T5 - The Verdict

[hemulen]

Additionally, I don't really see waiting for a Player's Handbook to come out as a really viable option - how long will it take, and it's then another book to buy. But there's free errata before then.

I suspect that the chances of a corrected/updated 2nd edition might be rather slim, and even if it happens will be a long time ahead given the printing/distribution costs etc that T5 has incurred, plus it's unlikely to happen before the current printing has sold out.

 

[robject]

Additionally, I don't really see waiting for a Player's Handbook to come out as a really viable option - how long will it take, and it's then another book to buy. But there's free errata before then.

I suspect that the chances of a corrected/updated 2nd edition might be rather slim, and even if it happens will be a long time ahead given the printing/distribution costs etc that T5 has incurred, plus it's unlikely to happen before the current printing has sold out.

I figure the current printing is, for all intents and purposes, sold out by design.

The errata is near the top of FFE's list, I'm sure, because then the Player's Handbook will be carved out of 200(?) pages of the corrected core rules. The significant task for the Player's book, beyond that, is organization. DonM is pounding that particular drum.

Also near the top are the Scout and Free Trader deckplans. (Isn't that right?)

After that, the 2nd printing, and BCS, and more, in some order unknown to me.

 

[kafka47]

I am sorry, as much that I love Traveller...this is certainly a two thumb's down. I had hoped that T5 would take us away from Tables & Charts play and create a real sense of awe. This is a toolkit and parts of it are not really good at that. A big waste of money.

 

[aramis]

[m;]TO MAKE IT CLEAR: stating "T5 is unplayable" will get you infracted.[/m;]

 

[Vladika]

...This is a toolkit and parts of it are not really good at that.

If it's a tool kit it's not a very organized one. The the tools, of whatever type, are just tossed in the box. When I reach for a wrench or socket, I have no idea what size it's going to be or even if it's Metric or Standard.

A big waste of money.

I won't go that far but it does disappoint me.

There are many things that T5 does right, though as game rules it is, in my opinion*, quite cumbersome and difficult to keep a strong flow and uninterrupted continuity. (Of course if you beta tested for years you don't have to think about how it reads to someone seeing it for the first time.)

To much looking up what you just know you saw yesterday but can't seem to find today.

The Errata irritates me, as does the spelling and syntax errors. A simple spell check could have caught many of them. I'm not going deeper into the problems I see at the moment though.

Still;

I like ganging drives. CT had it wrong, though it didn't really matter until HG came out.

I like individual power plants for equipment if you so choose.

I like the variety of choice you have for quartering your shipboard personal, whether crew, troops, passengers or supercargo.

I like the way it handles computers which were pretty oversize by CT rules.

I like the jump choices and alternative fueling.

I'm sure there is much more to like in addition to the above. As I like ship building, I'm still enjoying that part right now.

I am disappointed that we don't hear from the emperor himself on any issues brought up on this board. No way to know if he just doesn't care or is embarrassed or oblivious. Like any hint of revolution in the making though, he's already calling in the troops and clamping down.

It's obviously not a constitutional monarchy and the "Loyal Opposition" isn't wanted for its advice or critical thoughts. So, the courtiers and hanger-on types will continue to have the ear while the rest are silenced or exiled.

I do see the point though, if we continue to bash, unabated, T5 on it's strongest fan site, then future sales will be way off. NEVER mess with the tax base!

As for the rest, it is unfortunate that we can't tell him his new suit just isn't "all that and a bag of chips" and he just isn't wearing any clothes...

*requisite disclaimer.

 

[PFVA63]

If the lead of the software development team chooses not to incorporate feedback from beta testing and fix bugs submitted in bug reports, and chooses to release the software as-is anyway, it's still going to come across as beta. And broken.

....

Hi,

As this doesn't appear to have been the case with T5, I'm not sure that this analogy is relevant here. If, however, you have specific areas of concern where you feel that specific feedback was provided but ignored it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

Many people here took part in commenting on the previous drafts of T5 which resulted in some lively discussion on the old T5 board, so I'm sure that if you have some specifics they can be further discussed here.

 

[mechascorpio]

If, however, you have specific areas of concern where you feel that specific feedback was provided but ignored it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

I wasn't in the beta, I'm simply basing it on the number of times over the past few weeks that someone has brought up an issue, and someone else replies that it was brought up during the beta and was not addressed in the final release. As examples:

From The Most Serious T5 Problems

It appears that there should have been SOME critical play testers.

There were. And there were copious T5-beta threads here on these subjects (weapon stats, combat, ammo, etc). But it seems none of the feedback was considered relevant.

