kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Thanks for the tip, I'm pretty happy with this one as it involves just a couple tweaks and the rest of the material can stay as is.
Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage
- Thread starter kilemall
- Start date
Thanks for the tip, I'm pretty happy with this one as it involves just a couple tweaks and the rest of the material can stay as is.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Now then, to the armor business.
The 'future history' of the interaction of man-portable weaponry to personal armor in Striker is a curious one.
It swings
* to some fairly serious lethality from the TL6 slug throwers
* to Cloth shutting down most Death results at TL7 and ironically making the Snub Pistol/HEAP round, the LAG and the RAM GLs the TL8 go-to penetrators
* to the very dangerous Laser Rifle at close range TL9
* to Reflec swinging the cost effective wound rifle results back to the TL10 ACR
* to the TL 11-12 Age of Protection with Combat Armor that stops most man-portable weapons lethality cold
* to TL 13+ plasma/fusion weapons that thanks to both the penetrator and energy weapons rules guarantee death if they hit (only determining if entire walls of concrete/hillside will possibly afford survival)
* and throughout, the RAM GL reigning supreme as the cheap guaranteed death weapon, outranging most of the PGMP/FGMP weapons when considering retained penetration at range.
I don't know that I want a nice consistent sliding scale to any of this, most of this 'feels' right in that technology and associated weaponry has not marched consistently but zig-zags.
And a lot of this is clearly intended to enshrine how the Mercenary Book 4 weapons work, especially the 'near absolute certain you are dead in one shot of 8D' and 'you are deaderer from one shot of 10D+' weapons.
But the problem for me is that the interaction of lethality to armor DOES change more or less permanently to weapons over armor with the advent of the RAM GL.
I don't have a problem with it's values per se. They are modeling all those ranges of AT weapons using HEAT that starts with the bazookas and fausts on through the RPG series to more advanced versions.
And certainly a battle dress equipped trooper with a plasma gun qualifies as a light tank.
But the mechanic ends up making a mockery of all that tech advance and expense, when the technical equivalent of a rock will do the same job. Might as well stick with much cheaper CES for all the good advanced armor does.
The 'future history' of the interaction of man-portable weaponry to personal armor in Striker is a curious one.
It swings
* to some fairly serious lethality from the TL6 slug throwers
* to Cloth shutting down most Death results at TL7 and ironically making the Snub Pistol/HEAP round, the LAG and the RAM GLs the TL8 go-to penetrators
* to the very dangerous Laser Rifle at close range TL9
* to Reflec swinging the cost effective wound rifle results back to the TL10 ACR
* to the TL 11-12 Age of Protection with Combat Armor that stops most man-portable weapons lethality cold
* to TL 13+ plasma/fusion weapons that thanks to both the penetrator and energy weapons rules guarantee death if they hit (only determining if entire walls of concrete/hillside will possibly afford survival)
* and throughout, the RAM GL reigning supreme as the cheap guaranteed death weapon, outranging most of the PGMP/FGMP weapons when considering retained penetration at range.
I don't know that I want a nice consistent sliding scale to any of this, most of this 'feels' right in that technology and associated weaponry has not marched consistently but zig-zags.
And a lot of this is clearly intended to enshrine how the Mercenary Book 4 weapons work, especially the 'near absolute certain you are dead in one shot of 8D' and 'you are deaderer from one shot of 10D+' weapons.
But the problem for me is that the interaction of lethality to armor DOES change more or less permanently to weapons over armor with the advent of the RAM GL.
I don't have a problem with it's values per se. They are modeling all those ranges of AT weapons using HEAT that starts with the bazookas and fausts on through the RPG series to more advanced versions.
And certainly a battle dress equipped trooper with a plasma gun qualifies as a light tank.
But the mechanic ends up making a mockery of all that tech advance and expense, when the technical equivalent of a rock will do the same job. Might as well stick with much cheaper CES for all the good advanced armor does.
