T5 - The Verdict

[Supplement Four]

On The Turning Away...

-- Pink Floyd

​

Although I haven't read the entire book cover to cover, I've studied major parts of the game, and I've commented quite a lot about what I've found.

Yesterday, I came to a decision about T5 when I was answering in THIS POST.

What I said was...

As much as I wanted to like T5, it's really just too broken to play. The game is a mess. Yes, there are a couple of good ideas presented in the game--some brillant ones, even. But, as a whole, the game will bring nothing but heartache to the T5 Ref, constantly forcing him to tweak and fix and House Rule broken or ugly parts of the game.

The reason we pay for Core Rulebooks is to have someone else spend a lot of time and energy working out a fun, viable game system to use in our games. Otherwise, we'd just save the money and make up our own games.

T5, plain and simple, is just not delivering.




It's a shame, really. I had so much hope for T5. I feel like I did when the new Star Wars prequels came out: At first, elated at the idea of new Star Wars, then disappointed with the result.

Maybe T5 will turn into a viable game, down the road, after published supplements that not only fix the eratta but the downright broken parts, too. And, if that happens, I'll look at T5 again.

But, for now, with the game the way it is, I'm going to have to stick with Classic Traveller.

And, my opinion on T5 is: Thumbs Down.

 

[selunatic2397]

I'll just gut mine for good stuff for my traveller game...Ive done this for so many scifi games, and will continue to do so.

 

[Elianka]

That's really depressing. So I spent 111 dollars on a door stop, and 163 dollars for Marc Miller's pocket for a package I doubt I will ever see.

As Lando once said: "This deal is getting worse all the time".

Looks like we will stick will CT.

What a shame.

I don't think you should worry about your delivery.
I have full confidence Marc won't disappoint you on this.

Keep you hope up... I just got my Delivery notice from USPS !

Your turn soon...

Éli,

 

[Baltech Budapest]

I don't think you should worry about your delivery.
I have full confidence Marc won't disappoint you on this.

Keep you hope up... I just got my Delivery notice from USPS !

Your turn soon...

Éli,

Éli thanks for your words of encouragement. I appreciate that.
I have drawn a line under it all now. No more negative comments from me. It's not good for me and it's not good for the other members and it's only filling the forum with bad vibes.
Positive thoughts from here on in. My book from NKG will be here next week. The book and dice from Marc will follow soon after I'm sure. Time to get excited again about Traveller

 

[BytePro]

T5 may not meet your expectations, but that's no reason to expect Marc won't deliver (email him if you have concerns). By all accounts he's a standup guy.

And, even if you decide T5 is not for you - its big enough there's got to be something that will benefit your gaming.

 

[pendragonman]

Hey, the items missing from my KS shipment showed up today. I know it is difficult to extend your patience, but patience is rewarded.

 

[Almuric]

On The Turning Away...

What I said was...

But, for now, with the game the way it is, I'm going to have to stick with Classic Traveller.

And, my opinion on T5 is: Thumbs Down.

Well, if this proves a widespread opinion, then on the positive side, at least T5 is unlikely to further subdivide the Traveller community as much as had been feared.

 

[travlar]

I think it's better than that myself, but there are more issues with it than I'd expected. A few bits of the combat, well, and some issues with the maker parts, are the main issues I can think of. Other things I may not like, but look more like personal preference issues than actual 'this is a problem' issues. I do hope, though that a few supplements and such will fix up most of it.

 

[Otto Harkaman]

Never saw the point of it in the first place. I've seen this site go through Traveller d20, Mongoose Traveller and now this. I would have been more interested in some well written novels with Traveller themes.

 

[Avenger Enterprises]

You might be about to get that wish.

 

[BytePro]

Its a first edition - and huge - expect errata. <shrug>

Also, expect to fail to understand the author's intents and the nuances of the mechanics even after several reads and play sessions.

Not saying T5 could not have been done better, but these issues are universal and will likely never go away. I am pretty sure, sight unseen, that T5 could have greatly benefited from:

A full-time paid development team.

Playtests, with pre-print T5 dumped on uninvolved Refs and Players, and observed by the author with post play reviews.

Knowledge of modern document creation, management tools and practices.

Better independent production review for spelling, grammar and logical consistency. (Noting the first would have involved almost no effort or risk for the author, while the latter two could introduce unintended changes and would have involved possibly unacceptable amounts of time and mental effort.)

Easier to deliver Kickstarter rewards (I hope Marc's hand is alright - suspect the individually signed books was a major stumbling block!).​

With T5 being a reality, I only mention these in terms of future efforts.

