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OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

* FarF: missing 1 owner

I have no dedicated Library Data for that world, and the Blight is remarkably unsuited to colonies in the modern era as the Zhodani, unfettered by Imperial proximity and familiar with the region, tend to squash colonial efforts. At this point I would recommend changing the Gov code to 4.
 
The only real difference I see is the use of "Px" as an ownership. Is this now official ?

It was used in data Don vetted in lieu of O: - not many occurrences but some. So if we consider existing reviewed data as "Official" then... yes, I guess.

My main focus is to find obvious anomalies and accurately characterize the existing data. I'd like to end up with a set of checks and be able to tell Marc "all the data fits these rules; here's how they differ from T5.09 or otherwise what's written down" - then it's his call on changing the data, rules, both, or neither.

---

FYI, I applied GypsyComet's fix for FarF. I also fixed the errors in Tien; they were due to a difference in Importance calculation between my code and the spreadsheet due to non-Imperial bases.

I also implemented a UWP member check, but have left it disabled for now. Apart from TL most of the official/inreview sectors are pretty clean. Lots of TL reports, though; presumably the list of modifiers has been tweaked over time.
 
Lots of TL reports, though; presumably the list of modifiers has been tweaked over time.

I recall a couple of GDWs sectors had hard modifiers for "old and civilized" that may have inspired others. Certainly the area within the Claw has been developed for a really long time.
 
A few more suggested tweaks to ownership:

  • Thrawn (Canopus 2915) - Change Gov to 3
  • Cybele (Aldebaran 2026) - Change Gov to A
  • Solomanium (Aldebaran 1424) - Change Gov to 8
  • Antofalla (Aldebaran 2719) - Change Gov to 5
  • Manticore (Aldebaran 0927) - Change Gov to 1, remove Px trade classification
 
Non-Imperial Bases and Base Codes

I was hoping to use the review of Canopus, Aldebaran, Neworld, and Langere to spur a discussion about Solomani Confederation bases, which may lead to a wider discussion about non-Imperial bases in T5.

The Confederation, of course, has many similarities to the Imperium and largely shares a common history -- so most of the T5 worldgen processes should apply reasonably well to the Confederation. There is no Confederation equivalent of the Scout Service; the Navy assumes the roles taken up by the IISS. CT Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim notes that “Solomani naval bases include a scout base” (45), a point also mentioned in GURPS: Traveller: Rim of Fire (62).

The CT Solomani Alien Module notes that “Worlds are generated in the same manner as in basic Traveller,” suggesting Confederation naval bases occur only at worlds with Starports A or B at the same frequency as the Imperium. The limited sector data there supports this inference.

CT Module 5: Atlas of the Imperium provides data on 8 Solomani Confederation sectors – Reaver’s Deep, Daibei, Old Expanses, Dark Nebula, Magyar, Solomani Rim, Alpha Crucis, and Spica. The Atlas details system allegiance, whether the mainworld is an asteroid belt, the presence of water on the mainworld, and the presence of gas giants. The Atlas also names high population worlds and shows the presence of bases: “open stars indicate naval bases established or maintained by non-imperial forces,” and “Outside the Imperium, a [secondary] military or non-naval base is represented by two small black dots” (3).

I have to question the reliability of the Atlas data, though. Though the maps are reasonably consistent within sectors, they are wildly inconsistent across different sectors in Confederation space. Confederation allegiance is sometimes noted and sometime omitted. For some sectors the Solomani naval bases are always the only base in the system, while in other sectors the Solomani naval bases are always accompanied by a secondary base. The following table shows just how inconsistent the Atlas is when it comes to Confederation space:

SectorAllegianceBases
Reaver’s DeepConfederation Allegiances not markedConfederation naval bases marked but no secondary bases
DaibeiConfederation Allegiances not markedAll bases in Confederation base marked as Imperial naval bases, no secondary bases
Old ExpansesConfederation Allegiances markedNon-Imperial naval bases marked, no secondary bases; bases at Class C starports (hexes 2639 and 2739)
Dark NebulaConfederation Allegiances not markedAll Confederation naval bases accompanied with secondary base
MagyarConfederation Allegiances markedAll Confederation naval bases accompanied with secondary base
Solomani RimConfederation Allegiances markedConfederation naval bases marked but no secondary bases
Alpha CrucisConfederation Allegiances markedAll Confederation naval bases accompanied with secondary base
SpicaConfederation Allegiances markedAll Confederation naval bases accompanied with secondary base
What are these secondary bases, when they occur, supposed to designate? The only canonical CT description of a Confederation naval base we have, from Signal GK, is an Army base co-located with a Navy base: “The major official Solomani presence on Ochre is a Solomani naval base situated at the starport; the base includes a Solomani Army regiment (the 412th Assault Infantry), a Solomani Navy fighter squadron (the 972nd Strike Fighter Squadron), and several support units” (12).