Well, that sort of ties in to Pournelle's CoDominium, where the troopers basically carry completely mechanical sliver rifles. A simple, high capacity, "unjammable" weapon. And perhaps since all the armor is a complete pain to romp around in, better to just forgo it completely and use the simple rifles. Gonna get killed anyway, may as well be comfortable.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Now integrated laser/gauss PD/CIWS to shoot down the incoming RAM GL would certainly help matters and make the BD feel more like powered armor. Not standard, but it should be, and I'm likely to fit at least 50% of any BD force as such- too bad about the poor CA guys huh.
Still, I'd like the BD to mean something beyond being a packhorse/lifter tool with armor that just keeps the low-end weapons out, that special 'oh hell no' moment when you realize you are up against the Big Dogs.
A few ways to go here.
One could postulate a focused repulsor ala Iron Man as a man-portable version of the HG ship repulsor or the Dune shields, minus the atomic explosion hazard. A bit gimmicky, but would be good for upping the armor quotient against RAM GLs, disrupting plasma streams and deflecting normal slug throwers and VRF Gauss fire, while allowing for lasers to make a niche comeback.
Have to wonder about action/reaction, or at least incoming rounds 'pushing' against the repulsor and thus sending the soldier tumbling.
Would need a detection system for threats to focus on, and thus should increase signature from sonar/radar/lidar or whatever active sensor is looking for incoming, because I'm assuming such a narrow focused repulsion beam is going to cost more energy then a regular lifter and thus you would not leave it on all the time.
Mongoose Traveller has a form of armor called the Plasma Conduit, basically using the plasma/fusion control technology inherent in the mini-fusion plants and MP guns to bleed off the penetrating edge of the kinetic effect of energy bolts, sort of the Reflec for PGMPs.
That's attractive, if you can form a controlled bolt in a chamber and fire it, you should be able to manipulate it at the receiving end. Should be expensive though as you are spreading that chamber tech over a much larger surface then in the gun, at least double the BD suit cost, and likely a lot more.
Double the base armor for RAM GL/PG-FGMPs, no effect for anything else.
One lower tech solution to both RAM GLs and the plasma/fusion guns might be the Ablat of the plasma penetrator world, PRA or Personal Reactive Armor.
That's right, reactive armor like on tanks, mounted over your regular armor and set to trigger plates of explosives to disrupt incoming plasma streams, which ultimately are higher tech versions of the same plasma jet coming from AT missile warheads.
Could be the low-tech low energy solution for Combat Armor wearers.
Signature increase from active detection should be minimal but there since the reactive plate needs to be firing so it can disrupt the bolt, but require a shorter detection range with rapid explosives.
I'd probably add 10 to armor value, with the value dropping 1 per hit like Ablat, plasma jet or otherwise. But of course MUCH more expensive to replace.
I've been working the BD shield, literally a physical Striker armor shield the BD soldier carries around like a knight, and it just occurred to me that the whole shield should be angled, increasing protection.
The problem is, any decent increase in protection comes at the 50-70 kg boundary or better re: weight, which is just too much. The lightest is .25 cm at 56 kg, anything lighter is likely too small to be considered real protection.
Which rather points out again that whatever CA/BD is made of, it's better, lighter and more expensive per square meter then Striker armor.
Still, I'd like the BD to mean something beyond being a packhorse/lifter tool with armor that just keeps the low-end weapons out, that special 'oh hell no' moment when you realize you are up against the Big Dogs.
A few ways to go here.
One could postulate a focused repulsor ala Iron Man as a man-portable version of the HG ship repulsor or the Dune shields, minus the atomic explosion hazard. A bit gimmicky, but would be good for upping the armor quotient against RAM GLs, disrupting plasma streams and deflecting normal slug throwers and VRF Gauss fire, while allowing for lasers to make a niche comeback.
