OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

[Garnfellow]

This is relevent to Aldebaran: I originally generated the planetary data using GURPS: Interstellar Wars, which allows for worlds of size 3-4 with atmospheres of A (and maybe B?). You can also get this combo with Mongoose Traveller's "Hard Science" worldgen.

This combination is impossible to create through CT worldgen or T5 mainworld generation (though it is possible via non-mainworld gen). Size 3 worlds are limited to Atmo of 0-8, Size 4 to Atmo of 0-9.

I checked Traveller Map and I don't believe I found any exception to these limits in the reviewed data.

So here's my question: could, should the T5SS allow for planetary combos that are plausible but cannot be created through worldgen?

Similar question: I don't think I saw any worlds in the reviewed data that had sizes larger than A, even though these are both plausible and can be created through T5 worldgen. Should some of the larger sizes be folded into the dataset?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

From a game standpoint if you do not wish to change the UWP too muchsince the science is still out...

Maybe Cold slows down the atmosphere depletion?

Designate some worlds that have an atmosphere, but due to size should be vacuum
Give Trace atmo and the Cold ( Co ) Trade Remark
OR
Give Very Thin Atmo and Frozen ( Fr ) Trade Remark
OR
do something similar for exotics, just add the trade code (Co or Fr) and call it a day?

The same if it is a thicker atmo but should at best be trace, also if it at best be vthin and so on....

 

[aramis]

Pluto certainly qualifies as Trace. But yeah, Titan is interesting. Can you only have a world that small with a dense atmosphere if it's also exotic? What role does being that distance from the Sun (i.e. cold) and/or being a satellite play? (Per Wikipedia, the science is still in progress.)

I'll toss in a size check allowing for exotic atmospheres and see what turns up.

Unless using MGT gen, you won't get an exotic atmosphere on a world that small, as max atmosphere is size +5... and exotic is 10 (A)...

 

[aramis]

From a game standpoint if you do not wish to change the UWP too muchsince the science is still out...

Maybe Cold slows down the atmosphere depletion?

Known factors:
solar wind (subject to inverse square re primary distance; attenuated by magnetic field)
Temperature (subject to inverse square re primary distance; affected by albedo)
local gravity (Size relationship)

So, two factors are known by the simple kinetic physics...

Higher temperature means more bounce from surface.
Closer to star increases solar wind strength, and thus both energizing the upper atmosphere and kicking upper atmosphere out, as well as fracturing upper atmosphere molecules into component atoms, which gravity sorts by density (and on earth, minimum molecular weight retained is apparently about 5...

Larger bodies have higher mass and are more likely to have a magnetosphere.

Also, many of the fluids in the moon atmospheres are complex hydrocarbons - and those have higher molecular masses (and thus lower velocities at temperature)...

 

[tjoneslo]

I realized while doing Star's End sector, we're going to need to add at least two new T5 Allegiance codes.

KkTw : Kk : K'kree Two Thousand Worlds
CsTw : KC : Client State, Two Thousand worlds

The KkTw isn't used in the current data sets, but if we keep expanding to trailing, we will soon. Star's End has a big chunk of TW Client state world.

 

[inexorabletash]

I've attached the Arzul sector as a tab separated file. It passes the sector lint and the T5 regen checks. I still need to do the Owned Worlds report.

Up next, assuming reviews pass, would be Stars End.

I've got Arzul and Star's End up on the site now for review. Enjoy!

 

[estar]

When deciding whether a small world has a dense atmosphere one should consider whether there is a geological and/or biological process at play. Particularly if that process causes atmosphere gases to be bound and released in a regular cycle.

As for Titan looks like it a combination of being in Saturn magnetosphere and colder temperatures.

http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...n-able-to-maintain-an-atmosphere-and-not-luna

 

[dalthor]

Research Stations

I was doing some planning for MTU on research stations, deciding what I wanted as the relevant project. I couldn't find an OTU list of topics specific to any given station, and only recall the Jump Institute of Deneb.

Ran GREP to pull the research stations from the most recent data I downloaded from Traveller Map, with the results below.

Note that some stations are listed only as Rs, with no greek letter associated. I've taken the liberty of suggesting something for those stations due to the lack of information to the contrary.

Sector           Hex  World           UWP       Current  Proposed
---------------- ---- --------------- --------- -------  --------
Core             0806 Sable           A312531-F   RsB      
Core             0919 Coppelia        C550154-A   RsG      
Core             0140 Reference       B100727-C   RsA      
Corridor         0205 Koergfoes       B54359A-B   RsE      
Corridor         0910 Drayne          B6749C9-C   RsB      
Corridor         2603 Chosen          C534544-8   RsA      
Corridor         1432 Tarin Sink      DAE5301-6   RsG      
Corridor         2937 Hendrick        C420342-9   RsD      
Dagudashaag      2603 Khi             A685202-E   RsA      
Daibei           0410 Jurin           A85A166-F   RsA      
Deneb            3104 Aerfor          A584520-D   RsD      
Deneb            0113 Saarinen        B566212-8   RsE      
Deneb            1417 Starn           B000996-F   RsB      
Deneb            2126 Arcanum         X434868-6   RsA      
Deneb            2522 Maelstrom       B79A855-D   RsG      
Deneb            1432 Pashus          A432455-G   RsZ      
Diaspora         1521 St. James       C553410-9   RsB      
Diaspora         2125 Moncton         E8A3596-8   RsD      
Diaspora         3129 Sittahr         C766530-9   RsG      
Diaspora         2933 Quarry          B99A343-D   RsA      
Magyar           1619 Intress         C6A3435-A   Rs       RsB
Magyar           1326 Ramanar         A643755-D   Rs       RsE
Magyar           2924 Leikung         C798555-A   RsA      
Magyar           0540 Ziarko          A201301-E   Rs       RsG
Magyar           1236 Chuño           B566245-B   Rs       RsZ
Magyar           2932 Bouzouba        C586202-A   Rs       RsD
Massilia         1508 Gasha           A550510-D   RsA      
Massilia         2306 Terelleresika   A542531-C   RsG      
Massilia         1215 Gurvin          A796656-D   RsD      
Massilia         3131 Dobaran         A793330-D   RsB      
Old_Expanses     1101 Mizar-5         C310500-C   RsA      
Old_Expanses     1809 Louks           D9AA613-9   RsE      
Old_Expanses     0512 Waroh           A789846-D   RsB      
Old_Expanses     0712 Sulthanbran     B000732-D   RsG      
Old_Expanses     2726 Lannor          C543755-9   RsD      
Reft_Sector      0313 Helifil         D310724-8   RsB      
Reft_Sector      2832 Debica          D645688-6   RsA      
Solomani_Rim     0907 Llewellyn       B20058A-D   RsD      
Solomani_Rim     3009 Shapam          C432533-B   RsA      
Solomani_Rim     1917 Asterr Tyui     A666986-E   RsG      
Solomani_Rim     2720 Nyarlathotep    C000267-C   RsB      
Solomani_Rim     2536 Carchemish      D778169-7   Rs       RsE
Spinward_Marches 2110 Yori            C560757-A   RsB      
Spinward_Marches 0416 Retinae         E8C69AA-9   RsD      
Spinward_Marches 2415 Vreibefger      E581542-3   RsE      
Spinward_Marches 3119 Vanejen         C686854-5   RsG      
Spinward_Marches 2728 Duale           A5437BF-B   RsA      
Spinward_Marches 0539 Froin           C535225-9   RsZ      
Spinward_Marches 1337 Judice          E9B2000-0   RsT      
Trojan_Reach     3003 627-301         X000120-7   RsB      
Trojan_Reach     1118 Dostoevsky      B678673-A   RsD      
Trojan_Reach     2915 Sabruse         EAC8343-9   RsA      
Trojan_Reach     0234 Aehahr          B100449-C   Rs       RsE
Trojan_Reach     1735 Ayayo           B000674-D   Rs       RsZ
Trojan_Reach     2938 Sarage          B540523-B   RsG      
Vland            2938 Punnari         B737358-D   RsA      
Zarushagar       2820 Hefei           B300200-C   RsA      
Zarushagar       2928 Dothama         A584561-D   RsB

Here is a list I use IMTU for research topics. This is far from exhaustive, and additions and/or suggested changes would be welcome.

Possible research areas:

- Anagathics/anti-agathics
- Antimatter and power technology
- Armor, usually hull-related
- Artificial intelligence
- Bionics
- Black hole research
- Communications technology
- Computer/processing technology
- Cryptography/cryptanalysis
- Cybernetics
- Deep planetary core sounding/radar analysis
- Defensive technology, usually hull-related
- FTL travel and/or communication
- Genetic engineering/manipulation
- Gravitics
- High temperature superconductors
- Holography
- Jump technology, including super-jump
- Lasers, including x-ray and other types
- Long-range detection systems (includes sensors)
- Matter transmisson
- Nova/supernova prediction and prevention
- Personal shield technology
- Pharmacology
- Population behavior prediction and psychohistory
- Psionics
- Robotics
- Stable super-heavy elements
- Stasis and time travel
- Terraforming
- Weapons research
- World-moving (for example, a Klemperer rosette of worlds -- remember the Puppeteers?)

