And yet you accept that a factor 9 laser battery (usually 10 triple TL 13+ BLaser turrets, but may also be 30 single ones) can only fire a single ship (even a single fighter) in this 20 minutes span...
System Defense Fleets
- Thread starter Murph
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And yet you accept that a factor 9 laser battery (usually 10 triple TL 13+ BLaser turrets, but may also be 30 single ones) can only fire a single ship (even a single fighter) in this 20 minutes span...
Sure there are Varg HiTech HiPop (as Lair itself) planets able to build them, but vargr society is depicted as unstable, while those fleet building programs need stability.
- How many Traveller canon references have you seen to those ships in Vargr hands?
- How many Vargr empirees exist that can build them?
- How many vargr "Emperors" would entrust another Vargr one of them (allowing him enough Charisma increase as to challenge him)
- How probable do you see some of those planets to join for long enough time to take those campaigns against the Imperium (before they begin to, at least, misstrust each other)?
- How many losses would this Alliance be willing to endure in such raids before they retreat (and compare with the losses expected in such cases)?
- And finally, even in a Vargr planet manages to build such a fleet, how in the hell could they overcome (to give you an example) Gemid (Vland 1903), a TL 16 HiPop client state (so we can assume with a larger than usual planetary fleet, that did not leave for Lucan's wars).
I really see the Vargr invasions as the least credible part of the Rebellion (but at the same time, a part that makes the scenario more interesting), and can only be explained as a "deus ex machina" (or script need), only aceptable if you don't try to look for any logic on it.
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Beat me to it. If you look at Canon, most Vargr ships are TL 11/12 and bands seldom last very long, so getting a Fleet together with all the support needed and trusting a Charismatic Vargr to control it long enough to do something......
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The invasions of the MT era are not corsair bands, they are the equivalent of Vargr pocket empires.
As to canon Vargr fleets see FFW, then there is the Traveller Adventure where a Vargr group want the Imperial meson guns to fit to ships they have already built.
As to canon Vargr fleets see FFW, then there is the Traveller Adventure where a Vargr group want the Imperial meson guns to fit to ships they have already built.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
And most Imperial ships are TL9/10... if you look at CT sources.
Canonically the Vargr can build up to TL14/15.
And like I said, you are not talking Vargr corsair bands invading the Imperium but actual Vargr states.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Odd, because when I read CT AM Vargr they are presented as quite an accomplished race...
How many canon references are there to Zhodani capital ships or Solomani? The FFW has TL14 Vargr BBs etc.
more than two
The Vargr emperor? lol - go read the source material again - without prejudice this time.
Ther are many Vargre states equivalent to subsector or quadrant size, with high pop and high TL worlds. More than capable.
You have a false premiss - it s not an alliance or a band, it is a Vargr state expanding into Imperial territory.
All they need is a three to one advantage in ships to achieve space superioty and then they drop rocks. Always assuming you accept the ridiculous TL inflation that DGP wrote into the setting (Imperium is TL15 maximum according to pre-MT sources).
Only because you refuse to see the Vargr for what they really are - do not be fooled by the Imperial propaganda of comical doggies.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Vargr civilizations can reach tech level fifteen, but require political stability to achieve this.
The industrial base may also be inconsistent.
Since they are subject to the Motie Dilemma, maintaining the civilization and it's associated tech level, may require increasing amounts of repression. Then, a Rebel Alliance is formed, and the Vargr Emperor is thrown down a shaft.
The industrial base may also be inconsistent.
Since they are subject to the Motie Dilemma, maintaining the civilization and it's associated tech level, may require increasing amounts of repression. Then, a Rebel Alliance is formed, and the Vargr Emperor is thrown down a shaft.
By the way that was parts for one spinal mount, and it was stolen goods. I wonder how long it takes for a Vargr band to build a capital ship compared to the length of time it takes in imperial space, surely there would be interruptions.
Gee thanks. Now I have an image of a Death Star II in the shape of a grinning wolf's head.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Space Station Fenris.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
Oh I don't personally, the upcoming High Gearhead version of mashing together CT and HG (and now Mayday if I can) would have energy allocation allowing multiple shots, but then again it's intended for small ship/squadron command/tactics drama, not 100 megaships slugging it out.
Hell, original CT had the lasers firing 3x, primary attack, anti-missile and return fire. Actually worked out how that was done from a power perspective, although Return Fire is a bit of fluff I likely won't bring forward.
Not to mention Double Fire, which is practically begging for notice that lasers are not a one turn/one shot weapon system.
It's looking good, just have to nail down the damage functions really and make for an easier maneuver (hence the Mayday part).
To be honest, I've read more about them in this board than seen in canon, but I lack many books and suplements, mostly from CT era (few of them reached Barcelona). In any case, Zhodani and Solomani fleets are depicted in all supplements as unified, powerful and long planned entities, that sure have those heavy, HiTech ships, while Vargr are rarely depicted in such a way.
Where are they?
The few Vargr squadrons (2 BatDrons, 3 CruDrons, 1 AsltDron and 1 TankDron) in the vargr countermix are considered Low Zhodani for effects of Squadron Quality rule, so at the level of Sword World ships (TL10-12), and receive column shifts against them even against the Imperial Colonial Fleets (Low Imperial quality). All of this (along with their J3 only capability) hints me that they are well under TL 14...