From GunMaker Question?

Here's another example, p.258, the PGMP-11 has PEN 3 and BURN 3 listed for effects. The 3D of its H2 value is not added to the 2D of it's H1 value, it supercedes it.

Yep people have been drawing attention to this example as being broken for a long time now. The most likely explanation is that Pen has been added up wrong.

From My T5 Review, and this from Pendragonman, who is clearly positive on T5, but says....

On the other hand, the lack of detailed examples is crippling for the non-grognard Trav person. Also, how is it that Don (an overly organized person) and Rob (a reasonably organized person) were unable to convince Marc to offer better organization I cannot say. The lack of internal divisions for, say, the Essentials, For Experts, For GMs, Example Adventure, etc are somewhat disheartening for those who expressed just those ideas in Beta.

Further, many of the grammatical errors that made it into the final printing were pointed out during the last several months of vetting. Not sure how they managed to survive to the printer.

On another board entirely, it was said, "I don't know how many of you know this, but when the issue of hiring a professional editor for the book was brought up the response was along the lines of "we don't need an editor"." I would provide a link to that and more, but upon review I see it includes the "the word which must not be spoken", so I'll pass.

Finally, there's simply the volume and depth of the issues being discussed on this very board, feeding into the growing errata document. Instead of providing more specific examples, I'll ask you: is it your contention that the issues currently being raised in this forum have never been brought up before, and that those who did participate in the beta and playtesting did not catch or report them?

 

[Vladika]

Finally, there's simply the volume and depth of the issues being discussed on this very board, feeding into the growing errata document. Instead of providing more specific examples, I'll ask you: is it your contention that the issues currently being raised in this forum have never been brought up before, and that those who did participate in the beta and playtesting did not catch or report them?

I'm not going to dig for it but even aramis said his input as a beta tester was ignored. Additionally, that he wouldn't be using T5.

 

[pennshome723]

Hey I have had my copy of T5 now for like 2-3 weeks and I am happy with it so far. It is not perfect, but what is. I will use the book as a refense book and maybe pick and choose some ideas or concepts to add or adapt to my own game as it fits my GMing style and needs. As with any set of rules, I look it over and decide what I might find of some use and then tailor it to my own style and use.

If more books are written for the line I will buy them as well too, but I will still use my own in-House rules set that works best for me and my players know and like. To each their own, but just use it as a added resource.

 

[Muad'dib Pendragon]

Hello fellow Traveller fans,
All I can say is ignore all the negativity. Traveller 5 IS AWESOME!!!

Not everyone shares your opinion.

There's nothing else out there as detailed as this.

Even classic Traveller once had a time when it was full of bugs and to this day, there's still errata floating around and being added to it. (Even many people who went out and made up there own rule systems).

Just because it's 'slightly' different and much expanded to any other edition of Traveller is no reason to write it off.

On this I think most will agree.

(Just because someone isn't immediately happy with the combat system because they can't work it out or put in a few values for themselves is most definitely another very good reason not to write it off and in fact, to ignore them).

I respectfully disagree. Not everybody considering T5 is a Traveller fanboy. In addition, I suspect many people will have differing views on the various T5 systems. Rather than ignore them, I would hope people would objectively consider them.

Seriously. If all that ever happens is a bunch of people all bagging out any new Traveller system and declaring Classic to be the only version they will play and nothing else is better etc, then it's simply never going to expand the way it deserves to.

While I agree simply declaring out of hand CT is the best and will never be bettered may inhibit it's betterment and improvement through new editions, please consider there are those who didn't start with CT, or prefer another flavor altogether (whatever flavor that is).

Even I have things I don't like about T5, but then that would be true of practically every RPG that I have ever laid eyes on. Overall it's magnificent and I'm giving it a 9/10.

I'm glad it works for you and some others.

In short, there's a wealth of valuable new material that T5 brings to the official Traveller universe, so don't listen to those who must have some kind of investment in MgT or the other systems and don't want to incorporate anything new presented in T5 into there games, check it out and be surprised.

It appears you're making a big assumption that every T5 critic has a hidden agenda and doesn't like a single thing about it. I would argue most wanted it to succeed. I for one hope it improves and grows. That said, it's arguable whether T5's good parts, in the grand scheme of things, justifies its current price tag.

There's a lot of GREAT things in T5(the expanded character generation alone makes this an essential addition for ANY Traveller fan) and for a first printing and a simply massive effort to get this to players around the world, it should be commended.

There are definitely some good things about T5, and I do believe many hardcore Traveller grongards will make it a part of their collection in some form.