Have to wonder about action/reaction, or at least incoming rounds 'pushing' against the repulsor and thus sending the soldier tumbling.
Would need a detection system for threats to focus on, and thus should increase signature from sonar/radar/lidar or whatever active sensor is looking for incoming, because I'm assuming such a narrow focused repulsion beam is going to cost more energy then a regular lifter and thus you would not leave it on all the time.
Mongoose Traveller has a form of armor called the Plasma Conduit, basically using the plasma/fusion control technology inherent in the mini-fusion plants and MP guns to bleed off the penetrating edge of the kinetic effect of energy bolts, sort of the Reflec for PGMPs.
That's attractive, if you can form a controlled bolt in a chamber and fire it, you should be able to manipulate it at the receiving end. Should be expensive though as you are spreading that chamber tech over a much larger surface then in the gun, at least double the BD suit cost, and likely a lot more.
Double the base armor for RAM GL/PG-FGMPs, no effect for anything else.
One lower tech solution to both RAM GLs and the plasma/fusion guns might be the Ablat of the plasma penetrator world, PRA or Personal Reactive Armor.
That's right, reactive armor like on tanks, mounted over your regular armor and set to trigger plates of explosives to disrupt incoming plasma streams, which ultimately are higher tech versions of the same plasma jet coming from AT missile warheads.
Could be the low-tech low energy solution for Combat Armor wearers.
Signature increase from active detection should be minimal but there since the reactive plate needs to be firing so it can disrupt the bolt, but require a shorter detection range with rapid explosives.
I'd probably add 10 to armor value, with the value dropping 1 per hit like Ablat, plasma jet or otherwise. But of course MUCH more expensive to replace.
I've been working the BD shield, literally a physical Striker armor shield the BD soldier carries around like a knight, and it just occurred to me that the whole shield should be angled, increasing protection.
The problem is, any decent increase in protection comes at the 50-70 kg boundary or better re: weight, which is just too much. The lightest is .25 cm at 56 kg, anything lighter is likely too small to be considered real protection.
Which rather points out again that whatever CA/BD is made of, it's better, lighter and more expensive per square meter then Striker armor.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, but artillery and all those horrible flechette weapons still suggests there is value to protection from the low end penetrators.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
So, probably the simplest solution set would be taking a cue from the armory book and going rigid armor, or specifically Rigid Battle Dress.
This would involve wrapping an extra set of Combat Armor over the BD suit- using the Striker two levels of armor system, having an extra equivalent layer would yield a +8 to the armor factor.
I'd charge as per the CA suit costs, so TL13 RBD comes up 230000 Cr with armor value 18, and TL14 RBD as 410000 Cr with armor value 26.
Also, the rigidity means the character does not have natural movement and so -1 Dexterity and an extra weight burden of 10kg counts against the BD carry weight. Endurance benefits are not impacted.
The extra weight and encumbrance is why Rigid Combat Armor is not normally used, although a few forces have indulged- for RCA, double the cost of CA and apply the above effects.
This doesn't make RBD or RCA supersuits, but they do allow for specialized assault troops to have a better chance, protects against plasma/fusion guns at long range or more, and at least forces an opponent to use higher tech RAM GLs to get autokills.
This would involve wrapping an extra set of Combat Armor over the BD suit- using the Striker two levels of armor system, having an extra equivalent layer would yield a +8 to the armor factor.
I'd charge as per the CA suit costs, so TL13 RBD comes up 230000 Cr with armor value 18, and TL14 RBD as 410000 Cr with armor value 26.
Also, the rigidity means the character does not have natural movement and so -1 Dexterity and an extra weight burden of 10kg counts against the BD carry weight. Endurance benefits are not impacted.
The extra weight and encumbrance is why Rigid Combat Armor is not normally used, although a few forces have indulged- for RCA, double the cost of CA and apply the above effects.
