at the evolution going on in the Middle East and during WWII.

I have no knowledge on WW2 heavy tanks, but strongly suspect a similarly short lived armor dominance.

Oh yes, even more so because the tactics and even the concept of how to use tanks was new and evolving then. Even what a tank should be changed rapidly from the specialized designs of the early part of the war (infantry tank, cruiser, support, heavy, medium, light, scout....) to the final Main Battle Tank concept at the end that is what has been the model ever since. In WWII tanks weren't meant, for the most part, to even fight other tanks but to support infantry assaults. That's because everyone always prepares to fight the last war and that's what tanks were used for then.

The development of Panzerfausts, RPG's, recoilless rifles, Bazookas of various types all spurred designers to try to figure out how to add armor to protect against shaped charges as well as solid shot because suddenly a thick slab of hard steel wasn't enough.

Today we see the same thing with better ATGM's with two-stage warheads for defeating advanced composite armor and ERA, and depleted uraniuim penetrators that drill through nearly anything. SO designers have started bricking up tanks with ERA that is non-explosive and shifts on impact to deflect penetrators, and laser interceptor dazzler systems to spoof missiles. M-1's and T-90's have depleted uranium panels, too, but that is so heavy it can only be added to small areas or it slows the tank too much.

The Israelis are now using concrete slabs to up-armor some of their smaller tanks to help against RPG's, and the coming-soon new Leopard 3 is rumored to have some zoomy new countermeasures for spoofing missiles.

Today we are in kind of the age (again) of The ATGM, made even deadlier still because even handheld ones have self-forging or HEAP warheads that pop-up and attack the deck armor of a tank, and the bigger ones have warheads that will kill pretty much any tank. That ATGM's are now launched off of drones makes it even worse since the bigger ones also hit the deck armor that way.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Often not even that. That particular arms race accelerates to light speed every time there is a conflict. Just look at the evolution going on in the Middle East and during WWII.




Oh yes, even more so because the tactics and even the concept of how to use tanks was new and evolving then. Even what a tank should be changed rapidly from the specialized designs of the early part of the war (infantry tank, cruiser, support, heavy, medium, light, scout....) to the final Main Battle Tank concept at the end that is what has been the model ever since. In WWII tanks weren't meant, for the most part, to even fight other tanks but to support infantry assaults. That's because everyone always prepares to fight the last war and that's what tanks were used for then.

The development of Panzerfausts, RPG's, recoilless rifles, Bazookas of various types all spurred designers to try to figure out how to add armor to protect against shaped charges as well as solid shot because suddenly a thick slab of hard steel wasn't enough.

Today we see the same thing with better ATGM's with two-stage warheads for defeating advanced composite armor and ERA, and depleted uraniuim penetrators that drill through nearly anything. SO designers have started bricking up tanks with ERA that is non-explosive and shifts on impact to deflect penetrators, and laser interceptor dazzler systems to spoof missiles. M-1's and T-90's have depleted uranium panels, too, but that is so heavy it can only be added to small areas or it slows the tank too much.

The Israelis are now using concrete slabs to up-armor some of their smaller tanks to help against RPG's, and the coming-soon new Leopard 3 is rumored to have some zoomy new countermeasures for spoofing missiles.

Today we are in kind of the age (again) of The ATGM, made even deadlier still because even handheld ones have self-forging or HEAP warheads that pop-up and attack the deck armor of a tank, and the bigger ones have warheads that will kill pretty much any tank. That ATGM's are now launched off of drones makes it even worse since the bigger ones also hit the deck armor that way.

The Javelin is a top down killer of AFV's

 

[kilemall]

Did a design study using Traveller armor for a man-sized coverage, with the intent of assuming the typical BD stats amplification could instead be used to carry more armor, just as a within the system means of working out within 'known' limits of what the suit form factor can carry (at least 90kg more given the Striker encumbrance limit).

Problem is the armor comes in at 150kg, which could work for BD but means the Combat Armor guys are weighed down with something they can't move in.

So, we can say pretty readily that whatever material CA and by extension BD is made of, it's 10x more effective per kg then starship and gravtank armor.

The cost value is in line with that, I think the CA/BD using Striker armor works out to just 1000s, so 10x value would be in line, with the additional cost of BD in all the amplified power, electronics, power, comms, etc. etc.

But it IS a discrepancy, and I'd like to work out how that can happen without stretching things too much.

Going to throw this into the mix from another thread as it is clearly a CT player take on the equipment making gig- the reduced BD cost makes it a more palatable upgrade path then the game default one (my main issue irregardless of how people are choosing to interpret my posts).

It also has a lovely bit with rigid armor vs. flexible, and lets CT guys get GunMaker fun without going all T5, although I would gather the armor resolution is very MgT.

http://crucible.cc/traveller/docs/armoryandordinance.pdf


I'll be back to answer the critiques, but this should be enough to chew on for the moment.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Did a design study using Traveller armor for a man-sized coverage, with the intent of assuming the typical BD stats amplification could instead be used to carry more armor, just as a within the system means of working out within 'known' limits of what the suit form factor can carry (at least 90kg more given the Striker encumbrance limit).

Problem is the armor comes in at 150kg, which could work for BD but means the Combat Armor guys are weighed down with something they can't move in.

So, we can say pretty readily that whatever material CA and by extension BD is made of, it's 10x more effective per kg then starship and gravtank armor.

The cost value is in line with that, I think the CA/BD using Striker armor works out to just 1000s, so 10x value would be in line, with the additional cost of BD in all the amplified power, electronics, power, comms, etc. etc.

But it IS a discrepancy, and I'd like to work out how that can happen without stretching things too much.

