kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Logical argument. But the system does not mod for that.
Striker Combat - Armor, Penetration and Damage
- Thread starter kilemall
- Start date
Logical argument. But the system does not mod for that.
BD doesn't show up until TL-13. At TL-13 lasers are X-ray and cannot be spoofed by any aerosols. This is also when high energy weapons are a common small arm, and they can't be stopped by anything other than something between you and the weapon.
At TL-12 prismatic aerosols work against lasers but the PGMP-12 is there to help bridge the gap, as is the Gauss Rifle. Though the GG is a problematic as its effectiveness is ridiculous in CT but reasonable in Striker.
In all cases, though, anti-laser aerosols only work if you don't move. If you move they are only good for the round you popped it off. If you don't move it lasts for four rounds. It doesn't take a tactical genius to appreciate the dangerous implications of either situation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Sorry, but I thought as the discussion was for RAM grenades and the like being used to take out BD we were looking at TL 12- adversaries.
TL13 laser rifles are a weapon of choice IMTU precisely because they can take out BD.
TL13 laser rifles are a weapon of choice IMTU precisely because they can take out BD.
No, you have it right - I was just pointing out why jinking about in the sky and not using cover would be a bad idea even if you are in BD, so you're good. I'm approaching the problem from the BD troop side and that they would know the limitations and dangers of lasers, so their tactics would have that accounted for.
So lasers on the indig side would be a possibility - which is why I was pointing out that BD troops couldn't 'dodge' lasers, and flying would turn them into laser-skeet targets. So lasers are allowed - it's not as if I haven't run games where the players ran high tech weapons to local forces outgunned by bad guy troops with better gear and weapons. It practically seems a Traveller traditional situation.
Besides, as I said: imagine the possibilities for ambush if you knew all the BD guys did when shot at with a laser was to pop aerosol and sit there for the 4 turns the stuff worked for. You know, and they know, if they move they lose the protection, if they don't move they can assume you'll paste them in short order with pre-sighted artillery (or maybe just a big rockslide). It might only work once or twice but it would certainly cause the BD guys to use less personal tactics. Better to reduce the area to ruble and then bounce the rubble than that.
BTW: laser rifles are very effective against BD and that is why IMTU BD suits have one built into the right arm as a backup weapon to the FGMP-14.
So lasers on the indig side would be a possibility - which is why I was pointing out that BD troops couldn't 'dodge' lasers, and flying would turn them into laser-skeet targets. So lasers are allowed - it's not as if I haven't run games where the players ran high tech weapons to local forces outgunned by bad guy troops with better gear and weapons. It practically seems a Traveller traditional situation.
Besides, as I said: imagine the possibilities for ambush if you knew all the BD guys did when shot at with a laser was to pop aerosol and sit there for the 4 turns the stuff worked for. You know, and they know, if they move they lose the protection, if they don't move they can assume you'll paste them in short order with pre-sighted artillery (or maybe just a big rockslide). It might only work once or twice but it would certainly cause the BD guys to use less personal tactics. Better to reduce the area to ruble and then bounce the rubble than that.
BTW: laser rifles are very effective against BD and that is why IMTU BD suits have one built into the right arm as a backup weapon to the FGMP-14.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Going to get into the response later, but for right now wanted to note that I think I am going to a slightly different damage system.
Light Wound 1D
Serious Wound 3D
Mortal Wound 6D
Dead 8D
Very Dead 10D
The reason I backed off of the lighter wounds was that I wanted the bruising/grazed type results I always wanted in, and the serious but not fatal wound, to allow for a more nuanced hit feel.
The mortal wound will still likely kill a normal person but fit soldiery has an ok chance to make it through, assuming they get pulled out and treated.
The two higher values are due to the shift down from the HE/energy weapons, and a headshot option, increasing the difficulty of to-hit by one level to get another shift. By Striker standards I suppose this would be a -2 DM, IMTU it would be a task shift therefore -3.
Light Wound 1D
Serious Wound 3D
Mortal Wound 6D
Dead 8D
Very Dead 10D
The reason I backed off of the lighter wounds was that I wanted the bruising/grazed type results I always wanted in, and the serious but not fatal wound, to allow for a more nuanced hit feel.