And for their ground troops, where TL is specified (and easier to upgrade in TL than ships), they are all TL 10-13, so 2-5 TL's under Imperial Standard
And how long can they have their fleets away without being themselves threatened by other similar entities or corsairs?
See that the world Emperor was between quotation marks, so I was not talking about a Vargr Emperor, but what they see as Emperors (or Prince, if you prefer, one of the archetypes in their histories, according CT:AM1 and MT:V&V)
I'd say it's more a wrong choice of words.
When I said an Alliance, I meant any multi-system political entity. Even Vargr Pocket Empires, while existing, are not too stable (according CT:AM1 and MT:V&V) and face multiple threats in their borders.
And, in any case, MT talks more about raiders and corsair alliances than about Vargr pocket empires trying to expand.
Several points here
- I'm not sure just a three to one is enough to defeat the planetary fleet of such a system that would have more than a single TL advantage
- Droping rocks is useful on a punitive raid, not if you intend to either plunder or conquest a planet
- Regardless what you (or myself, for what's worth) can think about the TL inflation in MT, is as canon as the vargr invasions
- In the specific case of Gemid, even it being TL 16 won't affect maximum imperial TL, as it's not an Imperial world, but a client state
I see the Vargr as they are depicted (or as I understand it) in CT:AM1 and MT:V&V. According what I understand about them, they are an accomplished race, but also a unstable one.
Due to their charisma following tendences (for lack of better words to describe it), they tend to fall apart when their leaders are out of touch and a charicmatic leader appears. And, as this is just the situation it may happen if you give a subordinate (no matter how trusted) a powerful squadron (let's say a TL15 Tender/rider one), my take is that those squadorns will be (at most) rare, out of fear of an "Aldmiral" becoming too charismatic and deciding he is no longer compeled to follow his Prince.
So, IMHO:
Are vargr capable to build such powerful squadrons?
sure
Do they build them?
not so sure
Do they send them far away to plunder the Imperium?
very dubious, as their Squadron Leaders can become too charismatic, too powerful and too far from their Princes to keep being his subordinates, and the prince risks to lose them even if they win. And in the meanwhile, you have weakend your own Pocket Empire to neighbouring ones (can you trust them?) or the ever present corsair/raider bands.
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Sure, but I've never read any criticism to those laser batteries (or enenrgy weapons ones, for what's worth) having only a single shoot,even against fighter swarms (where logical thing would be to disperse their fire, if you have enough gunners), while the fact only a single spinal mount may be mounted has received quite a lot of them.
Many people sees (always keeping all the distances) the spinal as the equivalent to a WWII BB main battery, while I see it more like the ram of an ACW Ironclad: a decisive weapon (when hits) that can only be mounted when well achored to the keel (in this case the spine) of the ship, and so, limited to a single weapon by its own definition.
And as the ram, it takes long to change target for it...
But that's my way to see them, and so not more right (or wrong) than anyone else's (in other words, YMMV)...
Excellent post. I cannot find my copy of Fifth Frontier War (FFW), I have lost so much in moves over the last 30+ years.
As far as the multiple mounts of spinal mesons think on this , put a deep meson site in an asteroid then strap some maneuver drives on it... the meson sites are spherical and can be pointed in any direction regardless of the facing the complaint about them is the enormous interior volume they take up. You could have a configuration 7 ship with a folding deep meson site or three on the "exterior". Or convert the docking bay for a spherical battle rider into a deep meson site when the riders are away, folding it back down when (if) they return.
When you look at them the meson guns and PA's consist of some electromagnets and empty space for the beams, there is not a whole lot there to see. The problem is in the alignment of the magnets needs to be precise to within the diameter of an atom, but perhaps some clever engineer can solve that problem.
When you look at them the meson guns and PA's consist of some electromagnets and empty space for the beams, there is not a whole lot there to see. The problem is in the alignment of the magnets needs to be precise to within the diameter of an atom, but perhaps some clever engineer can solve that problem.
And I've never seen any described spherical BRs, I guess because they would need to have the full length of the spinal as diameter (making them larger than needed, though this is not featured in the rules), because they would be more difficult to build hangart for (again, not featured in the rules) and because spherical configuration is less resistent to MG fire.
And, in any case, what advantage would this have over the same having true BRs, that would avoid risking the Tender and being lost all in a single hit?
A planet may have several such deep Meson sites, as you tell, because it has (on the practical maters) unlimited volume to have them, but you could not have them into a ship, unless it's really enormous, as you need an spherical structure with the full length of the spinal as diameter.
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As a thought, you could have several asteroids large enough to house multiple deep meson guns, which could serve as defensive points in an asteroid belt.
List_of_exceptional_asteroids
Ceres is over halfway to being a size 1 planet, but even the smallest on that list could surely house multiple deep meson guns. YMMV.
List_of_exceptional_asteroids
Ceres is over halfway to being a size 1 planet, but even the smallest on that list could surely house multiple deep meson guns. YMMV.
Sure, but, why to do so?
Ceres could hold many deep meson guns, but is too large to make it mobile, so it would be a fixed "deep space fort" in the middle of the planetoid belt, to defend what?
Unless it's close enough to someting that needs to be defended (incluiding itself), it is really useless; and, to have a large asteroid moved to orbit to defend a planet (the only fixed positions worth having those fixed defenses), it would be better to put the deep meson sites in the planet itself...
But, as you said, YMMV
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Resupply points for SDBs come to mind. Rallying points maybe? Denial of asteroid belt refueling? Sheer mean cussedness? :devil:
