T5 Personal Combat System Review, Opinion, and Problems

[Supplement Four]

Confusion

I'm confused.

OK, look at page 241. There is says that Hit System V1 is the NPC Quick System and Hit System V2 is the standard system where dice are thrown for weapon damage.

Page 214 and page 222 tells us that with NPCs, we ignore damage of 9 or less and take an NPC out of the fight if damage is 10+. This is Hit System V1, explained on page 241.

Now, looking at the GunMaker Categories chart on page 251, NONE of the numbers in the Hits (V1) column are even close to 10. Even an Artillery Gun does only 2 Hits under the V1 system. So, I'm guessing that those are base numbers that will be added to as the weapon goes through the GunMaker process. For example, when a person making a weapon gets to pae 252, we add more V1 Hits to the weapon.



Question 1: Why have the two systems, V1 and V2 on the charts? I mean, if damage for a weapon is expressed in terms of Dice, then just roll damage and check to see if damage is 10+ for NPCs.



Question 2: Since the V1 and V2 aspects are on the GunMaker charts, how is V1 reflected in the sample GunMaker outputs on page 240?


Has anybody figured this out?

 

[cuTTer]

Now, looking at the GunMaker Categories chart on page 251, NONE of the numbers in the Hits (V1) column are even close to 10. Even an Artillery Gun does only 2 Hits under the V1 system. So, I'm guessing that those are base numbers that will be added to as the weapon goes through the GunMaker process.

It's not 2 hits, it's 2 dice, or 2D in CT parlance.

So, for example, fancy damage for a PGMP is PEN-5 Burn-3, quick damage is a straight 8D.

(writing this from memory, excuse me if the numbers are off by a bit...)

 

[BytePro]

RE: Hits systems V1, V2, ...

With the benefit (sic) of not having the RAW to read, I'm gonna take a stab at the intent of the mechanics (i.e. interpretation of what I am taking away from posts).

• V1 sounds like CT - i.e., apply damage to stats.
• With option for NPCs, that IF damage is 10+, don't even go to that level of detail, just toss the NPC.
• AND, a (V0?) option that ignores anything less than 10+ for NPCs.

That last looks useful for hordes/mooks against PC weapons designed for quickly dealing with such.

As for V2 - that sounds like the system dropping down to a further level of detail entailing location based damage and the type (nature) of damage.

BTW: The 'number of Hits' sounds like multiple rolls of X damage die. With location and combination damage types (Bang/Burn/etc), it sounds like the V2 system works with several rolls, right?

 

[Supplement Four]

RE: Hits systems V1, V2, ...


With the benefit (sic) of not having the RAW to read, I'm gonna take a stab at the intent of the mechanics (i.e. interpretation of what I am taking away from posts).

• V1 sounds like CT - i.e., apply damage to stats.
• With option for NPCs, that IF damage is 10+, don't even go to that level of detail, just toss the NPC.
• AND, a (V0?) option that ignores anything less than 10+ for NPCs.

That last looks useful for hordes/mooks against PC weapons designed for quickly dealing with such.

As for V2 - that sounds like the system dropping down to a further level of detail entailing location based damage and the type (nature) of damage.

V0 is the old CT damage system

V1, according ot the book, is the NPC quick system.

V2, according to the book, also seems to be the old CT damage system.




I think it's a typo eratta. Marc must have went with V0/V1 at one time, then switched to V1/V2 without changing the reference in all places.

 

[Supplement Four]

It's not 2 hits, it's 2 dice, or 2D in CT parlance.

I thought that originally, too, but now I'm not so sure.

If this is true, then why are the two damage columns sometimes different?

Page 251: An Autocannon does 5D damage (D1 column), but the Hits (V1) column reads 3.

If you look around the GunMaker tables, you'll see several examples like that.

On page 251, all of the Artillery numbers don't line up. Neither do the Launchers.

On page 252, look a the Spray Designators and the EMP Projectors.

And, on page 260, where many weapons in the D1 column have damage types "=C1", this has go to mean equal to STR in damage point, not damage dice.

On that page 260, look at the Big Knife, the Great Big Knife, the Space Axe, the Club, and all the Body Weapons (especially, the Tentical).

 

[Supplement Four]

So, for example, fancy damage for a PGMP is PEN-5 Burn-3, quick damage is a straight 8D.

I wonder about this, too.

