Subsector Fleet make-up in 1105

[aramis]

Those are all rulers. How many commanders-in-chief set up their peacetime headquarters away from their ruler?


Peacetime deployment? Because I've already acknowledged that a sector admiral can take to the field if a large portion of his units go to war. Santanocheev did it.

And what about modern commanders-in-chiefs? How many first lords of the Admiralty and chiefs of naval operations have led their country's forces in the field?


Hans

they were rulers who not only ruled, but lead their own armies on campaign - leaving governance back home to "trusted" administrations.

Also note: many democracies and republics, and not a few empires make the Commander in Chief, at least notionally, the elected man or the crown, rather than a serving officer. The US is one such nation. That would be, in the 3I, either a grand admiral at the court, or the Emperor himself.

And the US CNO did go to the field during the Gulf Wars.

During WWII and the post WWII reconstruction period, the seniormost officers in the US Army, US Army Air Forces, and USMC were all deployed in the field ... nowhere near their HQ nor near their center of government. Their HQ units stayed put, but they themselves left on campaign.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

I don't know what Mongoose says, but if Mongoose says different, it's badly flawed canon. It is very poor organization to distract the head of a major organization by also making him responsible for one of the subsidiary branches. I do know that I can't find anything in CT that definitively puts a sector admiral at the head of a numbered fleet, not outside of civil war references, and that's - well, if you're going to cross the Rubicon, you're going to have to do things differently anyway or you'll be undercut by the loyalists in your own ranks.

the mongoose version (form Mgt Spinward Marches) is that majority of the capital ships in a sector are held in a adminstativly seperate sector fleet, normally kept concentrated at the sector depot, or in foreward deployed bases in fighting strength, and that the numbered sub sector fleets only have a single squadron of cruisers at best, most of their numbers being destroyers and escorts.

the stated logic goes that the Sector Fleet "Fights Wars", while the Subsector Fleets "Keeps the Peace", concentrating on commerce protection and general small scale work. Since the subsector fleets aren't meant to warfighting, almost all the big ships are kept in seperate battlefleets, under the direct control of the Sector Fleet (and, by extension, the Sector Admiral) But this means that a subsector fleet admirial, who I'd assume is the most senoir admirial in his subsector, might have BatRon or two parked in his balliwack, that he can;t give direct orders to, but answer to whole seperate chain of command.

This appears to remind me very strongly of David Webers Honor Harrington setting, in particular the Solarian League, with its seperate Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet. It's not a flattering comparison.

 

[rancke]

A sector admiral is not a First Lord in the Imperium.

That goes without saying. But he is in an analogous position. He is the chief of naval operations for his sector.

That position is Grand Admiral. There are only 2 Grand Admirals and both are on Capital.

Another unsupported claim. Grand admirals do stick around Capital nowadays, but there's no statement about how many of them there are.


Hans

 

[savage]

Let's clear up the "depot" bit first. The nearest depot serving the Spinward Marches is in Deneb sector, very far from the thick of operations. 21 parsecs from Rhylanor,...

Thus, while the sector admiral of Deneb might indeed be located at Depot/Deneb, the sector admiral of the Marches has no depot. Dulinor had two depots too.

As for what a sector admiral does in war, I can't speak authoritatively for canon beyond CT and MT. ... "A numbered fleet is a group of several squadrons; a named fleet is an assembly of two or more numbered fleets."

This tells me operationally that a numbered fleet would have an admiral responsible for that fleet and the sector admiral would in turn have all those admirals answering to him. The sector admiral would not have a fleet of his own unless he was also admiral of one of the numbered fleets. While it can be dramatic to have the head of the sector in charge of one of the spears, operationally it's much like having the CEO of Wal-Mart being also responsible for the operation of one of their stores, or maybe one of their city branches.
...but this business of giving the sector admiral his own fleet - again, it just distracts him from the job he has. Even if he were co-located with a fleet, as with the depots, I'd put that fleet in the hands of a fleet admiral and make the fleet admiral

Hopefully, this response helps resolve the issues you've identified->
First issue:
Pseudo depot of SM, per 1248 is the naval base at Macene SM2612.
A second Deneb depot was also established per TNE. Margaret also built a second depot in her sector. I assume one for the front against Lucan/Dulinor and a second for the Solomani front. Dulinor had a second depot in his home sector, Ilelish.