Going to throw this into the mix from another thread as it is clearly a CT player take on the equipment making gig- the reduced BD cost makes it a more palatable upgrade path then the game default one (my main issue irregardless of how people are choosing to interpret my posts).

It also has a lovely bit with rigid armor vs. flexible, and lets CT guys get GunMaker fun without going all T5, although I would gather the armor resolution is very MgT.

http://crucible.cc/traveller/docs/armoryandordinance.pdf


I'll be back to answer the critiques, but this should be enough to chew on for the moment.

Remember that combat armor ( listed in alien module 4 ):
1. Trooper Model (TL11) is 6kg at 20Kcr. (Hey that's lighter that the Helmet armor rig I had in the ghan!!!!)
2. The Guards Model is 4kg at TL 13 50Kcr

Interesting I need to run this through the Book 10 Matrix to see what the armor value is.

 

[whartung]

Troops running around in BD are not Tanks.

Cheap missiles (i.e. RAM grenades) may well be able to penetrate BD, but troops in BD aren't sauntering down the city street. Tanks in the street are sitting ducks to infantry launched tank missiles and grenades. Big, slow targets in the open ("open") areas.

BD troops are small, nimble, and moving from cover to cover. BD troops can fight house to house and room to room (not necessarily gracefully, but they can at least fit through the doors).

You also can not disregard the ammunition limitations. Missiles et al are big, bulky and cumbersome. Ammunition load out is small in contrast regular small arms, and, against BD, near misses essentially have no effect. So, each shot has to count. Telling your squad mate with the RPG to "cover me" as you go running may be good for setting up an opportunity shot, but it's not very good for just sending general fire down range to "keep their heads down".

Finally, the BD troops will be hunting softer targets, targets where area fire, fusion blobs, etc. are dangerous with larger kill radiuses than what's being hurled back at them.

A fire and forget guided platform can help a lot, make snapshots more accurate, but you're still shooting at a small, dodging target.

 

[kilemall]

Remember that combat armor ( listed in alien module 4 ):
1. Trooper Model (TL11) is 6kg at 20Kcr. (Hey that's lighter that the Helmet armor rig I had in the ghan!!!!)
2. The Guards Model is 4kg at TL 13 50Kcr

Interesting I need to run this through the Book 10 Matrix to see what the armor value is.

First weight items I've seen outside of MgT material, certainly none listed I could find in LBB1, LBB4 or Striker.

But is in line with my point that whatever it is, it's multiples of protection over what you can put on a starship or tank.

 

[kilemall]

Troops running around in BD are not Tanks.

Cheap missiles (i.e. RAM grenades) may well be able to penetrate BD, but troops in BD aren't sauntering down the city street. Tanks in the street are sitting ducks to infantry launched tank missiles and grenades. Big, slow targets in the open ("open") areas.

BD troops are small, nimble, and moving from cover to cover. BD troops can fight house to house and room to room (not necessarily gracefully, but they can at least fit through the doors).

You also can not disregard the ammunition limitations. Missiles et al are big, bulky and cumbersome. Ammunition load out is small in contrast regular small arms, and, against BD, near misses essentially have no effect. So, each shot has to count. Telling your squad mate with the RPG to "cover me" as you go running may be good for setting up an opportunity shot, but it's not very good for just sending general fire down range to "keep their heads down".

Finally, the BD troops will be hunting softer targets, targets where area fire, fusion blobs, etc. are dangerous with larger kill radiuses than what's being hurled back at them.

A fire and forget guided platform can help a lot, make snapshots more accurate, but you're still shooting at a small, dodging target.

At the cost ratio of outfitting RAM GL troops to BD, you can have a 10:1 kill ratio in favor of the BD troops and still lose them all pretty readily. It's longbows at Agincourt and the BD knights are much more likely to lose if they are not VERY careful about dealing with their limits against a prepared position with superior range, even with ammunition limits.

The dodgy part is NOT covered in LBB1 or Striker, you have to be really hauling to get movement mods past the miniscule cover/evade mods.

Should it be there? Yes.

Is it there? No.

Best you can do under the system is fast grav belts, go invisible one way or another so its recon by fire, jammers for larger sensors, PD for any physical round, or hitting any sensor platform so fast and hard that there are no eyes on your troops.

As for they aren't light tanks, no they aren't and I'm not even arguing they should be, that's what my ABD design study is for, but they certainly should be able to protect against man-portable weapons 4-7 TLs under them, in the same sense Cloth does not stop everything at it's TL but it certainly stops melee and most lower order slug throwers.

 

[sabredog]

Everyone keeps bringing up dodging and speed of such as if the troops are going to be zig-zagging around in the open. That's not what you do as infantry - or as anyone else for that matter if you have any training at all.

The strength of infantry is cover and concealment. That's what keeps you alive in a fight. Even if you have armor you don't just stand there and blaze away figuring the rounds will just bounce off your armor.

For body armor to be effective it has to have openings for joints, it can't cover every spot on the body. And there's always a bigger rifle (or even a small one depending on range and impact point) to blow through it, not to mention all the other hazards. And that's on today's battlefield.

In the future NOBODY can dodge a speed of light weapon like a laser or fusion gun so there won't be any dodging there. You need to be hugging the ground, have armor capable of allowing you to use cover and concealment - any rock or scrape will do sometimes. Move through areas crouched down. Heck, I've trained to use the curb of the street if needed for cover in a fight.

Dodging is relative to the enemy shooting at you and with what he is shooting at you with. Speed of movement is good, but flying will not be except in very limited circumstances. Flying will be suicidal.

 

[mike wightman]

Check the rules in Striker for anti-laser aerosols - most lasers are going to be useless if your BD has an aerosol dispenser.