I'd also stress for the OP that first point - it's impact cascades down the list above. Sure, the Kickstarter brought in a lot of money. But I'm pretty certain Marc didn't plan for that, and his original self imposed deadlines and commitment to his supporters didn't really offer the time to apply the money that way. The swag that was used in bringing in that high funding amount added a huge burden and obstacles to doing the things listed above, even if he knew and would have liked to do them.

These are just my opinions (and I haven't bought the book yet!).

 

[Supplement Four]

Not saying T5 could not have been done better, but these issues are universal and will likely never go away. I am pretty sure, sight unseen, that T5 could have greatly benefited from:

A full-time paid development team.

Playtests, with pre-print T5 dumped on uninvolved Refs and Players, and observed by the author with post play reviews.

​

With T5 being a reality, I only mention these in terms of future efforts.

From what's been reported, many of the same issues that are being brought up now with the release of T5 were also brought up during the playtest and ignored.

How many times has someone said that (fill in the blank ) problem was seen before, with fixes suggested, and that was ignored (or considered against) during the beta?

If it were me in charge of T5, I'd sure make sure that my major systems worked and were presented in an understandable fashion--especially if I had taken a decade to develop the game. I'd be a lot happier with T5 coming out in 2014 in a better "fixed" edition than what we've received.

As for all the eratta, I'd take each chapter of the book and assign one or two people to each chapter. Those people would be in charge not only looking for typos, but also looking closely at the tables and working through any systems presented to ensure that they work.

Even then, I'm sure you'd end up with some eratta, but it would be manageable and acceptable.

 

[Echo]

Its a first edition - and huge - expect errata. <shrug>

Also, expect to fail to understand the author's intents and the nuances of the mechanics even after several reads and play sessions.

Not saying T5 could not have been done better, but these issues are universal and will likely never go away. I am pretty sure, sight unseen, that T5 could have greatly benefited from:

A full-time paid development team.

Playtests, with pre-print T5 dumped on uninvolved Refs and Players, and observed by the author with post play reviews.

Knowledge of modern document creation, management tools and practices.

Better independent production review for spelling, grammar and logical consistency. (Noting the first would have involved almost no effort or risk for the author, while the latter two could introduce unintended changes and would have involved possibly unacceptable amounts of time and mental effort.)

Easier to deliver Kickstarter rewards (I hope Marc's hand is alright - suspect the individually signed books was a major stumbling block!).​

With T5 being a reality, I only mention these in terms of future efforts.

I'd also stress for the OP that first point - it's impact cascades down the list above. Sure, the Kickstarter brought in a lot of money. But I'm pretty certain Marc didn't plan for that, and his original self imposed deadlines and commitment to his supporters didn't really offer the time to apply the money that way. The swag that was used in bringing in that high funding amount added a huge burden and obstacles to doing the things listed above, even if he knew and would have liked to do them.

These are just my opinions (and I haven't bought the book yet!).

It's not a first edition - it's a fifth edition - and considering that people have already had to fork out $75+ for it, don't expect much of a market to be left for reprints or supplements.

 

[PFVA63]

In all honesty its the 1st edition of the 5th (or is it 6th or 7th?) version where some previous incarnations didn't really match the mechanics and such of this version all that closely (specifically T20 or GURPS Traveller). To me I really think its disingenuous to claim otherwise.

 

[Muad'dib Pendragon]

In all honesty its the 1st edition of the 5th (or is it 6th or 7th?) version where some previous incarnations didn't really match the mechanics and such of this version all that closely (specifically T20 or GURPS Traveller). To me I really think its disingenuous to claim otherwise.

Actually, it's the first printing of the 5th edition; the brainchild of the game's original creator, based on over 35 years experience with the same game. His magnum opus.

While errata should be expected in any first print, the final product unfortunately falls short on many levels beyond simple typos, to include playability.

 

[PFVA63]

Actually, it's the first printing of the 5th edition; the brainchild of the game's original creator, based on over 35 years experience with the same game. His magnum opus.

While errata should be expected in any first print, the final product unfortunately falls short on many levels beyond simple typos, to include playability.

One rule I've always heard is that before any computer/board/ or role-playing game can be considered ready for 'public use" is that it really needs a full and comprehensive somewhat independent "beta-testing". Until such time as that is possible, anything put out really can't be considered a fully developed game. since it doesn't appear that T5 has undergone this yet, to me even the bound copies of stuff being sold & distributed still comes across as a "beta" version of a game.