Second Issue:
Sector Admiral is not a CEO. However, the CEO of 3COM decided to relocate to China, he was Chinese. Which made a terrible stir. Communications lags are very brief on Earth. It would not work for the Grand Admiral at Core/Capital. Once again, the sector admiral is a named fleet admiral not a numbered fleet admiral (his direct report) or grand admiral of the fleet (who he reports too through the Domain Grand Admiral).

Third Issue:
The Sector Admiral can utilize any assets at his disposal, assuming he follows naval protocols of the 3rd Imperium. He would not replace a numbered fleet admiral unless he had no choice. However, he might say "255th Fleet Admiral Varki. Have one of your squadrons transfer me to Kaasu for annual budget discussions." Or he might just say to the Depot Security Fleet Admiral, "Have one of your Couriers and 3 gazelle transport me to Kaasu for annual budget discussions." He's not replacing anyone. Just hitching a ride like Eisenhower. However, there is no reason to assume he does not have an admiral's ship. I have never seen anything that suggests Sector Admiral and up have or do not have their own "assigned" starship. So IMO that is a refs call.

 

[rancke]

First off, it appears that I owe John an apology and that he is in a position to force me to buy a copy of Sector Fleet. Pardon me a moment while I remove this pedal extremity from my mouth.

That having been said...

the mongoose version (form Mgt Spinward Marches) is that majority of the captial ships in a sector are held in a adminstativly seperate sector fleet, normally kept concentrated at the sector depot, or in foreward deployed bases, and that the numbered sub sector fleets only have a single squadron of cruisers, most of their numbers being destoryers and escorts.

Absolute rubbish. That sort of strength levels are about 1/10th of what numbered fleets used to be. That would allow the Imperium's enemies to overrun it. Unless, that is, the sector fleets have about 150 times as many cruisers and battleships as each subsector fleet? If so, the IN would need to organize itself into about 45,000 numbered fleets, not 320.

The stated logic goes that the Sector Fleet fights wars, while the Subsector Fleets "keep the peace", concentrating on commerce protection and general small scale work.

Looks like the numbered Imperial Navy fleets have been demoted. That's what the reserve fleets (or in CT, the local subsector navies) are supposed to handle.

This means that a subsector fleet admirial might have BatRon or two parked in his balliwack, that he can;t give direct orders to, but answer to whole seperate chain of command.

:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

And let me guess, the local duke isn't allowed to order them about either?



Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

...During WWII and the post WWII reconstruction period, the seniormost officers in the US Army, US Army Air Forces, and USMC were all deployed in the field ...

Deployed? My understanding was that Marshall's travels during the war were more in the way of liaisoning with allies and taking a first-hand look at what was going on in someone else's command.

the mongoose version (form Mgt Spinward Marches) is that majority of the capital ships in a sector are held in a adminstativly seperate sector fleet, normally kept concentrated at the sector depot, or in foreward deployed bases in fighting strength, and that the numbered sub sector fleets only have a single squadron of cruisers at best, most of their numbers being destroyers and escorts.

the stated logic goes that the Sector Fleet "Fights Wars", while the Subsector Fleets "Keeps the Peace", concentrating on commerce protection and general small scale work. Since the subsector fleets aren't meant to warfighting, almost all the big ships are kept in seperate battlefleets, under the direct control of the Sector Fleet (and, by extension, the Sector Admiral) But this means that a subsector fleet admirial, who I'd assume is the most senoir admirial in his subsector, might have BatRon or two parked in his balliwack, that he can;t give direct orders to, but answer to whole seperate chain of command.

