T5 Status, 10/6/2014

[Ulsyus]

There's also a lot of bookkeeping that I'm not crazy about. For example, any armored hit location that is damaged fails to provide protection for the remainder of the encounter. This can be a real head ache for the Ref if he's got several wounded NPC's--having to keep up with who got hit where. And, players will have to record or remember where they where hit in previous rounds if hit a second or third time.

That's an excellent point. Having a modified character sheet to deal with this would be useful. If not collected on the char sheet, then a separate PCS sheet for PCs and NPCs to track all the penetrations and damages would be a real benefit.

Though of course, we don't have to use the location component of the PCS, though it does add nice detail.

 

[robject]

I don't think we should be hashing this out here.

Granted, but...

1. Figure range to target in order to roll a number of dice for the attack throw.

2. Figure the Size of the target, then subtract that from Range, to use as a modifier.

The ref will have these numbers.

3. Add in misc. modifiers, the the Tactics mod, target crouching, whatever.

4. Then roll to-hit, add up all dice and all modifiers and check this against the target number of Characteristic + Skill.

THAT requires player interaction. I'd prefer all the modifiers get added into the target number, but meh.

5. We roll hit location [...]

6. Check to see if that part of the body is covered with armor. If it is, note the armor's Armor Value in that hit location.

7. Then we roll a number of dice for the damage of the weapon and compare to the AV, checking for penetration and counting any damage.

Hit location and damage can be rolled simultaneously - probably ought to be - with the player choosing which one he wants to roll and letting the ref roll the other one.

8. There can be several damage rolls

It's reasonable. That's not how we played it. But it's reasonable. I actually LIKE multiple hit locations and damage rolls from one attack... if hit location can be folded into another roll, that is.

9. Implement any misc. effects [...]

10. Target applies damage to his stats. Each damage die is rolled randomly, so if a character is hit with 3D damage, then that's three more rolls to determine, randomly, where each damage die will go.

I dislike separating the damage to stats from the penetration roll.

And frankly, the bookkeeping angle is going to be simplified in my games: hit locations will wound the NPC, and may warrant a note like "leg hit" when AV is overcome. I play combat with a dozen combatants on either side; simplifications will happen, and critical hits will be the way I track NPC damage.

Yes, players will have to record the state of their characters. It would help to be able to mark wounds and damage on a character line image.

 

[Supplement Four]

Supplement Four - I know you're looking at a draft that I haven't seen yet, and I'll go away and think about what you've said. But an initial reaction from me is that a lot of those calculations are effectively performed once - e.g. the C+S for a character and the size of the target and are then used repeatedly.

You're thinking of this from the player's point of view, running just one character.

I'm coming at it from the poor old Ref's out there who have to govern not only all the PCs, but ever NPC. For the Ref, simple, one-time calculations may not be done once, but many times, for different characters.

I play combat with a dozen combatants on either side; simplifications will happen, and critical hits will be the way I track NPC damage.

But, isn't the idea to provide a great set of rules, not a set that people are going to house rule because they don't like what's written or think what's written is too finicky and needs simplification?

 

[Licheking]

Yes, players will have to record the state of their characters. It would help to be able to mark wounds and damage on a character line image.

This has been covered.

And speaking as a ref i don't see this version of combat as much different from previous versions, where you had to roll to hit with various modifiers or a target number based on range, then roll for or compare penetration of the weapon and then apply damage. The only new element to this system is the hit location which could be dropped if people don't want that level of granularity or they want to mook up the npc's.

The amount of bookkeeping for the players and the refs are about the same as previous versions and the new combat system does address this issue very well in my opinion.

 

[robject]

But, isn't the idea to provide a great set of rules, not a set that people are going to house rule because they don't like what's written or think what's written is too finicky and needs simplification?

Sure, but one set of rules might not cover all gaming situations. Just the same old balance between complexity for wargames and simplicity for casual gamers, versus complexity for only a few combatants and simplicity for larger numbers.

Perhaps rules can dial-back on the abstractness scale, and perhaps not. When I sit down to write how I think combat should go I always have more detail than I want to account for, but I want to somehow bake it in so I can have it without having to think about it.