The mortal wound will still likely kill a normal person but fit soldiery has an ok chance to make it through, assuming they get pulled out and treated.
The two higher values are due to the shift down from the HE/energy weapons, and a headshot option, increasing the difficulty of to-hit by one level to get another shift. By Striker standards I suppose this would be a -2 DM, IMTU it would be a task shift therefore -3.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Alrighty then, I still maintain that Striker has a peculiar mutant inconsistency that makes for overpriced BD (vs. presented value), overpowerful RAM GL vs. CA/BD and a tech progression at war with itself.
Let's step back a second and look at another tech line, the slug thrower rifle.
I was looking at the above Armory book, which is a really lovely bit of work, and seeing how I could build my own pistols and rifles in Striker.
The Armory book has a caliber/xD pistol/rifle of damage maker system, which isn't bad at all.
Other variables that should be taken into account however are increased power of chemical propellant, barrel length (sort of in but simplistic for the rifles), increased metallurgy strength to take higher pressure levels, bullet shape/material/intent, and percentage of round that is bullet vs. propellant.
So in the process of settling that, I took a hard look at the Striker take.
If we are to take Striker's word for it, slug throwers stop being developed during the 'laser years' with the exception of effectively a high tech anti-tank rifle and the rocket snub/accel rounds, apparently people rediscover it after Reflec scotches laser for a time with the ACR, and moves onto magrail two TLs later with Gauss and fusion/Xray lasers afterwards.
Which might be fine if that was internally consistent, we can only get X out of chemicals, except it's NOT.
We know from armor that metallurgy alone increases in strength by multiples.
CPR artillery rounds, including high velocity direct fire big brothers to the rifle, increase in penetration steadily per TL.
So do HE and HEAP rounds AND demolitions- HEAP shows up in steady progression for the RAM GL- but not for the rifle or pistol.
When you factor in the logarithmic progression of the armor values, the penetration increases per TL are not a simple percentage increase either.
Yet it all stops with the marginal ACR increase.
Let's step back a second and look at another tech line, the slug thrower rifle.
I was looking at the above Armory book, which is a really lovely bit of work, and seeing how I could build my own pistols and rifles in Striker.
The Armory book has a caliber/xD pistol/rifle of damage maker system, which isn't bad at all.
Other variables that should be taken into account however are increased power of chemical propellant, barrel length (sort of in but simplistic for the rifles), increased metallurgy strength to take higher pressure levels, bullet shape/material/intent, and percentage of round that is bullet vs. propellant.
So in the process of settling that, I took a hard look at the Striker take.
If we are to take Striker's word for it, slug throwers stop being developed during the 'laser years' with the exception of effectively a high tech anti-tank rifle and the rocket snub/accel rounds, apparently people rediscover it after Reflec scotches laser for a time with the ACR, and moves onto magrail two TLs later with Gauss and fusion/Xray lasers afterwards.
Which might be fine if that was internally consistent, we can only get X out of chemicals, except it's NOT.
We know from armor that metallurgy alone increases in strength by multiples.
CPR artillery rounds, including high velocity direct fire big brothers to the rifle, increase in penetration steadily per TL.
So do HE and HEAP rounds AND demolitions- HEAP shows up in steady progression for the RAM GL- but not for the rifle or pistol.
When you factor in the logarithmic progression of the armor values, the penetration increases per TL are not a simple percentage increase either.
Yet it all stops with the marginal ACR increase.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Now the Striker take may have made sense when it was written. The US Army was spending huge amounts on a project CALLED ACR but did not get the results that were looked for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
Certainly the world did not go G-11/caseless, even though the principle was proven.
But even the TL10 ACR assault rifle has been eclipsed by a new plain old M-16 round, which was designed as part of an effort to eliminate lead pollutions at ranges, and took the extra effort to become a better round.
http://strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20120810.aspx
The result? Penetrating 9.5mm steel at 350 meters- in Striker terms, a 5.56 TL7 round that does a 4 penetration at 35. TL10 9mm ACR results with a mass production TL7.x 5.56mm.