Are all the Atlas secondary bases, like Ochre, Army bases co-located with naval bases? Does the secondary base symbol simply indicate that all Confederation naval bases double as scout bases? Are these Military Bases per CT Book 6, Scouts, a type of facility not located on the mainworld: "Military forces (army and marine) are stationed at a base for training and maintenance. In addition, some naval operations may be supported from the base as well" (32). Also, "Military bases may be noted with the symbol M. If, however, naval or scout bases are already present on the world, then no symbol for the military base should be used, and it should be noted in the remarks instead" (38).

MegaTraveller doesn’t give us much clarification on Confederation bases. The extended worldgen sequence in the Referee’s Manual includes military bases in the CT book 6 sense, i.e. non-naval bases located off the mainworld, generated as part of the subordinate world creation. But just to make things even more complicated, the Manual also creates a different sort of military base during system generation on page 24, the "non-imperial military base," also coded M, which is evidently associated with some sort of locally-controlled space service, like colonial or planetary navy. “Non-Imperial military bases undertake some or all of the functions of Imperial Naval and Scout bases” (24).

So are these Confederation secondary bases associated with planetary-controlled forces – perhaps member-state or Home Guard bases?

Solomani and Aslan states that the Confederation “navy also maintains bases in every subsector, with liaison officers appointed as advisors to the member-state fleets” (15). World generation directs the referee to “apply a -1 DM to tech level and a + 1 DM to population. . . . Worlds in the sectors adjacent to Solomani Rim sector use the "Clustered" column of the starport type table on page 24 of the Referee's Manual. All other Confederation sectors use the "Standard" column of the starport table” (41). The Clustered table increases the odds of an A or B starport, meaning bases are slightly more likely in Confederation space.

The Mongoose alien module notes that “Solomani Confederation military bases exist on important or strategic worlds throughout the Solomani Confederation. There are no scout bases although some naval bases may be oriented toward exploration, survey or Xboat system operation” (116). The Mongoose Solomani Rim supplement notes that “in the Solomani Rim the Confederation Army’s main bases are co-located with those of navy bases” (31).

A review of T5SS data shows that Confederation naval bases (coded K) are consistently located in systems with class A or B starports and are always found with an accompanying M base. (The only exceptions are in Ustral Quadrant, which has a handful of systems with only one or the other base.)

T5 does not define either K or M base codes. Although V 5.09 makes several vestigial references to military bases (267, 268, 396, 404, and 407), on worldgen Chart F (412) we learn "Other bases may be established as exceptions: Military, Scientific, Diplomatic, and Cultural." When developing Canopus, Aldebaran, Neworld, and Langere I generated naval bases (K) using the straight up T5 rules. I initially assumed M was a co-located army base and automatically added an M base if the mainworld seemed likely to support a significant army: Atmo 4-9, Pop 8+, TL 9+. I also added M bases to Important or Military Rule worlds without naval bases if they met this criteria.

But in order to have these sectors better conform to the reviewed T5SS Confederation sector data, I ended up revising bases so that a K base is almost always accompanied by an M base.

But we have a chance here to rethink what these base codes mean. Maybe rather than have N be an Imperial navy base, it becomes something more generic: “navy base of the regional allegiance.” So it could also be a Confederation or Hive Federation Navy base. K could be a major local naval base – a planetary or colonial navy, or an autonomous region, member-state, or Home Guard naval base. M then would be a ground or sea based military base, maybe associated with either the allegiance or the local system.

Or consider depots, which are defined in T5. Do other polities maintain depots like the Imperium? Just because they haven't been previously described doesn't mean they couldn't or shouldn't exist. Rim of Fire describes Kidashi (Solomani Rim 0528) during the Solomani Rim War as having been "a primary shipyard and supply depot for the Confederation Navy, so that the system was a major objective for the Imperium in the last stages of the war" (99). Was this a depot with a capital D? T5 suggests that a Depot "is present on about one world in a thousand" (272). If the Confederation maintains them, Canopus, Aldebaran, and Neworld would be likely locations.
 
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To summarize some of what I'm asking here:
  • Is K the appropriate code to use for Confederation Naval bases?
  • Is M the appropriate code to use for Confederation secondary bases?
  • If so, what does an M base in the Confederation indicate?
  • Should K and M bases always occur together in the Confederation?
  • If they can appear independently, how should M bases be determined?
  • Should the Confederation have naval depots?
 