Warning: going on a tangent now

I recently saw a comment that no-one has really tried to design a "good" Traveller combat game dedicated to the deckplan. It's not considered a playable situation. And yet it's what attracts all sorts of people to games -- something to look at, perhaps.

 

[Supplement Four]

Well, if I'm out-voted on this, then I'm out-voted. I'm just one voice among five, and in the end, Marc gets the final say.

With all these rolls, though, it won't be my cup of tea.

But, hey, I think the task system is way too finicky, too. And, that's not going anywhere, so what do I know.

All I can do is just send in my opinion and hope that my point makes sense to the voices that matter.

 

[robject]

No problem here. All this does is clarify how futile it is to design for "Traveller fans" in general. In any case, targeting a particular audience such as "people who like space themed combat games of a given complexity and playing time" is going to be far more constructive.


Getting a playable, functioning game is far more important than satisfying the peanut gallery. Of course, that's not to say you shouldn't look into making scenarios and variations to address their concerns later (thoughtful example scenarios are always a nice touch.) But that's waaaaaay down the road in the post-design finishing/development phase.

 

[OjnoTheRed]

Well, if I'm out-voted on this, then I'm out-voted. I'm just one voice among five, and in the end, Marc gets the final say.

With all these rolls, though, it won't be my cup of tea.

But, hey, I think the task system is way too finicky, too. And, that's not going anywhere, so what do I know.

All I can do is just send in my opinion and hope that my point makes sense to the voices that matter.

As a relative spectator (a very interested one, though!) can I just encourage you by saying your criticism of the T5 PCS made me go away and think. When I started experimenting with running PCS, I started to understand the issues. So even if other people don't agree, raising the issues you see helps everyone. You've had an impact on this discussion, and were an obvious pick for the review - your role has been the "black hat" which may not make you popular but someone has to raise reasons why something may not work so we can improve an idea.

 

[Ulsyus]

Perhaps rules can dial-back on the abstractness scale, and perhaps not. When I sit down to write how I think combat should go I always have more detail than I want to account for, but I want to somehow bake it in so I can have it without having to think about it.

Flexibility is likely the key here. To be able to cut down on some detail so that the ref can run half a dozen NPCs is really useful. But as refs we don't need to make our lives more difficult with scores of intricately developed NPCs for each encounter: realistically, we don't do this. That doesn't mean we have to always have a pile of cookie-cutter NPCs clad in SPECTRE-ish orange jumpsuits for every situation, but seek a due medium between detail and templating.

...With all these rolls, though, it won't be my cup of tea. But, hey, I think the task system is way too finicky, too. And, that's not going anywhere, so what do I know. All I can do is just send in my opinion and hope that my point makes sense to the voices that matter.

Hey, all your points are valid, and everyone wants to see them because they give us pause for thought about how we run our own games. Not that we imagine you will, but don't hold back!

 

[David Johansen]

You know, maybe we need stock npcs right in the combat section.

Thug 978544
Brawling - 2, Pistol -1, Streetwise - 2, Stealth - 1
Heavy Pistol, Big Knife

Soldier 778777
Brawling - 1, Rifle - 2
Combat Environment Suit, Advanced Combat Rifle, or Gauss Rifle

Veteran 888787
Brawling - 2, Rifle - 3, Stealth -1
Combat Environment Suit, Advanced Combat Rifle or Gauss Rifle

Spaceman 787888
Brawling - 2, Pisol -1,
Vacc Suit, Accelerator Rifle or Laser Rifle

Marine 899787
Brawling- 1, Cutlass - 3, Rifle - 2
Battle Dress, Gauss Rife or PGMP

Pirate 888784
Brawling - 1, Cutlass -2, Pistol - 2
Vacc Suit, Cutlass, Snub Pistol

I know the skills look a bit low but they are mooks. You could probably double the skills but you'll lose more PCs.

 

[mike wightman]

A couple of thoughts:

I never use mooks in Traveller, PCs and NPCs are created equal

I don't like games with any more than three dice rolls to resolve a combat round

damage/wound tracking has to be easy enough for the referee to have double digit NPCs and still be able to quickly update their stat blocks/damage track.

 

[Ulsyus]

I never use mooks in Traveller, PCs and NPCs are created equal

I agree with that and run my games the same way, but shouldn't that be a decision of each ref as to whether they're going to run a gritty or a cinematic game?