Technology does march on, and is proof the CPR rifle is far from done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#Improvements
The Russians have been out to improve the rifle too- came up with an assault rifle that has such a fast rate, two bullets are fired with the recoil and climb of one, putting both on the same target- and greatly reducing recoil in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATpeX3XBuuw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNx9kxgUQzg
Right now the 'economics of war' do not favor more penetration/power per se, higher hit probabilities, carrying capacity etc. count for more. But if all the world's armies follow the US example and deploy advanced vests, that will change, with likely more investment to counter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Combat_Rifle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objective_Individual_Combat_Weapon
Certainly the world did not go G-11/caseless, even though the principle was proven.
But even the TL10 ACR assault rifle has been eclipsed by a new plain old M-16 round, which was designed as part of an effort to eliminate lead pollutions at ranges, and took the extra effort to become a better round.
http://strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20120810.aspx
The result? Penetrating 9.5mm steel at 350 meters- in Striker terms, a 5.56 TL7 round that does a 4 penetration at 35. TL10 9mm ACR results with a mass production TL7.x 5.56mm.
Technology does march on, and is proof the CPR rifle is far from done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#Improvements
The Russians have been out to improve the rifle too- came up with an assault rifle that has such a fast rate, two bullets are fired with the recoil and climb of one, putting both on the same target- and greatly reducing recoil in general.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AN-94
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATpeX3XBuuw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNx9kxgUQzg
Right now the 'economics of war' do not favor more penetration/power per se, higher hit probabilities, carrying capacity etc. count for more. But if all the world's armies follow the US example and deploy advanced vests, that will change, with likely more investment to counter.
Alternate view of the M855A1 - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch.
http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
http://www.gunsandammo.com/uncategorized/m855a1-should-it-be-the-new-round-for-soldiers-and-marines/
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmm, certainly the round was primarily designed for eco concerns, but the point is they eked out a little bit out of it (with the pressure increase, which will ultimately cost us money and lives), but points out what I am saying, that the slug rifle is not done even at ACR TL10 standards.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Hmmm, while I'm at it, how about some different slug rounds?
HP- hollow point rounds, effective range (0) penetration for pistol/carbine and (1) penetration for rifle/MG, goes up one damage category like energy and HE weapons.
APHE- armor piercing HE rounds, +1 penetration to comparable rounds AND treated as HE rounds for upping category of wounds, 5x normal slug price due to increased round power/material-design penetration/HE detonation.
Note that under current 'laws of war' rifle HP and APHE are generally considered illegal, but in the far future there may be no such thing as nuanced small arms treaties.
LH- laser homing slugs, +2 to hit all ranges (requires special laser scope for long and extreme ranges), 4x normal magazine cost, can be defeated by aerosols, x-ray LH requires matching rounds and scope, and they work both ways- rounds can home in on a laser shooter/designator/scope-sight.
HP- hollow point rounds, effective range (0) penetration for pistol/carbine and (1) penetration for rifle/MG, goes up one damage category like energy and HE weapons.
APHE- armor piercing HE rounds, +1 penetration to comparable rounds AND treated as HE rounds for upping category of wounds, 5x normal slug price due to increased round power/material-design penetration/HE detonation.
Note that under current 'laws of war' rifle HP and APHE are generally considered illegal, but in the far future there may be no such thing as nuanced small arms treaties.
LH- laser homing slugs, +2 to hit all ranges (requires special laser scope for long and extreme ranges), 4x normal magazine cost, can be defeated by aerosols, x-ray LH requires matching rounds and scope, and they work both ways- rounds can home in on a laser shooter/designator/scope-sight.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
HP- hollow point rounds, effective range (0) penetration for pistol/carbine and (1) penetration for rifle/MG, goes up one damage category like energy and HE weapons- if the target has no armor[FONT=arial,helvetica] better then Jack.[/FONT][FONT=arial,helvetica]
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Ya, got to thinking about those LH rounds, came up with this one-
Laser sights, gives +2 to hit at effective range, optical sights +2 at long and extreme range, integrated electronic sights +2 all ranges.