This doesn't make RBD or RCA supersuits, but they do allow for specialized assault troops to have a better chance, protects against plasma/fusion guns at long range or more, and at least forces an opponent to use higher tech RAM GLs to get autokills.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I recall the rifles firing six millimetre slugs.
Dickson's Childe Cycle had slivers, two thousand per magazine I believe.
Dickson's Childe Cycle had slivers, two thousand per magazine I believe.
I could be easily conflating the two, for sure.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
From the OTU thread- end up working out how the laser formula works, uncover an ancient typo/proofread/adjustment to lasers. Good practice for doing the same to slugs.
On the 10-shot cartridges, 50% if disposable.
_____________________________________________________
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Using the backpack weight instead as the determinant of battery capacity, I get
T8 LC 75 kw input, 3.75 mws backpack, 750 kws cartridge
T9 LR 90 kw input, 9 mws backpack, 900 kws cartridge
T9 LP 45 kw input, 2.25 mws backpack, 450 kws cartridge
T13 LC 100 kw input, 10 mws backpack, 1 mws cartridge
T14 LR 300 kw input, 60 mws backpack, 6 mws cartridge
T14 LP 75 kw input, 15 mws backpack, 1.05 mws cartridge
This works out to 6000 Cr for the high tech carbine pack, 20,000 Cr for the LR pack and 5000 Cr for the LP pack, seems more in line with the established cost structure.
The penetration values work PERFECTLY if you use the laser penetration table for ratios of penetration as divisors re: range for everything T8-13 until the T14 equipment, assuming beam lasers.
However, the T14 LR/LP go off the rails, delivering much less then they 'should'.
I think the reason is that if you go through the whole way, the TL14 LR ends up being better then FGMPs!
Given a 300 kw input, the LR should be delivering a penetration set of 36/18/6-5. The LP should be delivering 9/4/2, which means with a 10-shot cartridge costing 350 Cr, every happy boy is going to want this as their sidearm.
Given the startling consistency in 4 of the 6 lasers, I'm going to assume that the designer ran into his own gun design trap, changed some values, but didn't get it proofread all the way and a mishmash made it to print. Whatta mess.
The pen values are not even consistent ratio between each other. Let's throw the whole thing out and get in the design intent without going crazy.
So let's drop the T14 LR pack to 2.5 kg and the T14 LP pack to .5 kg, that goes with the rest of the Striker better/lighter/cheaper mix most upgrades tend to.
That gives us
T14 LR 187 kw input, 37.5 mws backpack, 1.87 mws cartridge
T14 LP 50 kw input, 10 mws backpack, 500 kws cartridge
That yields us backpack costs of 12500 Cr/2500 Cr, 10-shot cartridges at 625 Cr/ 125 Cr each, and penetration of 22/11/5 and 6/3/1 respectively (perfect match on the LP).
MUCH much better, cheaper, closer to usable without overpowering.
[/FONT]
On the 10-shot cartridges, 50% if disposable.
_____________________________________________________
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Using the backpack weight instead as the determinant of battery capacity, I get
T8 LC 75 kw input, 3.75 mws backpack, 750 kws cartridge
T9 LR 90 kw input, 9 mws backpack, 900 kws cartridge
T9 LP 45 kw input, 2.25 mws backpack, 450 kws cartridge
T13 LC 100 kw input, 10 mws backpack, 1 mws cartridge
T14 LR 300 kw input, 60 mws backpack, 6 mws cartridge
T14 LP 75 kw input, 15 mws backpack, 1.05 mws cartridge
This works out to 6000 Cr for the high tech carbine pack, 20,000 Cr for the LR pack and 5000 Cr for the LP pack, seems more in line with the established cost structure.
The penetration values work PERFECTLY if you use the laser penetration table for ratios of penetration as divisors re: range for everything T8-13 until the T14 equipment, assuming beam lasers.
However, the T14 LR/LP go off the rails, delivering much less then they 'should'.
I think the reason is that if you go through the whole way, the TL14 LR ends up being better then FGMPs!
Given a 300 kw input, the LR should be delivering a penetration set of 36/18/6-5. The LP should be delivering 9/4/2, which means with a 10-shot cartridge costing 350 Cr, every happy boy is going to want this as their sidearm.
Given the startling consistency in 4 of the 6 lasers, I'm going to assume that the designer ran into his own gun design trap, changed some values, but didn't get it proofread all the way and a mishmash made it to print. Whatta mess.
The pen values are not even consistent ratio between each other. Let's throw the whole thing out and get in the design intent without going crazy.
So let's drop the T14 LR pack to 2.5 kg and the T14 LP pack to .5 kg, that goes with the rest of the Striker better/lighter/cheaper mix most upgrades tend to.
That gives us
T14 LR 187 kw input, 37.5 mws backpack, 1.87 mws cartridge
T14 LP 50 kw input, 10 mws backpack, 500 kws cartridge
That yields us backpack costs of 12500 Cr/2500 Cr, 10-shot cartridges at 625 Cr/ 125 Cr each, and penetration of 22/11/5 and 6/3/1 respectively (perfect match on the LP).
MUCH much better, cheaper, closer to usable without overpowering.
[/FONT]
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Noted the laser ranges appear to match the laser gun build ratios, and so before embarking on slugs, I thought I would work through the lasers as sub-megawatt weapons through the main gun build system.
Primary goal is to get a weapon at X TL to achieve the penetration at effective range, so I worked out what would do that and worked backwards. Then I assumed the minimum fire control that would support extreme range.
One thing I ran into directly is that the beam lasers do not get the +2 in the table examples and have brutal power needs, so 1 lens pulse lasers look like a better fit to model the game's man-portable lasers.
One gets 4x the output assuming the man portable pack acts as the necessary battery power system and gets better multipliers anyway, so penetration per kg of power and weapon is much more doable.
I am going to assume the same backpack/battery/mWs since clearly they are set to be nice multiples and not too much of a burden. However, less shots then in the book since these weapons are on average taking more power to yield the same results.
TL8 Laser Carbine
To get 7 penetration at TL8 pulse lasers, that's 1.75 cm divided by 12- rounding up, 146 kw.
Full range/pen values are
29 (7) 58 (3) 292 (1)
Weight works out to 9.6 kg, heftier then the default, cost is 584 Cr. Add in the 'required' TL5 DFC to support a 250 range and that's 14.6 kg/1084 Cr, a really cheap weapon but effectively more like a crew served MG in size.
Hmmm, the range figures are about half all of those for the default book weapon, while the weapon costs 2.5x more. A tradeoff many weapon designers would take in a heartbeat, I wonder if it is consistent.
At 146 kw a pull, the backpack with 3.75 mWs can only support 25 shots (probably a lot more if one designs in a low power designation fire option).
So the book table standard design has twice the penetration efficiency per shot, but only half the range.
Maybe the working man-portable formula is Range x1/2/10, Penetration double output in megawatts, cost 2.5x?
That works out to 73 kw input which restores our 100 shots, brings the size down to 4.8 kg which rounds to the book value, range is 14.6/29.2/146, which rounding up a bit is also a perfect match with the book.
Looks like a winner. Have to try that out with the rest of the line.
Fun part now is one could design a light infantry MG version of the laser complete with pluses to hit, and a LAG anti-material/sniper version as well.
Primary goal is to get a weapon at X TL to achieve the penetration at effective range, so I worked out what would do that and worked backwards. Then I assumed the minimum fire control that would support extreme range.
One thing I ran into directly is that the beam lasers do not get the +2 in the table examples and have brutal power needs, so 1 lens pulse lasers look like a better fit to model the game's man-portable lasers.
One gets 4x the output assuming the man portable pack acts as the necessary battery power system and gets better multipliers anyway, so penetration per kg of power and weapon is much more doable.