I don't like games with any more than three dice rolls to resolve a combat round

That quick and dirty? He who shoots first shoots last, and always hits? How do you do that?[/QUOTE]

damage/wound tracking has to be easy enough for the referee to have double digit NPCs and still be able to quickly update their stat blocks/damage track.

So how do you do that?

 

[Supplement Four]

That quick and dirty? He who shoots first shoots last, and always hits? How do you do that?

Most RPGs have only two or three rolls for combat. One attack. One damage roll. And, sometimes, a hit location throw.

That's certainly the tried and true method of d20 (and a ton of other games).

 

[aramis]

Most RPGs have only two or three rolls for combat. One attack. One damage roll. And, sometimes, a hit location throw.

That's certainly the tried and true method of d20 (and a ton of other games).

Most of the 200+ (about 120ish) have at least 3 rolls, not including location: to hit, to dodge, to damage, and a great many have a fourth of either To Soak or To Resist.

Only about 50 of them have hit locations, and 6 of those have hit location determined by the to-hit roll.

Some classic examples:
WEG d6: Hit vs Dodge/Parry, then Damage vs Soak - 4 rolls. 5th if using hit locations in 2E.

Palladium: To Strike vs Parry/Dodge/Roll, damage, and only for vehicles is location rolled.

WFRP 1 & 2, Dark Heresy, Only War, Rogue Trader, Deathwatch, Judge Dredd (GW): to hit, dodge, damage. Location determined by reversing digits of to-hit roll.

BRP derivatives: To hit, to dodge or parry, damage, location. Sometimes a save against some side effect.

 

[Supplement Four]

I haven't played anywhere near 200+ games. I tend to play a lot of just a few games, but of those I've played (FASA Star Trek, Top Secret/SI, James Bond RPG, Conan RPG, AD&D 1E, AD&D 2E, D&D 3E, Conan RPG, WEG Star Wars, Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, Marc Miller's Traveller, and a few others), few dice rolls are definitely the norm.

 

[aramis]

WEG has 4 dice rolls involved in a successful attack if the defender opts to react... Attacker must roll to hit; TN is either range or the defenders defense roll*, Then, the damage roll versus the defender's strength roll. Close, in, it's almost always 4 rolls. And rolls of large numbers of dice. And that's before accounting for 2E initiative rolls, or the fact that you can readily make two actions (such as fire a pistol and swing a sword) at only -1D to each, and generate 8 rolls on your turn.

The D&D lineage tends to use fewer rolls - Attack and damage, possible a target save versus some special effect. Traveller, as well.

Runequest introduced the defense roll in 1977.
T&T essentially did so in 1974... but T&T is a two rolls per combat round... Players vs Monsters....

The norm seems to be an initiative roll, an attack roll, the defender possibly defending (defense rolls are usually limited), a damage roll. Hit locations seem to be about 50-50...

So, T5's not really that bad.

For most weapons, a single to-hit, no defense rolls, a location roll, a penetration/damage roll or two.

4-5 rolls, and if you have multiple colors of dice, you can combine the location and damage rolls into a single throw.

 

[Supplement Four]

The norm seems to be an initiative roll, an attack roll, the defender possibly defending (defense rolls are usually limited), a damage roll. Hit locations seem to be about 50-50...

I wasn't counting Initiative, as it is done different ways in many different games, and it is more often than not a one-time roll for the entire combat.

Typically, games have an attack roll, and a damage roll, as I originally said. Sure, there are some defense rolls too, and sometimes you see hit location.

So, T5's not really that bad.

As it stands with this current draft, combat could easily have this many rolls--

(not counting anything for initiative)

1. Roll to hit with a weapon that does three different types of damage (call it Bang, Bullet, and Blast).

2. Roll Bang vs. Protection.

3. Roll Hit Location for Bullet.

4. Roll Bullet for Penetration.

5. Roll Hit Location for Blast.

6. Roll Blast for Penetration.

7. Roll random Physical stat for any Bullet damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

8. Roll random Physical stat for any Blast damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

9. Roll for Knockdown, if triggered.



That's 8+ rolls--maybe as many as 11+ rolls--for one character's attack.