SALH, Semi-Active Laser Homing, provides +2 to hit at any range, and requires laser sight/designator the rounds are keyed to (to prevent spoofed laser distraction).
Note they do not have to be off the firing weapon, sniper teams will often have a designator/sniper pair to keep the high value sniper from detection.
SALH rounds can be detuned to home on any laser source in their immediate 20 degree arc they finds, which allows return fire on an active laser sight/designator at the same +2.
The +2 is cumulative with the +2 at effective range for the laser sight if mounted on the same weapon.
The rounds are finned with a seeker and guidance to target, requiring finer, reliable and miniaturized manufacturing processes the smaller the space available for the seeker/fin guidance while maintaining standard round power. They cost 10x per magazine/round.
The guns firing these rounds must be made at the SALH introduction TL per round/type and made specifically to handle these rounds (due to the electronics and finer tolerances they require) at an extra 200Cr each.
SALH is intro'd for HP rounds at TL9, standard rifle rounds at TL10, ACR-DS at TL11, and gauss at TL13.
Image Homing (IH) rounds are fed image data from electronic sights, confer the +2 of the electronic sights AND image homing of +2, and have the advantage of being passive. However, camo type anti-visual systems will eliminate this entirely as in combat they will shift imagery from second to second to spoof electronic speed imaging in addition to blending in.
Same comments about round and gun TL intro apply.
Gun requires 400Cr for the IH feed in addition to the electronic sight. Rounds/magazines cost x20.
IH is intro'd for HP rounds at TL10, standard rifle rounds at TL11, ACR-DS at TL12, and gauss at TL14.
There. I feel better. Somewhat.
Now to move onto higher pressure/penetration based on better CPR and material tech.
[/FONT]
Ya, got to thinking about those LH rounds, came up with this one-
Laser sights, gives +2 to hit at effective range, optical sights +2 at long and extreme range, integrated electronic sights +2 all ranges.
SALH, Semi-Active Laser Homing, provides +2 to hit at any range, and requires laser sight/designator the rounds are keyed to (to prevent spoofed laser distraction).
Note they do not have to be off the firing weapon, sniper teams will often have a designator/sniper pair to keep the high value sniper from detection.
SALH rounds can be detuned to home on any laser source in their immediate 20 degree arc they finds, which allows return fire on an active laser sight/designator at the same +2.
The +2 is cumulative with the +2 at effective range for the laser sight if mounted on the same weapon.
The rounds are finned with a seeker and guidance to target, requiring finer, reliable and miniaturized manufacturing processes the smaller the space available for the seeker/fin guidance while maintaining standard round power. They cost 10x per magazine/round.
The guns firing these rounds must be made at the SALH introduction TL per round/type and made specifically to handle these rounds (due to the electronics and finer tolerances they require) at an extra 200Cr each.
SALH is intro'd for HP rounds at TL9, standard rifle rounds at TL10, ACR-DS at TL11, and gauss at TL13.
Image Homing (IH) rounds are fed image data from electronic sights, confer the +2 of the electronic sights AND image homing of +2, and have the advantage of being passive. However, camo type anti-visual systems will eliminate this entirely as in combat they will shift imagery from second to second to spoof electronic speed imaging in addition to blending in.
Same comments about round and gun TL intro apply.
Gun requires 400Cr for the IH feed in addition to the electronic sight. Rounds/magazines cost x20.
IH is intro'd for HP rounds at TL10, standard rifle rounds at TL11, ACR-DS at TL12, and gauss at TL14.
There. I feel better. Somewhat.
Now to move onto higher pressure/penetration based on better CPR and material tech.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Well, before I mess with the upteched rifles, I decided I needed to look at what I liked about Striker, and what was missing.
CT combat has a problem, in that it ties together both penetration and probability to hit to determine whether you get damage.
That's not what I wanted, I wanted to develop a system where a hit can occur, but the damage can be limited or cut, or if penetration occurs full damage happens.
Well, that's not Striker, or the other Traveller systems I have looked at.