I am going to assume the same backpack/battery/mWs since clearly they are set to be nice multiples and not too much of a burden. However, less shots then in the book since these weapons are on average taking more power to yield the same results.
TL8 Laser Carbine
To get 7 penetration at TL8 pulse lasers, that's 1.75 cm divided by 12- rounding up, 146 kw.
Full range/pen values are
29 (7) 58 (3) 292 (1)
Weight works out to 9.6 kg, heftier then the default, cost is 584 Cr. Add in the 'required' TL5 DFC to support a 250 range and that's 14.6 kg/1084 Cr, a really cheap weapon but effectively more like a crew served MG in size.
Hmmm, the range figures are about half all of those for the default book weapon, while the weapon costs 2.5x more. A tradeoff many weapon designers would take in a heartbeat, I wonder if it is consistent.
At 146 kw a pull, the backpack with 3.75 mWs can only support 25 shots (probably a lot more if one designs in a low power designation fire option).
So the book table standard design has twice the penetration efficiency per shot, but only half the range.
Maybe the working man-portable formula is Range x1/2/10, Penetration double output in megawatts, cost 2.5x?
That works out to 73 kw input which restores our 100 shots, brings the size down to 4.8 kg which rounds to the book value, range is 14.6/29.2/146, which rounding up a bit is also a perfect match with the book.
Looks like a winner. Have to try that out with the rest of the line.
Fun part now is one could design a light infantry MG version of the laser complete with pluses to hit, and a LAG anti-material/sniper version as well.
As for maces to helmets... I've some personal experience being hit my non-spiked, non-flanged maces.
Having taken a pair of baseball-maces to the head (simultaneously - opponent was fighting florentine maces), I walked away with nought but a 5 minute daze... I'd put Sir Kylson about Str 12 to 13...
So, modeling it as a melee weapon probably 1 point lower than an equivalent mass sword...
Note: fighting Lord Dresden the Hephaestian in boffer, back during the SCA boffer (aka "Light Infantry") experiment... he hit me with florentine nerf football maces - they did no damage at all to the body, but the moment he had a clear double (fell for a feint while going for a leg) to the head, the effect was almost entirely the same. Mild concussion, no damage to flesh, and deafened for a minute. The ring was loud enough to draw a hold from the crowd; that I literally fell over stunned resulted in the event Chirurgeon (an EMT4, and heavy fighter herself, who had broken a toe earlier) running... but I was already back to my knees by the time the hold was called. Dres was REALLY shocked, and the marshals banned florentine mace immediately. (Event was Schnapps Brothers II or III... in 89.) Was wearing my heavy helm, 12ga spun-dome bascient, since it was grilled sufficiently close for arrow-safe.
The baseball maces raised 2" circular welts through 1cm thick packing blanket with 8-9mm moosehide leather over... They didn't do anything through 18 ga plate and didn't raise welts on the guy in chain, either.
Those do sound like light wounds, now that I think on it... they impaired my combat function but didn't take me completely out of action.
Having taken a pair of baseball-maces to the head (simultaneously - opponent was fighting florentine maces), I walked away with nought but a 5 minute daze... I'd put Sir Kylson about Str 12 to 13...
So, modeling it as a melee weapon probably 1 point lower than an equivalent mass sword...
Note: fighting Lord Dresden the Hephaestian in boffer, back during the SCA boffer (aka "Light Infantry") experiment... he hit me with florentine nerf football maces - they did no damage at all to the body, but the moment he had a clear double (fell for a feint while going for a leg) to the head, the effect was almost entirely the same. Mild concussion, no damage to flesh, and deafened for a minute. The ring was loud enough to draw a hold from the crowd; that I literally fell over stunned resulted in the event Chirurgeon (an EMT4, and heavy fighter herself, who had broken a toe earlier) running... but I was already back to my knees by the time the hold was called. Dres was REALLY shocked, and the marshals banned florentine mace immediately. (Event was Schnapps Brothers II or III... in 89.) Was wearing my heavy helm, 12ga spun-dome bascient, since it was grilled sufficiently close for arrow-safe.