As a side tangent, I have just finished going through the Aslan space centered scenarios published by GDW, here is a listing of all the worlds named in those scenarios. The format for the entries are (Sector/Subsector/World (UWP if given)). I have listed the sources so if anyone wants to double check my transcription skills they can.

Raid on Stataorlai, Keith Douglass, pg 28, JTAS 20

(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Stataorlai (C0007J8-8))
(?/?/Waeoisya) - Stated to be located near the system above, but not in the same system.

First Son, Lost Son, Author Unknown, pg 6 & 30, Alien Realms

(Waroatahe/?/Ewew)
(Waroatahe/?/Eaausaarai)
(Waroatahe/?/Aihuarouea)
(Waroatahe/?/Suisahruitalal)
(Waroatahe/?/Hlaihei)
(Waroatahe/?/Ra'akhtaisaaoeah)
(Waroatahe/?/Haiftakh)
(Waroatahe/?/Eauahkusoilr)

Interdiction Zone, Author Unknown, pg 7 & 34, Alien Realms

(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Ftaikhao)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Ktiyrhaniy)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Syeaa'isiy)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Waeorsya)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Kahkeheas)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Htealyahwa)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Hakekhea)
(Dark Nebula/Kyaenkha/Kualakhtaea (X987673-1))

Ahriy Uprising, Author Unknown, pg 8 & 40, Alien Realms

(?/?/Hahorehyi) (Main world in system, Gas giant is named Aikoho.)

Syareahtaorl, Author Unknown, Pg 35, Alien Module 1: Aslan

Note: most but not all of these systems appear on the map included in the original Aslan module. The ones marked with a '*' appear on the Traveller Map.

(Iiyoihuakh (Riftspan Reaches)/A/Aulryakh)*
(Iiyoihuakh (Riftspan Reaches)/P/Wahtoikeoakh)*
(Ealiyasiyw/L/Ilekhahke)*
(Weasuirlaoa (Touchstone)/E/Feirirlakh)
(Kyatulyare' (Iphigenaia)/?/Hirohyukh)
(?/?/Htoi) - In the Rift, reachable by Jump 5 ships from Hirohyukh

Also mentioned is a region of 19 worlds called Luakhti in Iphigenaia held by Akaoft of the Loakhtarl Clan, the exact location on the map is not specified but is presumaby near the rift. Hirohyukh is within this region.
 
As a followup to the review process, I finally got around to running the full trade map generation process for all the charted space sectors. Including the updated sectors under review.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Trade_map_summary

One of the things that Don, and Marc, wanted to have the T5SS review do was to adjust the economic strengths of the various sectors to match what Marc felt should be the relative strengths should be.

I'm pulling out the specific economic numbers for the sectors under review and a few of the nearby sectors. The purpose for this is to review the population levels and economic strengths of the sectors under review.

If the relative populations need to be adjusted, increasing (or decreasing) the population on several worlds, say from 9 to 10 or 7 to 8, so you don't add (or remove) any of the existing high population worlds.

If the relative economics are to be adjusted, increasing (or decreasing) the TLs on several worlds by a one or two levels

Code:
Name        Pos     Worlds      Pop(M)         Economy (BCr)     Per Capita (Cr)
Aldebaran 	0,4 	299 	382,351 	2,353,770 	6,161 	
Canopus 	-1,4 	393 	323,738 	1,973,486 	6,109 	
Langere 	2,4 	220 	355,048 	1,772,279 	4,992 
Neworld 	1,4 	293 	358,799 	1,925,151 	5,377 	

Magyar 	    -1,3 	516 	552,316 	2,800,292 	5,072 	
SolRim	    0,3 	400 	1,659,576 	15,648,127 	9,432 
AlphCru 	1,3 	  486 	1,021,357 	8,173,184 	8,005 	
Spica 	    2,3 	451 	403,628 	2,445,919 	6,069 	

Amdukan 	2,-2 	417 	465,409 	1,939,672 	4,171 
Gashikan 	1,-3 	518 	903,038 	3,707,143 	4,105 	
Mendan 	    1,-2 	446 	553,814 	2,644,042 	4,781 
Meshan 	    0,-2 	424 	717,443 	3,490,542 	4,868 
Trenchans 	2,-3 	329 	613,851 	2,931,701 	4,782 	

Lishun 	    0,-1 	601 	787,842 	6,689,630 	8,500 
Antares 	1,-1 	554 	1,186,920 	7,596,709 	6,405 
Empty Quar 	2,-1 	313 	322,214 	996,905 	3,095 	