In this respect what I have received is pretty much what I expected.

 

[Elianka]

One rule I've always heard is that before any computer/board/ or role-playing game can be considered ready for 'public use" is that it really needs a full and comprehensive somewhat independent "beta-testing". Until such time as that is possible, anything put out really can't be considered a fully developed game. since it doesn't appear that T5 has undergone this yet, to me even the bound copies of stuff being sold & distributed still comes across as a "beta" version of a game.

In this respect what I have received is pretty much what I expected.

Your simple and clear statement Sir, did a lot to reconcile myself with T5.
I still feel a real disappointment but I have a beginning of understanding!

Thanks,

Éli,

 

[Spaceresearcher]

TRAVELLER 5 IS TERRIFIC

Hello fellow Traveller fans,
All I can say is ignore all the negativity. Traveller 5 IS AWESOME!!!

There's nothing else out there as detailed as this.

Even classic Traveller once had a time when it was full of bugs and to this day, there's still errata floating around and being added to it. (Even many people who went out and made up there own rule systems).

Just because it's 'slightly' different and much expanded to any other edition of Traveller is no reason to write it off. (Just because someone isn't immediately happy with the combat system because they can't work it out or put in a few values for themselves is most definitely another very good reason not to write it off and in fact, to ignore them).

Seriously. If all that ever happens is a bunch of people all bagging out any new Traveller system and declaring Classic to be the only version they will play and nothing else is better etc, then it's simply never going to expand the way it deserves to.

Even I have things I don't like about T5, but then that would be true of practically every RPG that I have ever laid eyes on. Overall it's magnificent and I'm giving it a 9/10.

In short, there's a wealth of valuable new material that T5 brings to the official Traveller universe, so don't listen to those who must have some kind of investment in MgT or the other systems and don't want to incorporate anything new presented in T5 into there games, check it out and be surprised. There's a lot of GREAT things in T5(the expanded character generation alone makes this an essential addition for ANY Traveller fan) and for a first printing and a simply massive effort to get this to players around the world, it should be commended.

What other scifi RPG do you know of that has a core rule book of greater than 600 pages. (Please do tell me, as I currently don't know of one). Amidst that much quantity, do you really expect absolutely everything to be perfect from the get go?

What Traveller needs, is support. Not thumbs down and abandonment.

Don't let the comments of a few detract from your gaming experience. T5 is great and deserves to be acknowledged as one of the greatest SciFi RPG games ever made.

Finally on all the hype with issues, has there ever been a Traveller, that hasn't had to have updates? Did that stop everyone before? I'd hope not, for that would be to turn ones back on one of the most detailed SciFi RPG's of all time. Enjoy your Traveller adventures.

 

[Elianka]

Its a first edition - and huge - expect errata. <shrug>

Also, expect to fail to understand the author's intents and the nuances of the mechanics even after several reads and play sessions.

Not saying T5 could not have been done better, but these issues are universal and will likely never go away. I am pretty sure, sight unseen, that T5 could have greatly benefited from:

A full-time paid development team.

Playtests, with pre-print T5 dumped on uninvolved Refs and Players, and observed by the author with post play reviews.

Knowledge of modern document creation, management tools and practices.

Better independent production review for spelling, grammar and logical consistency. (Noting the first would have involved almost no effort or risk for the author, while the latter two could introduce unintended changes and would have involved possibly unacceptable amounts of time and mental effort.)

Easier to deliver Kickstarter rewards (I hope Marc's hand is alright - suspect the individually signed books was a major stumbling block!).​

With T5 being a reality, I only mention these in terms of future efforts.

I'd also stress for the OP that first point - it's impact cascades down the list above. Sure, the Kickstarter brought in a lot of money. But I'm pretty certain Marc didn't plan for that, and his original self imposed deadlines and commitment to his supporters didn't really offer the time to apply the money that way. The swag that was used in bringing in that high funding amount added a huge burden and obstacles to doing the things listed above, even if he knew and would have liked to do them.

These are just my opinions (and I haven't bought the book yet!).

I agree totally about your whole statement and second the motion...

Éli,

 

[Baltech Budapest]

The book I ordered from NKG was processed through the Chicago sorting facility yesterday so, from past experience with them I should have my book either Friday or the following Monday (barring any hold ups in customs here).

Hopefully I will also get a shipping notice this week for the book and dice I ordered from Marc.

We are all excited here.

I was preparing a short CT adventure for the kids for next week but I might put that on hold until we have looked at T5.