The baseball maces raised 2" circular welts through 1cm thick packing blanket with 8-9mm moosehide leather over... They didn't do anything through 18 ga plate and didn't raise welts on the guy in chain, either.
Those do sound like light wounds, now that I think on it... they impaired my combat function but didn't take me completely out of action.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I had given thought to a different paradigm re: melee weapons- DEX to hit, STR check to add 1D to damage, possibly STR fail -1D.
I want to take a thorough look at the Striker melee rules before deciding which way to go.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Alright, lets do confidence check by using the new formula to make a T13 LR.
Needs a 20 penetration, 5.95/24, that yields us a 198 kw input needed, lets make it an even 200.
Weighs 13.2 kg, range 20/40/200- damn, that's heavy and exactly half range of the book value even with the doubling penetration/halving range thing in.
Adding in the TL5 DFC and the 2.5 multiplier still gives us just in the 2500 Cr ballpark.
Well heck.
Needs a 20 penetration, 5.95/24, that yields us a 198 kw input needed, lets make it an even 200.
Weighs 13.2 kg, range 20/40/200- damn, that's heavy and exactly half range of the book value even with the doubling penetration/halving range thing in.
Adding in the TL5 DFC and the 2.5 multiplier still gives us just in the 2500 Cr ballpark.
Well heck.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, while reading over the damage rules more carefully, I noted the grenade rule that basically says first hit fragmentation, second hit contact, third or more hits frag hits.
This effectively means that the RAM GL HEAP rounds don't penetrate the heavy armor except on really good hits, effectively -2 for the necessary contact hits.
That is, if HEAP grenades are treated as HE.
That would be more palatable to me with the extra hit every +2 rule/contact 2nd, so re: ranges it would be 10/12/14 to get the contact hit (+ mods).
But I think I may be wishful thinking and this only applies to the HE rounds, free-standing or launched, and that RAM GL HEAP is to be considered a high-tech miniaturized AT missile.
Can the wonks reread and post their opinion please?
This effectively means that the RAM GL HEAP rounds don't penetrate the heavy armor except on really good hits, effectively -2 for the necessary contact hits.
That is, if HEAP grenades are treated as HE.
That would be more palatable to me with the extra hit every +2 rule/contact 2nd, so re: ranges it would be 10/12/14 to get the contact hit (+ mods).
But I think I may be wishful thinking and this only applies to the HE rounds, free-standing or launched, and that RAM GL HEAP is to be considered a high-tech miniaturized AT missile.
Can the wonks reread and post their opinion please?
Sadly, it is clear that the rule only applies to genuine HE rounds. Both the wording of the rule, and the fact that HEAP grenades don't have frag values to plug into the rule indicate this.
On another thread previously we discussed how, in MegaT, the grenade launchers were made indirect fire weapons (even when the target is visible to the shooter). This may be a more elegant solution in Striker to the uber-GL issue.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Ya, more a hope that I was misreading then an expectation. Thanks.
Doesn't make sense to design a HEAP round that penetrates so heavily be indirect. And arguably the Snub Pistol puts paid to the idea that antipersonnel armor HEAP rounds aren't a 'thing'.
I'd like more of an engineering breaching/antivehicle weapon, if there were some smaller/bigger target paradigm to it.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
While reading over the melee rules which I mostly like, I got to thinking about shields.
I would like to be able to incorporate shields for both melee weapons and higher tech shields.
Obviously shields are a big part of melee fights.
Seems to me shields might not be the best thing for most higher tech non-BD capacity battlefield conditions, but could be a real advantage in say the close quarters of an urban or starship fight, where there is limited distance to lug the shield around and high lethality combat.
And I realized something, that a lot of those melee weapons are optimally wielded two-handed, and if one has a shield in one hand and a gun in the other, that rifles on up would be problematic being handled and fired single-handed.
A lot of those guns are heavier then the melee weapons, and while guns do not require strength to hit and cleave through an opponent, it would require perhaps more strength to fire one-handed, and accuracy impacts due to effectively non-aimed fire and recoil that a more normal two-handed shot would handle.
I would like to be able to incorporate shields for both melee weapons and higher tech shields.
Obviously shields are a big part of melee fights.
Seems to me shields might not be the best thing for most higher tech non-BD capacity battlefield conditions, but could be a real advantage in say the close quarters of an urban or starship fight, where there is limited distance to lug the shield around and high lethality combat.
And I realized something, that a lot of those melee weapons are optimally wielded two-handed, and if one has a shield in one hand and a gun in the other, that rifles on up would be problematic being handled and fired single-handed.
A lot of those guns are heavier then the melee weapons, and while guns do not require strength to hit and cleave through an opponent, it would require perhaps more strength to fire one-handed, and accuracy impacts due to effectively non-aimed fire and recoil that a more normal two-handed shot would handle.
Shields and rifles don't mix, they're both simply to ungainly to work with each other.
A shield and a pistol CAN work, but obviously not up close, and the pistol would need to be dropped in order to draw a real melee weapon.
If the shield can not stop bullets, then they can be of marginal utility unless facing something like a casually armed riot situation.
There is a great McQuarrie painting of original Star Wars that has Stromtroopers with lightsaber and shields. Obviously Jedi punted on shields and decided to just deflect blaster bolts with their sabers.
The trick is to avoid the popular problem of "bringing a knife to a gun fight".
A shield and a pistol CAN work, but obviously not up close, and the pistol would need to be dropped in order to draw a real melee weapon.
If the shield can not stop bullets, then they can be of marginal utility unless facing something like a casually armed riot situation.
There is a great McQuarrie painting of original Star Wars that has Stromtroopers with lightsaber and shields. Obviously Jedi punted on shields and decided to just deflect blaster bolts with their sabers.
The trick is to avoid the popular problem of "bringing a knife to a gun fight".
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Well, this is a two part game problem I am working.
Shields certainly ARE part of melee combat especially in barbarian settings, and the rules lack the capacity for that so I want that option.
Shields in a gun setting as I noted are not useful for most situations, your carry and fight burden is better suited for other items.
But I do think that in situations where you have just one direction of threat that they can be very useful. For players, this is likely to happen most on stations, starship hallways/cargo holds and starport back alleys.
Of course the shield in a gun fight has to be cloth or better. For better shields, my main mechanism is just straight up Striker armor in a square 1 meter facing. Gets heavy with the higher tech, but that's what Battle Dress and grav assist is for.
Another reason to quantify singlehanded fighting is the player who insists on weapons in both hands melee or gun, or is busy punching buttons with one hand and a gun in the other.
Finally, with say a shoulder-mounted gun or an arm-mounted laser on a BD suit, I'm not sure the shield/ungainly part holds true.
Shields certainly ARE part of melee combat especially in barbarian settings, and the rules lack the capacity for that so I want that option.
Shields in a gun setting as I noted are not useful for most situations, your carry and fight burden is better suited for other items.
But I do think that in situations where you have just one direction of threat that they can be very useful. For players, this is likely to happen most on stations, starship hallways/cargo holds and starport back alleys.
Of course the shield in a gun fight has to be cloth or better. For better shields, my main mechanism is just straight up Striker armor in a square 1 meter facing. Gets heavy with the higher tech, but that's what Battle Dress and grav assist is for.
Another reason to quantify singlehanded fighting is the player who insists on weapons in both hands melee or gun, or is busy punching buttons with one hand and a gun in the other.
Finally, with say a shoulder-mounted gun or an arm-mounted laser on a BD suit, I'm not sure the shield/ungainly part holds true.