What other scifi RPG do you know of that has a core rule book of greater than 600 pages. (Please do tell me, as I currently don't know of one). Amidst that much quantity, do you really expect absolutely everything to be perfect from the get go?

Quantity =/= Quality. T5's quality is up for debate, as evidenced in this very thread. Given T5 has been in beta several years, and given feedback from beta testers, including you if I'm not mistaken, many hoped for something better than what is currently in release.

What Traveller needs, is support. Not thumbs down and abandonment.

All flavors of Traveller need support. Abandoning or ignoring a particular flavor is one's choice and, most importantly, doesn't deserve derision.

Don't let the comments of a few detract from your gaming experience. T5 is great and deserves to be acknowledged as one of the greatest SciFi RPG games ever made.

Every gamer should judge for themselves. T5, in my opinion, is NOT one of the greatest SciFi RPGs ever made. That doesn't mean my opinion is any better than any other; it's simply my opinion. The Traveller line is certainly, in my view, (to quote Keith Jackson) "the granddaddy of them all!"

Finally on all the hype with issues, has there ever been a Traveller, that hasn't had to have updates? Did that stop everyone before? I'd hope not, for that would be to turn ones back on one of the most detailed SciFi RPG's of all time. Enjoy your Traveller adventures.

Agreed. My concern is as we inevitably stare down the barrel of a shrinking hobby, T5 does more to cater to existing Traveller enthusiasts than to attract new players. Much more.

 

[Muad'dib Pendragon]

In this respect what I have received is pretty much what I expected.

I personally hesitated and avoided the kickstarter, only to purchase T5 second hand at a deeply discounted price fully knowing at that point, based on many credible critiques and reviews, what I was getting into. That said, your words sum up my view pretty clearly.

 

[Vladika]

Agreed. My concern is as we inevitably stare down the barrel of a shrinking hobby, T5 does more to cater to existing Traveller enthusiasts than to attract new players. Much more.

Darned if you didn't hit that nail right on the head!

T5, in my opinion*, isn't going to be purchased by a new batch of players.

As for "existing Traveller enthusiasts" look at the divisiveness that it's provoked right here on CotI.

*requisite disclaimer.

 

[Vladika]

...Does it occur to you that just maybe some of us genuinely dig the game? I know I am biased, so I may not be best cheerleader for the game, but I do so because I too love the game.

I love the game too, just not some of the built in hassles.

As to the Index, as I said before I will eat some of the blame sandwich for that missing bit ...

Hey, it's a big sandwich and you can't hog it all! Seriously, you weren't in charge, so how is the blame yours?

I ask because I have run games with it, in fact I am running a PbP with it and may be getting my meatspace group back together (conflicting work schedules shot it for a while there) and so far it seems to work fine. But again, I haven't run a Personal Combat (though I have run several Space Combats) so I do reserve the right to come back and agree that it has problems.

I know you have been. I've been following it and enjoying. You've even invited me to join. If I could see to type faster, I'd have done so.

Well, off to hook up some more tanks for the next jump.

And this is where you shine, a sense of humor. I can get along with anyone with a sense of humor. It's those other guys...

 

[PFVA63]

I wasn't in the beta, I'm simply basing it on the number of times over the past few weeks that someone has brought up an issue, and someone else replies that it was brought up during the beta and was not addressed in the final release.

...

Hi,

I think this is part of the issue here. Submitting comments and not having them necessarily included is not necessarily the same thing as having input ignored.

As an example a few years ago I was involved in a project for the Navy where a maneuvering simulator was provided using publically available for a specific naval vessel. Since the math was based solely on publically available info we new the model probably didn't fully reflect all the capabilities of the real ship but we hoped it would be close. So, as part of this exercise a computer with this simulator was placed at one of the Navy's training facilities and the student/officers were asked to use it and comment on its usefulness, as well as its apparent accuracy.

As probably expected the comments that came back ranged from 'not very accurate' to 'very accurate' to ' the model overestimates things' and 'the model underestimates things'.

While we took all this info into consideration the breadth of the variation in input made it difficult to come up with specific recommended changes that might ultimately be incorporated.

For T5, from the info I saw on the T5 pre-release board suggested a lot of difference in opinion on things and as such, just because one or more people may have proposed some changes its not necessarily clear that any of these proposed changes would have necessarily been universally acceptable to all. and thus we may well have been left in a similar situation with a slightly different version of T5 being released (with some changes to specific mechanics etc) but with people still disagreeing on specifics.