I thought we're supposed to roll the different damage types separately. Thus, if this weapon were pitted against an enemy wearing AV 31 armor, it could not penetrate.

We're roll Pen-5 vs. AV 31. Not possible to penetrate.

Then, we'd roll Burn-3 vs. AV 31. Not possible.

But, for NPCs, we just throw 8D vs. AV 31, ignoring totals of 40* or less?



*Because, with Hit System V1, we ignore damage of 9 or less.

 

[BytePro]

Okay, so 2 basic hit/damage/injury systems:

A simple abstract damage system very much like CT, with 2 options for more quickly dealing with NPCs.

A more detailed expanded system detailing nature and location of injuries/damage.​

Additionally, with limited damage, handguns and fisticuff attacks are generally not gonna result in one round scenarios.

This, at least, seems pretty darn reasonable - and playable - to me. Heck it conceptually matches a number of house systems I've experimented with (3D max, though).

 

[BytePro]

I thought that originally, too, but now I'm not so sure.

If this is true, then why are the two damage columns sometimes different?

Page 251: An Autocannon does 5D damage (D1 column), but the Hits (V1) column reads 3.

That's what I would expect - the difference being that the nature of the damage would affect the severity of an injury aside from just stat reduction.

Such as - I can no longer hear, plus reduced END in the more detailed (V2?) version. While the simplier (V1?) would just lump that sensory damage abstractly into the stat reductions... (i.e. a reduction in DEX could be assumed to reflect hearing damage).

 

[Supplement Four]

Okay, so 2 basic hit/damage/injury systems:

A simple abstract damage system very much like CT, with 2 options for more quickly dealing with NPCs.

A more detailed expanded system detailing nature and location of injuries/damage.
​

Additionally, with limited damage, handguns and fisticuff attacks are generally not gonna result in one round scenarios.

This, at least, seems pretty darn reasonable - and playable - to me. Heck it conceptually matches a number of house systems I've experimented with (3D max, though).

I don't read it like that. I see two options in the book (both, very simple, but confusing on the weapon tables).

System V0/V2 - This is the standard CT damage system where dice are applied to stats.

System V1 - This is the quick NPC damage system where damage of 9- is ignored and damage of 10+ takes the NPC out.

 

[BytePro]

What about the location and nature of damage stuff?

 

[cuTTer]

I thought that originally, too, but now I'm not so sure.

If this is true, then why are the two damage columns sometimes different?

I think it's just lack of care. If I recall correctly, all the Hv1 numbers on p.252 exactly match their D2+D3 counterparts, whereas some of the values on p.251 don't match. My explination, p.252 was proofread/playtested, p.251 wasn't. It not a great answer, but lacking context or design notes explaining intent, that's really all I'm left with...

On that page 260, look at the Big Knife, the Great Big Knife, the Space Axe, the Club, and all the Body Weapons (especially, the Tentical).

I got nuthin'

 

[Supplement Four]

What about the location and nature of damage stuff?

You don't worry about that until Medical Treatment is attempted. So, during a combat, hit location and severity isn't figured.

The only thing you mess with in combat is damage, and that is applied in the CT fashion if the damage penetrates.

After a combat, when medical treatment is applied, roll on a table for Hit Location (I guess the system assumes a single hit) and check for wound severity. Severity is only used for the Medical tasks.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think it's just lack of care. If I recall correctly, all the Hv1 numbers on p.252 exactly match their D2+D3 counterparts, whereas some of the values on p.251 don't match. My explination, p.252 was proofread/playtested, p.251 wasn't. It not a great answer, but lacking context or design notes explaining intent, that's really all I'm left with...

This is why I reasoned that the Hits (V1) column were solid numbers, not dice. Otherwise, if you are correct, why even have the Hits (V1) column when it duplicates information already on the chart?

I really dunno. Just guessing.

I got nuthin'

LOL!:rofl:

 

[Spartan159]

(especially, the Tentical).

It's super-effective in Japan!

 

[BytePro]

... during a combat, hit location and severity isn't figured.
...

This is why I reasoned that the Hits (V1) column were solid numbers, not dice. Otherwise, if you are correct, why even have the Hits (V1) column when it duplicates information already on the chart?

I really dunno. Just guessing.

My gut says you've got some wrong notions regarding the (intended) hit mechanics.

I don't have the book, and even if I did there is a very good chance I could mis-read what Marc meant - so forgive me for thinking that might be the case with your own interpretations.