Most systems are sliding damage up by weapon and ammo, and down by armor vs. ammo type on a point basis, even that marvelous add-on Armory book.
Striker of course uses the penetration as a probability of greater or lesser damage with light, serious or death results (translated into XD for characters as we have discussed here).
Closer, but it still has the 8D-10D problem- if you get hit by one of the heavier weapons, even if it hit your thumb apparently it explodes and utterly kills you no matter what.
I want an easy crunchy system that allows for glancing blows, plasma gun hits on minor digits or even take a leg off, without autokilling, .22 type assassination pistols to be lethal within their range and usage, and to not have to change the entire system and all the toys a whole lot.
CT combat has a problem, in that it ties together both penetration and probability to hit to determine whether you get damage.
That's not what I wanted, I wanted to develop a system where a hit can occur, but the damage can be limited or cut, or if penetration occurs full damage happens.
Well, that's not Striker, or the other Traveller systems I have looked at.
Most systems are sliding damage up by weapon and ammo, and down by armor vs. ammo type on a point basis, even that marvelous add-on Armory book.
Striker of course uses the penetration as a probability of greater or lesser damage with light, serious or death results (translated into XD for characters as we have discussed here).
Closer, but it still has the 8D-10D problem- if you get hit by one of the heavier weapons, even if it hit your thumb apparently it explodes and utterly kills you no matter what.
I want an easy crunchy system that allows for glancing blows, plasma gun hits on minor digits or even take a leg off, without autokilling, .22 type assassination pistols to be lethal within their range and usage, and to not have to change the entire system and all the toys a whole lot.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Then I took a really good look at that damage table.
I realized the percentage roughly corresponded to head/organ damage with the dead hits, major appendages/cavity hits that aren't major organs with the serious wounds, and the extremities/glancing blows with the light wounds.
So, now I am treating the wound table as primarily a hit location table, with adjustments for successful armor and shooter skill.
So here are the new rules (I am keeping it to Striker/Traveller conversion without throwing in my IMTU task system so you can more readily use it).
A direct fire shooter has the option to use part or all of his skill modifier to apply to the damage result positively OR negatively, instead of aiding the to-hit. The decision to do so must be announced prior to the to hit roll being made, otherwise it is assumed the skill goes to increasing the chance to hit.
On a successful weapons hit on a soldier, roll on the damage table.
If the armor has a higher value then the weapon, apply the negative and adjust the damage result.
If the weapon has an even penetration or better to the armor, do not apply any pluses, use the roll as is.
If the player opted to use the character skill for damage, adjust the damage up or down as declared.
Light Wound 1D
Serious Wound 3D
Critical Wound 6D
If the round is Hollow Point, APHE, HE contact, HEAP, Flame, Heavy Weapons or an Energy Weapon AND penetrates, add 1D.
Minor Wound 2D
Major Wound 4D
Lethal Wound 7D
That's it.
So the plasma gun still has a good likelihood of killing you as it is likely to rip through any armor you have, but it's not automatic and is going to have more to do with the skill of the shooter then an autokill with the weapon.
Gives you a chance to survive the high tech battlefield (assuming the first hit is the only hit before evac), and the lighter stuff can still be lethal if up against matching armor and in the hands of a skilled trooper.
Really makes those sniper shooting missions pop as the better skilled will truly be able to do one shot one kill with his weapon at the appropriate range.
I realized the percentage roughly corresponded to head/organ damage with the dead hits, major appendages/cavity hits that aren't major organs with the serious wounds, and the extremities/glancing blows with the light wounds.
So, now I am treating the wound table as primarily a hit location table, with adjustments for successful armor and shooter skill.
So here are the new rules (I am keeping it to Striker/Traveller conversion without throwing in my IMTU task system so you can more readily use it).
A direct fire shooter has the option to use part or all of his skill modifier to apply to the damage result positively OR negatively, instead of aiding the to-hit. The decision to do so must be announced prior to the to hit roll being made, otherwise it is assumed the skill goes to increasing the chance to hit.
On a successful weapons hit on a soldier, roll on the damage table.