In the end then, although I realize that T5 is probably not going to be my specific preferred set of rules (since I have grown to favor simpler/lighter stuff now), I am pretty much willing to accept T5 for what it is (or at least what it appears to be to me) and appreciate it as such.

And, as such, I think if people are going to suggest that specific stuff was ignored it might well be worthwhile to mention what specific issues are of concern.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

...from the info I saw on the T5 pre-release board suggested a lot of difference in opinion on things...

As several folks have pointed out in this thread and others, simple things such as spelling (even a poor auto-spell-checker would've caught many, if not most, of the errors), and consistent grammar and punctuation (many people can argue what's "right" in those categories, but few can argue against requiring consistency), got submitted as we found them in Beta, and they still made it to final. It's hard to square that in your head.

 

[aramis]

I'm not going to dig for it but even aramis said his input as a beta tester was ignored. Additionally, that he wouldn't be using T5.

Most was. Marc did budge a tiny bit about the wording of the Jumpspace chapter...

But note that big ships still can pull smaller ships out of jump space in T5, where there is no evidence that they could in prior editions.

My primary problem is, quite simply, I hate the muti-die for Stat+Skill or less task system. Which meant I wasn't going to spend time on chapters that I'd never use, so I restricted myself to chapters that I might.

Ship design came a long way... it's now intelligible.

 

[MichaelSTee]

I don't post much, and have avoided the T5 good/bad argument, but I'll say this much:
I was a Beta participant. Didn't join in much, but suggested one correction that (after several drafts) made it into the final, and brought up another issue that didn't. The drafts of T5 were a bit disappointing to me, which is why I didn't join the Kickstarter. I felt it should have been better organized (not just the book, but the whole process). But there were/are some real gems in there, well worth the price I paid to join the Beta.

The Beta was a KS project before there was a KS! I was only a token Kickstarter because, well, I felt I'd already paid up front, and didn't think I should have to do so twice. (OK, so I added some to get the dice. And I love my new Traveller dice!)

I think T5 is a good toolkit - lots of interesting stuff to play with. I don't love every part of it, but I can't say that about any RPG, so I can live with that. Ultimately, I know that this is Marc's baby, and he can make it his way, and that's fine. If I hadn't been in the Beta group, I'd've been happy to spend $50 for this, but not $100 for the book.

One thing I'd like to see, when all the errata is collected, is a 2nd edition in PDF - the final doc all cleaned up, and offered to Beta & Kickstarter folks for a nice discount. I don't think the book will go into a 2nd printing, but I only get PDFs nowadays.

 

[tbeard1999]

Wow! How do you manage to carry all that water? Drop Tanks?

Ah, now THAT was funny...

 

[Spaceresearcher]

But that's not what you said. And anyone buying the book from a retailer, from FFE directly or from the secondary market does not have access to the CD-ROM. That IS a FACT. And they deserve to know that. Now.





That IS a QUOTE. YOUR words.



No, that wouldn't be "fair", that would be something you would prefer. It is not "unfair" to review and pass judgment on any publication upon its official release.

I think that 2001: A Space Odyssey is awesome and an essential part of any film collection. I think it is probably the greatest science fiction film of all time.

My wife does not agree with me. She finds it boring and does not understand the ending. She may even find it to be "unwatchable" but, having watched it myself a number of times, I understand this to be her opinion and I accept it.

I haven't told her that, to be fair, she needs to wait until Kubrick gives her a call to explain it. Fortunately, for her. And I don't tell my friends to "ignore" her when it comes up in conversation. Fortunately, for me.

We're all grown-ups here, I'm sure that most everyone is capable of reading the variety of opinions and reviewing the facts, and can make their own purchasing decision.



Not at all. You've been extremely civil through this whole discussion and others, and I feel bad that you feel you have to assume some responsibility. Frankly, I admire the fact that you got to participate in the design of T5 and appreciate that you are here to discuss it, to run it and so on.

Well Mechascorpio, putting up comments that are negative to the system from the get go, ultimately brings discredit to T5. What ever happened to promoting Traveller? That's all I'm getting at and I don't believe my words as you have quoted right there, discredit anyone.(If they did, that's not my intention and as you can plainly see, no names have been mentioned). It's more to suggest 'decide for yourself' before opting out of T5 just because a few people here feel it's not what they expected or doesn't meet whatever requirement they desired of T5.

 

[Spaceresearcher]

[m;]TO MAKE IT CLEAR: stating "T5 is unplayable" will get you infracted.[/m;]

Thank you Aramis. I couldn't agree more. T5 IS VERY PLAYABLE!!