This appears to remind me very strongly of David Webers Honor Harrington setting, in particular the Solarian League, with its seperate Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet. It's not a flattering comparison.

Now that's interesting. Very different from the picture MT paints. Does the sector squadron serve as a reserve from which to deploy those big boys to the subsector fleets, or does the sector fleet operate as a distinct fighting spear? And how does that work if the Imperials have to counter several separate axes of attack?

 

[savage]

the mongoose version (form Mgt Spinward Marches) is that majority of the capital ships in a sector are held in a adminstativly seperate sector fleet, normally kept concentrated at the sector depot, or in foreward deployed bases in fighting strength, and that the numbered sub sector fleets only have a single squadron of cruisers at best, most of their numbers being destroyers and escorts.

the stated logic goes that the Sector Fleet "Fights Wars", while the Subsector Fleets "Keeps the Peace",
This appears to remind me very strongly of David Webers Honor Harrington setting, in particular the Solarian League, with its seperate Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet. It's not a flattering comparison.

Nicely summarized and the analysis of HH's SL also makes sense since that is repetitively discussed in early T20 discussions.

This gets into the MgT Reserve Fleet discussion which we had on the Corridor Fleet thread. However, subsector fleets still operate during wars we don't want to dismiss their organizational importance.

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

First off, it appears that I owe John an apology and that he is in a position to force me to buy a copy of Sector Fleet. Pardon me a moment while I remove this pedal extremity from my mouth.

That having been said...

Absolute rubbish. That sort of strength levels are about 1/10th of what numbered fleets used to be. That would allow the Imperium's enemies to overrun it. Unless, that is, the sector fleets have about 150 times as many cruisers and battleships as each subsector fleet? If so, the IN would need to organize itself into about 45,000 numbered fleets, not 320.



Hans

the total number of ships is not stated to have changed, just thier chains of command. each sector fleet still has however many captial ships it's supposed to have, it just keeps them under its banner, not parceling them out to the subsector fleets.

Looks like the numbered Imperial Navy fleets have been demoted. That's what the reserve fleets (or in CT, the local subsector navies) are supposed to handle.

:nonono::nonono::nonono::nonono:

And let me guess, the local duke isn't allowed to order them about either?

yes, the numbered fleets are the subsector navies in Mgt.

And Yes, the local duke cannot give direct orders, though he can drop bloody strong hints and "suggestions". the book goes on for several pages about the command structure and who can tell who what to do, but it basically boils down to only the Navy can give binding orders to the Navy, but the nobles can make requests that would normally be honoured unless thier were very good reasons not to.

Now that's interesting. Very different from the picture MT paints. Does the sector squadron serve as a reserve from which to deploy those big boys to the subsector fleets, or does the sector fleet operate as a distinct fighting spear? And how does that work if the Imperials have to counter several separate axes of attack?

The wording strongly implies that the captial ships are kept in seperate fleets, distinct from the subsector fleets, and focued purely on warfighting. It mentions that elements can and are placed under subsector control for certian reasons, but implies this is not the norm, and that thse transfers are normally cruisers, not battleships.

Agianst a multi axis attack, I'd assume it's work simmilar to before. the ships are basically in their CT 1105 deployment pattern, its just that their chains of command are different, and in my opinion rather confused.

but I'd assume that the senior admiral facing each axis would take control of the forces in that area, and the sector admiral would suffle forces between them as he saw fit. I'd guess that the sector fleet Battlefeets would have thier own apointed commanders and standing orders listing contingency plans in case of war.

Like i said, the chain of command is unclear, but the subsector admirals are not normally in control of any sector fleet elements in their sectsectors, unless orders to that affect are drafted. However they may be able to dragoon them under the Imperiums "man on the spot" policy of crisis management ("I am the senior officer of His Imperial Majesty's Navy present! Form line of battle on my stern and follow me!").

 

[rancke]

the total number of ships is not stated to have changed, just their chains of command. each sector fleet still has however many capital ships it's supposed to have, it just keeps them under its banner, not parceling them out to the subsector fleets.