Tienspevnekr 	-6,-2 	575 	1,346,983 	8,011,752 	5,952
Ziafrplians 	-5,-2 	484 	684,406 	3,021,518 	4,417 
Far Frontiers 	-6,-1 	470 	704,786 	2,584,340 	3,670

Specific suggestions:

I think the four rim sectors are somewhat under populated. I understand they are supposed to be the rim sectors and full of new colonies. But they also have been colonized since the days of Interstellar wars period. I would hope that Aldeberan should be the 750K range for population, Canopus and NewWorld should be in the 500K range. Neworld looks about right for population and Economics.

In Mendan and Amdukan, the Julian Protectorate worlds, I think they should be a stronger economically. The JP apparently fought the Imperium, which would have been primarily the Antares and Lishun sector worlds, to a standstill. But in order to do that, you need to have a better economic backup. I don't know all the history of Gashikan, but if we're increasing the economy of the Julian protectorate, we may want to review the Gashikan empire too.

I have no suggestions for Tienspevnekr sector.
 
Thanks Thomas!

Garnfellow: do you want to take a stab at adjustments in the rimward 4?

Thomas: I don't suppose you want to tackle Mendan and Amdukan?

(Ideal format to send me would be a tab delimited dump of sector/hex/uwp but I'm flexible.)

In Mendan and Amdukan, the Julian Protectorate worlds, I think they should be a stronger economically. The JP apparently fought the Imperium, which would have been primarily the Antares and Lishun sector worlds, to a standstill. But in order to do that, you need to have a better economic backup. I don't know all the history of Gashikan, but if we're increasing the economy of the Julian protectorate, we may want to review the Gashikan empire too.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Julian_Protectorate#Historical_Eras gives various hints. Circa 1105 the Julian War was a long, long time ago, so not sure that is relevant. But in 1116 (the near "future" as far as our dataset is concerned) the navy (Star Legion) is once again comparable to the Imperial forces it faces so... yeah, an economic boost seems necessary.

Per http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Empire_of_Gashikan "The Empire is not a serious overt threat to the dynamic Julian Protectorate"; if the Julian sectors get an economic boost then Gash/Tren are probably okay as-is?
 
Thanks Thomas!

Garnfellow: do you want to take a stab at adjustments in the rimward 4?
Yeah, it might take a couple of weeks. Thomas, what are you thinking for targets? Aldebaran can certainly be plumped up -- both Quesada and the French Republic have always seemed a little anemic. I am a little reluctant to do much with the rimward quadrants only because, as you noted, they are canonically still frontiers in 1105. Conversely, the coreward quadrants of all four sectors can get a boost. I think I only held back because many of the adjacent subsectors in the Rim and Alpha Crucis are described as relatively newly settled as of 1105 -- for example Jardin, or Kukulkan.
 
Thomas, what are you thinking for targets? Aldebaran can certainly be plumped up -- both Quesada and the French Republic have always seemed a little anemic. I am a little reluctant to do much with the rimward quadrants only because, as you noted, they are canonically still frontiers in 1105. Conversely, the coreward quadrants of all four sectors can get a boost. I think I only held back because many of the adjacent subsectors in the Rim and Alpha Crucis are described as relatively newly settled as of 1105 -- for example Jardin, or Kukulkan.

My back of the envelope suggestion was to try and just about double the sector wide population of Aldeberan and up the population of Canopus and Neworld by about 50%. The challenge with Neworld will appear to be it's lack of stellar density.

I'm not making specific suggestions about how to increase either of these things beyond the most basic of suggestions because I've never done it before. If you don't mind I'll work through Mendan and Amdukan to see if I can improve the Julian Protectorate worlds. And write a blog post about the process.

This isn't an area of space I have a lot of background on, so I'm likely to break something.
 
In looking at the Julian Protectorate, there are two things I'd like to add to this process, at least specifically for me.

Add the sectors Arzul and Star's End to the review list. I'm happy to the T5 review process (generate Ex, Cx, worlds, calculate Ru , make sure everything lint clean, etc). But there is about 8 subsectors worth of worlds in that area that really should be part of the mix.

I would love to have a way to mark comm/trade routes in the sector data to include it on the maps. I know we've had a discussion like this in the email list, but never came up with a consensus.
 
Add the sectors Arzul and Star's End to the review list.

That's doable. As a sanity check, I ran the Gashikan sectors through the code in https://github.com/inexorabletash/travellermap/blob/master/res/t5ss/t5ify.js to compute the inputs to the spreadsheet and fill in additional details.