If the armor has a higher value then the weapon, apply the negative and adjust the damage result.
If the weapon has an even penetration or better to the armor, do not apply any pluses, use the roll as is.
If the player opted to use the character skill for damage, adjust the damage up or down as declared.
Light Wound 1D
Serious Wound 3D
Critical Wound 6D
If the round is Hollow Point, APHE, HE contact, HEAP, Flame, Heavy Weapons or an Energy Weapon AND penetrates, add 1D.
Minor Wound 2D
Major Wound 4D
Lethal Wound 7D
That's it.
So the plasma gun still has a good likelihood of killing you as it is likely to rip through any armor you have, but it's not automatic and is going to have more to do with the skill of the shooter then an autokill with the weapon.
Gives you a chance to survive the high tech battlefield (assuming the first hit is the only hit before evac), and the lighter stuff can still be lethal if up against matching armor and in the hands of a skilled trooper.
Really makes those sniper shooting missions pop as the better skilled will truly be able to do one shot one kill with his weapon at the appropriate range.
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MT is the only one that doesn't directly conflate penetration and damage for PC's. Every other edition pretty much does.
MT does have what you're looking for... if you can wrap your brain around the differences. I would, however, house rule it to make damage equal to the CT 2E damage for the weapons in Bk1 & Bk4...
T4 can be said to have a basic differentiation as well (although not as clearly distinct as in MT) in that armor subtracts whole-dice of damage as opposed to the damage points themselves. And it's fairly quick and simple and easily ported to CT.
No, that's still tightly conflated. A higher base damage always penetrates more armor.
In MT, three factors determine the weapon's damage:
The weapon's base damage
The ratio of Pen to AV for that shot (with 4 outcomes - x0, x0.1, x0.5, x1)
The quality of hit (x0.5, x1, x2, x4, x8).
I think the scale was TOO compressed in MT - almost all firearms are damage 3, and they should have retained the CT2e number of dice. I've done this in play, and it works VERY nicely. It also makes the VRF Gauss Gun the holy terror it's described as at short ranges...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
What happens when a mace - low penetration - hits a helmet?
Doesn't penetrate but kills the victim - how does Striker/MT cope with that?
Answer - badly - Striker and MT are poor at modelling the effect of melee weapons.
Doesn't penetrate but kills the victim - how does Striker/MT cope with that?
Answer - badly - Striker and MT are poor at modelling the effect of melee weapons.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Can't speak to MT, but Striker is not poor at modelling maces- they aren't on the weapons list at all!
Staff/cudgel/clubs are penetration 2 and the closest animal equivalent, hooves, are penetration 4, so it would be reasonable to surmise a mace would be 3.
For unarmored targets a pen 3 would still render no chance at one blow one death, so there is a mite more problem then just not modelling blunt trauma against armor. Oddly enough, also true of spears and some of the lesser blades.
The melee table seems to be saying the use of melee weapons is a matter of a dozen stabs. Guess I would tend to say the whole parry/defense mechanic can stretch out a melee, but the mortal blow needs to be possible.
If you ignore the melee table and just use the personnel wounds table with my adjustments, a mace with pen 3 could kill in one blow to the head with era armor of 1-2 (maybe 3 for plate armor), but not for Cloth and up.
That's a situation under my system where the mace wielder could use his skill to increase damage too, so say a Mace-2 veteran could apply his skill to adjust the damage down- he's not penetrating but he's aiming his blow to apply the maximum amount of trauma possible. Against Cloth that would restore the chance at 12/death and normal serious wounds.
Our Mace-2 veteran is out of luck against combat armor, only light wounds on 11+, his skill could only up that damage chance to 9+, no chance for serious wounds. Technology finally stops the 12th century.
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kilemall
SOC-14 5K
I never liked the 8+D weapons valuations, seems like modelling .01 vs. .001 chance you survive.
The terror of any rapid fire weapon should be that you might take 4 3D hits and are therefore Very Dead with multiple holes rather then one hit anywhere instasplode.
Does remind me though, should add Heavy Weapons to the list of +1D effects.