So of the 1000 combat vessels in a sector, some 150 or so are assigned to the regular subsector fleets. And the 850 other capital ships are stationed in the sector depot? What a logistical nightmare. The big ships aren't parcelled out to the subsectors, they're stationed at the worlds that have the infrastructure to maintain them.

And Yes, the local duke cannot give direct orders, though he can drop bloody strong hints and "suggestions". the book goes on for several pages about the command structure and who can tell who what to do, but it basically boils down to only the Navy can give binding orders to the Navy, but the nobles can make requests that would normally be honoured unless thier were very good reasons not to.

If that rigmarole is current canon then it can't be retconned back to something sensible fast enough. And I will do whatever I can to persuade TPTB to do so. And please don't accuse me of trying to force anyone else to follow my vision. I'm trying to persuade others to follow my vision, and I feel totally entitled to do so. Just as I believe that others are entitled to try to persuade me and anyone else to follow their visions.

I guess that from now on I will have to remember to mention that I'm relying on pre-MgT canon when I make my arguments. But then, I already did that.

The wording strongly implies that the capital ships are kept in seperate fleets, distinct from the subsector fleets, and focued purely on warfighting.

So if a numbered fleet has around 10 ships, a sector fleet of 850 ships would be organized into 85 numbered fleets, right? So the Imperium would have about 2000 numbered fleets rather than the (old canon) canonical 320 fleets? Or perhaps numbered fleets belonging to sector fleets, for a mere 270 additional numbered fleets.


Hans

 

[rancke]

An apology

I hereby apologise to John for saying that he did not have canon support for his statements about separate sector fleets stationed at depots.


Hans

 

[savage]

the total number of ships is not stated to have changed, just thier chains of command. each sector fleet still has however many captial ships it's supposed to have, it just keeps them under its banner, not parceling them out to the subsector fleets.

Clarify that we do not confuse the discussion of subsector numbered fleets. Which also addresses chain of command.

Per MgT:Sector Fleet:
"The Sector Fleet of the Spinward Marches, and the subsector fleets within it, are all part of the Grand Fleet, and their actions have at times shaped the course of Imperial history."
Clearly, MT:RS tells us that these sector fleets may have additional assets. I believe that is reenforced in MgT:SM as you mentioned.

 

[Carlobrand]

...yes, the numbered fleets are the subsector navies in Mgt. ...

...The wording strongly implies that the captial ships are kept in seperate fleets, distinct from the subsector fleets, and focued purely on warfighting. It mentions that elements can and are placed under subsector control for certian reasons, but implies this is not the norm, and that thse transfers are normally cruisers, not battleships.

Agianst a multi axis attack, I'd assume it's work simmilar to before. the ships are basically in their CT 1105 deployment pattern, its just that their chains of command are different, and in my opinion rather confused.
...

It would appear, as you say, that what Mongoose is calling the numbered fleets are playing the role of the colonial fleets in CT. Which, I agree, leaves the organization and command structure of the Mongoose sector fleet confused - or at least tosses it into the "insufficient data" category. It's not at all clear from that description whether the sector admiral is controlling squadrons in his own right or through subordinate admirals responsible for whatever subdivisions the sector fleet is organized around. There has to be some sort of a subdivision structure for the units to operate as cohesive wholes on several different axes of attack.

Also tosses the whole discussion into the "apples and oranges" category. Whatever Mongoose might consider canon, this is clearly very different from MT canon and, given the context, no more overrides MT's view of things than GURPS's decision to not assassinate Strephon would. On the other hand, neither does MT override Mongoose. They're just two slightly altered milieus in two different game systems.

 

[rancke]

Clearly, MT:RS tells us that these sector fleets may have additional assets. I believe that is reenforced in MgT:SM as you mentioned.

Rebellion Sourcebook¹ clearly does not tell us any such thing. I could quote you what RbS tells us about sector fleets (I've just had the book out and reread it), but unless my memory is playing me false I've already done so once, so I don't see why I should bother.

¹ When you say 'RS' you are presumably referring to RbS and not RgS, Regency Sourcebook.​

Hans

 

[savage]

Rebellion Sourcebook¹ clearly does not tell us any such thing. I could quote you what RbS tells us about sector fleets (I've just had the book out and reread it), but unless my memory is playing me false I've already done so once, so I don't see why I should bother.

¹ When you say 'RS' you are presumably referring to RbS and not RgS, Regency Sourcebook.​

Hans

These are numbered fleets within Capital and would fall into the sector fleet as numbered fleets. There are other missing fleets numbers that ar not named, also training, depot defense and reserve/colonial ships fall in the Sector fleet command chain.

MT:RS "Fleets 309, 310, 311, and 312 are also at Capital."

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

So of the 1000 combat vessels in a sector, some 150 or so are assigned to the regular subsector fleets. And the 850 other capital ships are stationed in the sector depot? What a logistical nightmare. The big ships aren't parcelled out to the subsectors, they're stationed at the worlds that have the infrastructure to maintain them.

thats pretty much what it says. It also says that most of the Spinward marches Fleet is spread out and foreward deployed to cover the likey threats form the Zhodani (as per 1105 "thin, hard crust" doctrine), and i'd assume thats what the other sectors do as well.

If that rigmarole is current canon then it can't be retconned back to something sensible fast enough. And I will do whatever I can to persuade TPTB to do so. And please don't accuse me of trying to force anyone else to follow my vision. I'm trying to persuade others to follow my vision, and I feel totally entitled to do so. Just as I believe that others are entitled to try to persuade me and anyone else to follow their visions.

I guess that from now on I will have to remember to mention that I'm relying on pre-MgT canon when I make my arguments. But then, I already did that.

like i said, the full version is several pages of A4, but it boils down to the navy having operational control of where it's assets are deployed, and it deploys them in accordance with political guidance form the nobility. The given example goes like:

Sector duke: The Example Empire is being rather uppity at the moment, and i'm worried about out rimward defenses. I'd like you to move some fleet elements to cover those worlds.

Sector Admirial: Understood, Your Grace, I will draft orders to move 2 Batrons and their screens to <planet>. would that be suffcient?

The admirial is the one giving the actual orders to the ships, and can refuse to follow suggestions with a good reason ("but sir, if we move to rimward, our trailing worlds will be expose to the Placeholder Polity"), but he mainly acts to whatever tune the nobility is singing.

It's basically like how the Prime Minister of the UK, or his Minister of Defense, can't actually give binding orders to sodliers, but they can direct the general staff about What They Want Done, and leave it up to the soliders to work out how to do it.

The basic point is that a local duke can't Hijack a imperial fleet to join his hairbrained scheme, though he can try and talk the admirial into it.

So if a numbered fleet has around 10 ships, a sector fleet of 850 ships would be organized into 85 numbered fleets, right? So the Imperium would have about 2000 numbered fleets rather than the (old canon) canonical 320 fleets? Or perhaps numbered fleets belonging to sector fleets, for a mere 270 additional numbered fleets.

Hans

only if you take the line that a numbered fleet cannot have more than 10 ships in it's order of battle. The book implies that the fleet sizes are rather variable , with ships being added and removed as needed. Also, it doesn't mention if the sector fleet elements are given thier own fleet numbers, or are defines in some other manner.

or we could just say that the sector fleet elements in a subsector have standing orders to divert to subsector control in the event of a major war and are not given orders to the contary. Considering the distances and comms lags in traveller, the ship captians would have to have quite extensive contingincy plans and standing orders to direct them usefully if a war breaks out

 

[rancke]

It's basically like how the Prime Minister of the UK, or his Minister of Defense, can't actually give binding orders to sodliers...

Who says the Prime Minister can't give binding orders to soldiers? He has to pass them down the chain of command, sure, but he can tell the Minister of Defense to issue orders to the chief of the navy. And if the chief of the navy should not feel like obeying those orders, he can start looking around for another job.

There's some sort of belief going around that civilians can't issue binding orders to military personnel, but that's what civilian control of the military is all about.

...but they can direct the general staff about What They Want Done, and leave it up to the soliders to work out how to do it.

But that's not the same thing as not being able to give the general staff orders. How is directing the general staff about what they want done different from giving them orders?

And I'm pretty sure some civilian authorities give orders about how to go about following their orders all the time. Not the smart ones, of course, but...

The basic point is that a local duke can't Hijack a imperial fleet to join his hairbrained scheme, though he can try and talk the admirial into it.

But the whole point of having the Imperium split up into duchies is to have a local representative of the Emperor with the authority to issue orders. Binding orders. Just as historically royal governors of European empires were the direct representatives of their kings and issued orders to all military units stationed in their province. The kings just had to hope that their governors didn't concoct hairbrained schemes.

...only if you take the line that a numbered fleet cannot have more than 10 ships in it's order of battle.

No, I covered the other possibility in my last line.

The book implies that the fleet sizes are rather variable , with ships being added and removed as needed. Also, it doesn't mention if the sector fleet elements are given thier own fleet numbers, or are defines in some other manner.

RbS says named fleets are composed of numbered fleets. Unless SF explicitly retcons that, it would still be canon, right?

`
Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Once again i agree with Hans.

Somewhere, someone hasn't done basic research - or deliberate retconning is being authorised.

CT LD Supplements make it clear they the Imperial government begins at the sub-sector level with the sub-sector dukes. They have the authority of the Emperor to act as local emperor - that includes issuing orders to the military.
A sector duke is a first among equals, the reason for a sector admiral reporting directly to a sector duke would be to allow the sector admiral to ignore the bleatings of other sub-sector dukes.
Local fleet admirals would have to follow the orders of the sub-sector duke until the orders from the sector admiral come through to direct them otherwise. And those orders would have to have been authorised by the sector duke. Otherwise the Imperium is a military state where the sector admiral is the supreme authority.

FFW and S9 make it clear that the Imperium pre 5FW maintained a limited number of regular batons and crurons in the Spinward marches, but the bulk of the IN is held in reserve. MT muddied the waters by using the term reserve erroneously (or possibly this was the terminology adopted post 5FW).
Individual worlds and duchies maintain their own squadrons which can be drafted into Imperial fleets.

 

[savage]

The basic point is that a local duke can't Hijack a imperial fleet to join his hairbrained scheme, though he can try and talk the admirial into it.

Yep, I agree with that statement. I'd say it's pretty clear and even goes a step forward. The Imperium admiralty can requisition Planetary navy (colonial) jump capable ships, as needed.

The naval admiralty does not have to report through dukes. Furthermore, RS shows dashed lines not solid.

So, back to the topic. A subsector fleet has a batron and cruron.

 

[rancke]

These are numbered fleets within Capital and would fall into the sector fleet as numbered fleets.

You are making a basic logical mistake here. Just because all sector fleets are composed of numbered fleets it does not follow that all numbered fleets are part of sector fleets. Fleets 309-312 are part of the Capital Fleet¹, not the Core Sector Fleet.

¹ Name not canon.​

The text explicitly states that the Corridor Sector Fleet is composed of 16 numbered fleets, not 20. The four other fleets stationed in Corridor are clearly not part of the Corridor Sector Fleet (According to RbS, that is).

There are other missing fleets numbers that ar not named, also training, depot defense and reserve/colonial ships fall in the Sector fleet command chain.

There are alternative explanations for the missing fleet numbers that does not require that one ignores the clear and unequivocal statements in RbS about sector fleets.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Yep, I agree with that statement. I'd say it's pretty clear and even goes a step forward. The Imperium admiralty can requisition Planetary navy (colonial) jump capable ships, as needed.

The naval admiralty does not have to report through dukes. Furthermore, RS shows dashed lines not solid.

So, back to the topic. A subsector fleet is a batron and cruron.

So the Imperium is a military state - ok, got it.