I would love to have a way to mark comm/trade routes in the sector data to include it on the maps. I know we've had a discussion like this in the email list, but never came up with a consensus.

I'm worried about trade route data blowing up the dataset the server wrangles. Or do you mean actually including the com routes as e.g. remarks in the tabular data?
 
I'm worried about trade route data blowing up the dataset the server wrangles. Or do you mean actually including the com routes as e.g. remarks in the tabular data?

Including the x-boat routes that are already on the maps as remarks in the tabular data.

I was looking at either generating new routes or using the existing data to mark which worlds should be enhanced or upgraded first. Digging that out from either the map or the XML file is time consuming.
 
Including the x-boat routes that are already on the maps as remarks in the tabular data.

I've tossed in a routes parameter that should generate what you need, if you're requesting T5-format data. Example:

https://travellermap.com/data/spin?routes=1

It's not very efficient since it's just for this sort of process at the moment. Adds a new "Routes" column. Format is a space-delimited list of routes. A route is:

<prefix>:<hex>
<prefix>:<sector>-<hex>

Where <prefix> is "Xb" for explicit Xboat routes or anything not specifically tagged in the Type attribute of the <Route> element, and "Tr" for anything else (short for Trade). That lumps in trade routes, shipping routes, and the rift crossing jump routes.

<hex> is the usual XXYY and <sector> is the 3 or 4 character abbreviation.

So Trin has:
Code:
Xb:2936 Xb:3032 Xb:Dene-0233
This should disregard start/end location in the data so each route should be listed for both the "start" and "end" world, and regardless of sector.
 
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In going through the Arzul sector and updating the existing data to T5 standards, I realized there was one check we're not doing (to my knowledge), but Don was for the T5SS review he was performing.

One of the ongoing complaints from the realism in Traveller angle was that small worlds (size 4 and smaller) are not large enough to hold any kind of atmosphere. There have been various handwaves applied: high density worlds (except some of them need to be denser than any known material), terraforming efforts, and so on. One of the worlds in GT:Rim of Fire has an Ancients plastic bag wrapped around it to hold in the atmosphere.

Don felt that is was perfectly fine to adjust the UWP to have things make better sense. I believe the rule was size 4 worlds could have vThin (3 or less) atmospheres, and size 3 or smaller worlds could only have trace (1 or less). And if you encountered a world outside of these boundaries (e.g a size 3 world with a Dense (8) atmosphere), either the size was adjusted up (to 5) or the atmosphere was adjusted down.

For places like the Spinward Marches, the former (adjust planet size up) was taken. It's been noted a couple of times here on these boards about why the T5SS data is different than all the other historical publications in this regard.
 
One of the ongoing complaints from the realism in Traveller angle was that small worlds (size 4 and smaller) are not large enough to hold any kind of atmosphere. There have been various handwaves applied: high density worlds (except some of them need to be denser than any known material), terraforming efforts, and so on. One of the worlds in GT:Rim of Fire has an Ancients plastic bag wrapped around it to hold in the atmosphere.

1... highest SG metal I can find readily is Platinum at around 21 kg/L (=Tonnes/m³). Rocky planets (Earth 5,5, Mars 3.9), and unreliable refs to Osmium and Iridium around 22.5 kg/L, but I've read that all three can have SG increased about 10% for extremely dense configureations. Osmium doped diamonds should be able to go above that, too

2... Pluto holds an atmosphere at size 1. (1475km) But only when it's not frozen out.
Titan (5151 km) also holds an atmosphere at size 3, full time. ANd it's density is 1.88...
Several other moons have atmospheres at sizes S, 0, 1, 2, and 3.
Comets can outgass a trace or even very thin atmosphere at surface... it doesn't LAST, but it does exist.
 
I've attached the Arzul sector as a tab separated file. It passes the sector lint and the T5 regen checks. I still need to do the Owned Worlds report.

Up next, assuming reviews pass, would be Stars End.

I've not done anything with the routing checks yet.
 

Attachments

2... Pluto holds an atmosphere at size 1. (1475km) But only when it's not frozen out.
Titan (5151 km) also holds an atmosphere at size 3, full time. ANd it's density is 1.88...

Pluto certainly qualifies as Trace. But yeah, Titan is interesting. Can you only have a world that small with a dense atmosphere if it's also exotic? What role does being that distance from the Sun (i.e. cold) and/or being a satellite play? (Per Wikipedia, the science is still in progress.)

I'll toss in a size check allowing for exotic atmospheres and see what turns up.
 
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