So, I'd say that you're a bit off in saying that T5 isn't that bad.

 

[aramis]

I wasn't counting Initiative, as it is done different ways in many different games, and it is more often than not a one-time roll for the entire combat.

Typically, games have an attack roll, and a damage roll, as I originally said. Sure, there are some defense rolls too, and sometimes you see hit location.





As it stands with this current draft, combat could easily have this many rolls--

(not counting anything for initiative)

1. Roll to hit with a weapon that does three different types of damage (call it Bang, Bullet, and Blast).

2. Roll Bang vs. Protection.

3. Roll Hit Location for Bullet.

4. Roll Bullet for Penetration.

5. Roll Hit Location for Blast.

6. Roll Blast for Penetration.

7. Roll random Physical stat for any Bullet damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

8. Roll random Physical stat for any Blast damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

9. Roll for Knockdown, if triggered.



That's 8+ rolls--maybe as many as 11+ rolls--for one character's attack.

So, I'd say that you're a bit off in saying that T5 isn't that bad.

And a single TNE long burst from a HMG can be ≥20d20, each checked individually

A single T&T combat round can be 7 players each rolling between 5 and 15 d6 each, and a GM rolling as many as 150d6. (Yes, I've had that happen. Players lost the round, but between spells, stunts, and armor, drastically reduced the dice pool I had - to about 130d6...)

A single round of combat in SW D6 can be one player making 10 attacks (6d blaster, force point) at 3d each, each dodged by a stormtrooper throwing 2d, and then each hit being 5d vs 3d... Again, that's straight out of a game I ran.

So, in the big scheme, you're making much more noise about it than it's worth, because T5 is already dice-heavy due to the task system, and unlike several others, does so for specific modeling reasons. Throw all the pens at once, different colors each, and compare them AFTER rolling them as a cupful.

 

[Supplement Four]

And a single TNE long burst from a HMG can be ≥20d20, each checked individually

A single T&T combat round can be 7 players each rolling between 5 and 15 d6 each, and a GM rolling as many as 150d6. (Yes, I've had that happen. Players lost the round, but between spells, stunts, and armor, drastically reduced the dice pool I had - to about 130d6...)

A single round of combat in SW D6 can be one player making 10 attacks (6d blaster, force point) at 3d each, each dodged by a stormtrooper throwing 2d, and then each hit being 5d vs 3d... Again, that's straight out of a game I ran.

The difference in these and T5 is that we're talking about a lot of different types of rolls--most of them include some type of figuring.

You already know about the Task system. Hit location is done with Flux, roll d6 minus d6, then look on chart. Random roll damage.

So, in the big scheme, you're making much more noise about it than it's worth....

I really don't think so. I think combat is going to be a dice rolling chore, if it isn't changed.

And, I think it's going to be very hard for the GM to keep up with multiple NPCs.

Throw all the pens at once, different colors each, and compare them AFTER rolling them as a cupful.

You'd spend just as long figuring up all the dice and what they represent.

Throw the attack dice. Then include the Hit Location--one hit location for each type of damage the weapon does. Then, you've got to random roll physical stats for damage. Not to mention damage/penetration for the different types of attack, plus things like Knockdown.

I don't think (read that as "know") that can be easily accomplished with just one big handful of d6, all thrown at once.

 

[Licheking]

1. Roll to hit with a weapon that does three different types of damage (call it Bang, Bullet, and Blast).

2. Roll Bang vs. Protection.

3. Roll Hit Location for Bullet.

4. Roll Bullet for Penetration.

5. Roll Hit Location for Blast.

6. Roll Blast for Penetration.

7. Roll random Physical stat for any Bullet damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

8. Roll random Physical stat for any Blast damage that penetrated. If more than one die of damage penetrated, roll randomly for each die.

9. Roll for Knockdown, if triggered.

I think you have misread there, as i understood the draft you only roll the location once, the damage is then applied in that one location versus the different protections.

Also the damage application is going to be targets choice, so they pick which attributes to apply it too so no rolls there.

So the weapon you have chosen an extreme one would have 5 rolls, one to hit, one for location, then one for each of the damage types and you could easily roll all the damage dice together using different coloured dice so it becomes one roll.