Without good examples, we really can't know...

 

[Supplement Four]

My gut says you've got some wrong notions regarding the (intended) hit mechanics.

Oh, sure, it's MEEEE that's wrong and not the rule book that is full of broken and ugly rules!!!!!:devil:

 

[aramis]

Rules usually make perfect sense to the author as written....

 

[Licheking]

I have used the GunMaker extensively designing all the weapons from the various Traveller games i have access too and to make more, i Love firearms and firearms design systems. My favorite is 3G by BTRC a generic system that makes very realistic weapon designs based around some real physics. Then there's Fire, Fusion and Steel the system design for MT.

On the GunMaker charts you have 7 columns for damage and damage type although 4 of them are folded into single columns because they can sometimes represent the same thing. You have H1, H2 and H3, then D1, D2 and D3, and finally V1. H1, H2 and H3 are the types of damage from the V2 system, so Bullet, Bang, Blast, Frag etc. The D1, D2 and D3 are the amount of dice damage done by those same types of Effect. The V1 column is the damage if you are only using the CT style damage system in dice.

So a Handgun does Bullet-1 base, H1 is Bullet, D1 is 1, in the old CT system V1 is 1D. If you then add Snub to it, looking at the chart it has no H entries, but does have a D entry of 1, so your handgun now does Bullet-2, or under the V1 2D.

Yes there are some errors on the charts but once you spot them they are easily rectified, and i must say its a little too abstract for my tastes but i like it for T5 since its immediately compatible.

 

[cuTTer]

So a Handgun does Bullet-1 base, H1 is Bullet, D1 is 1, in the old CT system V1 is 1D. If you then add Snub to it, looking at the chart it has no H entries, but does have a D entry of 1, so your handgun now does Bullet-2, or under the V1 2D.

Yes there are some errors on the charts but once you spot them they are easily rectified, and i must say its a little too abstract for my tastes but i like it for T5 since its immediately compatible.

Snub's not a bad example to illustrate one of the issues I have with GunMaker, separating typographical error from design error or even design intent.

Handgun does Bullet-1, agreed (well, I don't really agree that it should, but that's for a different thread). Now we Snub it up. Tech Level goes up by one, range gets set to 2, weight goes down, qreBs goes down but damage and cost go up.

So for an additional 50% cost we've doubled the weapon's damage, seems like a pretty good deal.

But look at the text on p.246 for Snub.

"Snub The weapon is specifically designed to be easy to carry and operate, but at a cost in range and effect."

Easier to carry? Well, it weighs less so, okay. Easier to operate? Not until we get those fast-draw rules incorporating qreBs (oh nooooes). A cost to range? Nope, not for a handgun, base range 2 is reinforced but not reduced. A cost to effect? Quite the opposite, effect is +1, so for a pistol, doubled.

Is the error with the text? The numbers?

While we're here let's contrast Snub with Body, the text for which is also on p.246.

"Body (applies only to Pistols and Revolvers). The Pistol or Revolver is light-weight and ergonomically designed."

Sounds similar to Snub, expecting weight and qreBs reductions. And there they are, qreBs -4, so better than a Snubber (that'll be all those fancy ergonomics that cost it an additional TL point). But wait, that all comes at a cost. Range is halved to 1, bit of a bum deal compared to the Snubber. Damage is also reduced by 1, quite the kick in the teeth compared to Snubbies +1 and super harsh considering it reduced the Body Pistol's damage to...zero...

At treble the cost.

Pistol TL 5 R 2 M 1.1 B 0 D 1 Cr 150
Snub TL 6 R 2 M 0.8 B -3 D 2 Cr 225
Body TL 7 R 1 M 0.6 B -4 D 0 Cr 450

So while merciless PCs rampage around the place building Snub Battle Rifles, Snub ACRs and Snub PGMPs, the Body Pistol turns out to be T5s new term for a starting pistol.

On your marks...

Get set..

Go.

 

[Licheking]

True. But my interpretation of Snub is a cut down barrel which in the real world has no effect on the damage so much as the range. Still if you don't like Snubs doing more damage or as i think may have happened trough a typo ignore the increase in damage and reduce the range like the Body pistol. I don't reduce the damage of a body pistol anyway, as long as its a slugthrower since all the barrel length does is increase accuracy (Range). If the pistol is an energy weapon though, then i see no reason why the damage shouldn't be reduced for a body pistol since the laser is all about the length of barrel.