Survival Food Packet

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Liquids.

How about skipping all oral intake and just feeding them through a tube in a good sized artery? It ain't the best, but if have to set you to have meds pumped into you might as well kill two birds with one stone.

I don't remember what the name if the stuff they kept me alive with when I was a kid, but I remember it being pumped right into a vein and was cylume green. Then there is just plain drinking dinner, such as Ensure (nasty as hell warm, vaguely palatable cold).

Why waste all those precious calories chewing when you just get the nutrients live and direct?

 

[samuelvss]

How about skipping all oral intake and just feeding them through a tube in a good sized artery? It ain't the best, but if have to set you to have meds pumped into you might as well kill two birds with one stone.

I don't remember what the name if the stuff they kept me alive with when I was a kid, but I remember it being pumped right into a vein and was cylume green. Then there is just plain drinking dinner, such as Ensure (nasty as hell warm, vaguely palatable cold).

Why waste all those precious calories chewing when you just get the nutrients live and direct?

There is something to be said about avoiding putting extra holes into arteries in combat, and about keeping the flora of the gut healthy.

 

[Timerover51]

How about skipping all oral intake and just feeding them through a tube in a good sized artery? It ain't the best, but if have to set you to have meds pumped into you might as well kill two birds with one stone.

I don't remember what the name if the stuff they kept me alive with when I was a kid, but I remember it being pumped right into a vein and was cylume green. Then there is just plain drinking dinner, such as Ensure (nasty as hell warm, vaguely palatable cold).

Why waste all those precious calories chewing when you just get the nutrients live and direct?

My first son had one of those in him for 5 months prior to his death from the complications of premature birth in 1984. Keeping it clean and sterile was a massive problem, and any bacteria basically get a free nutrient ride into your blood system.

Also, you do have to take the suit off at times, and those feeding tubes are not something that can be taken out and put back in on a moment's notice, aside from having limited places to put them, and once out, you cannot use the same vein again for a long time.

 

[aramis]

There is something to be said about avoiding putting extra holes into arteries in combat, and about keeping the flora of the gut healthy.

There's also a physiological need to have something in the stomach and intestines. It can be almost pure dietary fiber if the nutrient needs (sufficient simple sugars, fluids, and minerals) are injected into the bloodstream; there needs to be enough nutrient to feed the gut flora. Otherwise, the flora attack the gut for sustenance and create other complications.

 

[Timerover51]

In suits, there will be a way to, in extremis, refuel on the fly. I wouldn't call it eating, and it will be a combat expedient, not normal field sustenance. When most of what you are doing is waiting around, tiddling with food is one of the few amusements. When all you are doing is moving, fighting, and a few hours of sleep, the last hting on your mind will be what your goo tastes like.

Based on the histories and personal accounts of World War 2, a big thing on the mind of the troops was what sort of chow were they going to get, and when. That included when the troops were in the middle of a battle.

It is still policy to get hot meals (made by someone else) to the troops when practical. It isn't logistically efficient, but it is a moral boost.

It is not just a moral boost, but a major factor in keeping the troops in good health and capable of sustained effort. Again, you might want to read some of the WW2 histories. Then, in Korea, hot food was vital in the winter to maintaining the troops in good health. Frozen C rations were a major problem.

I would say technology could go a long way to making this more practical logistically.

The nutritional needs of mankind have not changed in thousands, indeed hundreds of thousands, of years. The ability to meet those nutritional needs has greatly improved over the past 155 years since 1860. However, the expectation of the troops for palatable food has also increased. I am not sure if you could get away with serving the troops the standard garrison ration from 1896, even though that was far superior to the standard US Army ration of the Civil War. [Note: I have the list of foods for the standard garrison ration for 1896, along with a copy of the US Army Cookbook for 1883, and 1896, and 1910, and 1916, and 1944, and 1946.]

A long ton (2240 pounds) of balanced Class A rations takes up 94 cubic feet of shipping space. Five long tons of 2,240 pounds takes up 470 cubic feet of shipping space, just a fraction less than the 476.748 cubic feet of the standard Traveller dTon of 13.5 cubic meters. The weight does include packaging, and your standard ration, including packaging, will weigh 6 pounds per man per day. It will supply him or her with 4200 calories per day.

The Class A ration is:

This is the basic field ration. It consists of approximately 200 items, including such perishables as fresh and frozen meats, vegetables, and fruit. It is intended for use primarily under stable conditions and during static phases of military operations when normal cooking and refrigeration facilities are available. Page 222, FM 101-10, Staff Officers' Field Manual-Organization, Technical,and Logistical Data, Part 1, February 1959, United States Department of the Army.

It would be equivalent to the old 1896 and following garrison ration.

 

[BlackBat242]

Royal Marines officers ration pack. :rofl:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kQ3_o7F7mqY

 

[Orr]

It will supply him or her with 4200 calories per day.

So 4200 calories per day for active troops? Would you also happen to know what the suggested daily calories for other "occupations" may be?

 

[Adam Dray]

Pure sugar isn't the most calorie-dense food. And it's pure carbs, lacking in protein and fat.

Pure sugar: 9 calories / 2.3 g (3.9 calories per gram)

Food	Calories per Gram
Avocado	1.6
Table sugar	3.9
Dried prunes	3.39
Beef brisket	3.58
Hard goat cheese	4.52
Peanut butter	5.9
Dark chocolate	5.98
Sesame butter (Tahini)	5.95
Macadamia nuts	7.18
Fish oil	9.02

 

[kilemall]

They say you are the man for different caloric and water needs for my logistical calcs. So let's start with a simple one, how much does weight of the soldier to be fed feed into food/water needs?

At what point would lack of water, then of food, start resulting in 'hits' being taken by an unsupplied person?

I'm thinking your average merc platoon is going to require at least a Type A worth of cargo hold just to stay in the field for longer then a week.

Oh wait, I can extrapolate from your extant post.

So 1 Traveller ton = 1866 man-days of full calorie rations.

Say we have a platoon plus support of 50, that's 37 days of rations- per ton.

A desultory cutter run then should keep our boys in chow. Roughly 20 tons for 1000 men per month.

On half rations, which would not do for active troops but will for survival situations, double that, which gives us a working figure for relief efforts/black market smuggling.

Alrighty then, water, which is going to be an issue even if there is water on the rock our mercs are on (one word, exocontamination, including stuff the filter systems are not prepared for).

Depending on the situation, that could really be a huge amount of tonnage. For our future soldiers, have to assume a major initiative would be to reuse the water you brought as much as possible, meaning stilsuits and recycling waste.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...rt_operations/water-usage-in-desert-ope.shtml

 

[Timerover51]

They say you are the man for different caloric and water needs for my logistical calcs. So let's start with a simple one, how much does weight of the soldier to be fed feed into food/water needs?

At what point would lack of water, then of food, start resulting in 'hits' being taken by an unsupplied person?

I'm thinking your average merc platoon is going to require at least a Type A worth of cargo hold just to stay in the field for longer then a week.

Oh wait, I can extrapolate from your extant post.

So 1 Traveller ton = 1866 man-days of full calorie rations.

Say we have a platoon plus support of 50, that's 37 days of rations- per ton.

A desultory cutter run then should keep our boys in chow. Roughly 20 tons for 1000 men per month.

On half rations, which would not do for active troops but will for survival situations, double that, which gives us a working figure for relief efforts/black market smuggling.

Alrighty then, water, which is going to be an issue even if there is water on the rock our mercs are on (one word, exocontamination, including stuff the filter systems are not prepared for).

Depending on the situation, that could really be a huge amount of tonnage. For our future soldiers, have to assume a major initiative would be to reuse the water you brought as much as possible, meaning stilsuits and recycling waste.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...rt_operations/water-usage-in-desert-ope.shtml

The basic calorie requirement was set based on the calorie needs of a company of men, say 160 to 180 pounds, operating in January near Hudson Bay in Canada. I have a copy of the study in the Quartermaster reports made following World War 2. Considering that a sedentary individual needs about 2500 calories a day, that give you a big fudge factor, and also accounts for the fact that you always have people that never eat the full ration.

As for water, the standard budget is for one gallon per man per day for drinking purposes. Even with troops in stilsuits and recycling waste, you are likely to need more than that basic quantity. After a couple of days in stilsuits, your troops are going to want a shower, probably a good long one, and time to relax without the suits. Then water for cooking and laundry, for when your troops are not wearing the stilsuits. The standard budget is 5 gallons per day per man for a temporary camp without bathing, 15 gallons per day with bathing. I am not sure how much water recycling equipment is going to be carried by the average merc outfit, and you also have to factor in the operational environment. With reasonably good recycling, you might want to budget 5 gallons per man per day for water, unless you are in a near-totally contained environment. Are your troops going to be wearing stilsuits in a temperate climate at say 20 degree Celsius? Are you going to have included in the unit personnel to maintain the recycling equipment, maintain the stilsuits, and do things like cooking, and monitoring supplies? Class A rations are not simply stuff in a can to be heated up, but bulk supplies like flour, sugar, coffee, and the like, where you do have to prepare meals using the components.

In the World War 2 class that I am presently teaching, we keep stressing to the students that sending troops overseas for combat purposes is not an easy proposition. They are learning about the concept of the "divisional slice", which is the number of men required over and above the number in the division to adequately support the division in combat. For the US, the "divisional slice" in World War 2 was 40,000, about 15,000 in the division and about 25,000 supporting it. That did not include the roughly 5000 aviation personnel presumably furnishing air support for that division. For the British, the "divisional slice" was 35,000, again about 15,000 in the division and 20,000 in support in various ways.

Another useful concept is the pounds of supply per day per man required to adequately sustain him in the combat theater. Depending on the theater of operations, be it Europe, Pacific, Far East (China-Burma-India), and Polar Regions. In Europe, the pounds of supply per man per day was 66.8 pounds, while for Polar Regions, it was 81.14. Now, that is for large organized units, not platoon-sized forces, but even they are going to need some form of organized supply support.

 

[kilemall]

Is that final pounds per day stat measuring just total human support, or including ammo/POL?

 

[Adam Dray]

And does that include pack, bedding, and other non-consumables?

 

[Timerover51]

Is that final pounds per day stat measuring just total human support, or including ammo/POL?

That includes ammunition, POL, engineer construction material, replacement clothing and equipment, medical, QM sales (PX supplies), signal, chemical, transportation, spare parts, and proportioned Air Force ammunition and fuel. Essentially everything required to feed, house, care for, equip, and support a soldier in an overseas assignment. Then the theater, based on shipping time and local availability would set a specific number or reserve days of supply to provide for shipping problems and line of communication issues. The days of supply could be anywhere from 60 to 180 days.

For example, after the Pearl Harbor attack, Hawaii was requisitioning supplies on the basis of 60 days of supply for 42,000 men. Because of the inability of the Hawaiian Islands to produce sufficient food to feed the island population, an initial supply level for civilian food was set for 6 months of non-perishable food items and a 30-day supply of perishable items.

 

[kilemall]

Ahh, that makes it real simple from a weight perspective, although not necessarily a volume one like we deal with.

One thing this exercise clarifies, food supplies are pretty easy to move, water is going to be the big personal item, and of course the mix of the rest of it is going to change based on TL.

POL for instance would transmute to L-Hyd or fuel cells for a grav force, and munitions may or may not be a big load factor based on dependence on DEWs or missiles of one sort or another.

Whether to bring in heavy equipment will be a HUGE logistical decision. The bigger the fist, the bigger the tail.

 

[Timerover51]

Ahh, that makes it real simple from a weight perspective, although not necessarily a volume one like we deal with.

One thing this exercise clarifies, food supplies are pretty easy to move, water is going to be the big personal item, and of course the mix of the rest of it is going to change based on TL.

POL for instance would transmute to L-Hyd or fuel cells for a grav force, and munitions may or may not be a big load factor based on dependence on DEWs or missiles of one sort or another.

Whether to bring in heavy equipment will be a HUGE logistical decision. The bigger the fist, the bigger the tail.

Those are World War 2 figures. It is a lot worse now, with the large number of fuel-hungry vehicles. In World War 2, an Armored Division needed 200 tons of supplies a day, most if it POL. Now, it needs a 1,000 tons a day, most of it POL, and larger trucks which burn more fuel to deliver all of those supplies. The number of people in support is higher, but the number needed is to some extent hidden by the large amount of civilian contract labor used. That is not counted against the troop overhead. For a Brigade on up, figure 2 in support for every one in the combat unit.

 

[kilemall]

Thanks for the clarification, I won't sweat the big guy vs. little guy calorie thing for survival or combat.

What about the 'when do you start taking hits' part of being short on supply?

 

[Timerover51]

Thanks for the clarification, I won't sweat the big guy vs. little guy calorie thing for survival or combat.

What about the 'when do you start taking hits' part of being short on supply?

I going back and looking for a thread, I came across this and realized that I had never answered the question.

Basically, figure 24 hours for no water as the maximum for not taking "hits" for lack of supply. After about 4 days, you are in really serious trouble, and getting close to dying. It does depend on the climate and surrounding to a small extent.

As for food, you could get by for maybe 4 days or so before taking "hits", but then things get progressively worse faster. A lot depends on the amount of body fat on an individual and whether or not water is available. With water, you can string it out a bit further, but no food will have effects that last for a while when again fed. Note, near-starving individuals require a special diet so their body can recover from the starvation.

 

[kilemall]

Thanks for the answers!

 

[Quint]

Also, keep in mind that for things like food consumption, the activities that are being engaged in drive the need for calories pretty hard. So, sitting in camp, with a ready supply of survival rations allows for much more "stretching" of resources than if they are having to hunt and gather food...

I have to say that as screwy as the show is, "Naked and Afraid" isn't bad for showing the effects of survival and starvation in hardship areas.

D.

 

[Carlobrand]

There's also a physiological need to have something in the stomach and intestines. It can be almost pure dietary fiber if the nutrient needs (sufficient simple sugars, fluids, and minerals) are injected into the bloodstream; there needs to be enough nutrient to feed the gut flora. Otherwise, the flora attack the gut for sustenance and create other complications.

I think if you really, really had to bypass the mouth for some suited feller, a gastric tube would do the job, though it'd play hell with recruitment. Just a straw they could suck on, coming up from whatever nutrient reservoir the suit kept, would be more practical and less invasive. Only challenge there is making the straw work practically rather than having it poke him in the cheek or something.