 

[Garnfellow]

The unlettered research stations in Magyar are all in the Solomani Confederation. It's unclear to me if these are legit or unflagged errors from back in the Sunbane era.

 

[dalthor]

The unlettered research stations in Magyar are all in the Solomani Confederation. It's unclear to me if these are legit or unflagged errors from back in the Sunbane era.

From the Wiki:

Leikung (Magyar 2924) is RsA
Chuno (Magyar 1236) is RsM

The others in Magyar sector are not found on the Wiki site.

The unnamed RS at Carchemish (Solmani Rim 2536) is also not found on the Wiki.

Not sure what all the data sources are for the individual locations, and I should probably cross-reference TravMap versus the Wiki and find the disparities.

I'll also try to see what the original Sunbane files show...one of these daze.

LOL

 

[Garnfellow]

From the Wiki:

Leikung (Magyar 2924) is RsA
Chuno (Magyar 1236) is RsM

The others in Magyar sector are not found on the Wiki site.

The unnamed RS at Carchemish (Solmani Rim 2536) is also not found on the Wiki.

Not sure what all the data sources are for the individual locations, and I should probably cross-reference TravMap versus the Wiki and find the disparities.

I'll also try to see what the original Sunbane files show...one of these daze.

LOL

Chuno is the only one with a canonical reference.

 

[tjoneslo]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/v88n8h8jkrdt6td/AACoVZrR8SPrC6kzqRW68W2Ia?dl=0

This is the folder with the Amdukan, Arzul, Mendan, and Star's End sectors in the tab separated filed per request

The biggest change I made was, after reading the Julian Protectorate sources, was to add "VargN" to a significant number worlds in the four sectors, especially throughout the Julian Protectorate worlds. The sources state there should be about an equal number of Vargr and Humans in JP, but not evenly distributed. Especially to coreward and the Gashikan empire.

I ran the owned world report, and update most of the owned worlds and the bases in Arzul and Star's End.

The one change that should be made is the routes in the Star's End sector are listed as "Trade Routes", but the rest of the Julian Protectorate routes are "XBoat" routes. This should be made consistent.

I need to re-do the owned world reports again to fill in the last few missing worlds. And I'm looking through the economics of the various places to enhance the Julian Protectorate to a moderate degree.

 

[inexorabletash]

This is the folder with the Amdukan, Arzul, Mendan, and Star's End sectors in the tab separated filed per request

Data checked, merged into the spreadsheets and pushed to the site.

Only one typo I had to fix: "Vag1" -> "Varg1"

EDIT: Oops, and "Vart1" -> "Varg1"

Only errors noted from my checker:

Amdukan
417 world(s) - population: 465.44 billion
Warning: Route length 5: 2640 3138

Mendan
446 world(s) - population: 553.84 billion
Warning: Gov 6 missing O:/Mr/Re/Px, line 33: Mend E 0320 Siirash C310265-A Lo Varg5 104 NaHu F9 V { 0 } (E11+2) [426E] 11 28
Warning: Gov 6 missing O:/Mr/Re/Px, line 70: Mend M 0531 Anked B562766-6 Ri Huma5 124 NaVa G2 V { 1 } (56A-3) [2856] 16 -900
Warning: Gov 6 missing O:/Mr/Re/Px, line 140: Mend F 1116 Kigabala C200365-8 M Lo Va Varg4 702 NaHu G7 V { -2 } (721+3) [1149] 9 42

The one change that should be made is the routes in the Star's End sector are listed as "Trade Routes", but the rest of the Julian Protectorate routes are "XBoat" routes. This should be made consistent.

Not fixed yet, I'll get to that later.

EDIT: Now fixed, thanks.

EDIT: One more code nit:

In Star's End, there's an ownership code: O:Gh!k-0137

Per MWM, sector abbreviations replace non-alphanumerics with 'X' so that should be GhXk

 

[tjoneslo]

In working through the Mendan sector to adjust the population and economics of the Julian Protectorate, I started by looking at the simple solution, adjusting up the TLs for the worlds. This has the most direct impact on the GWPs. Except, of course, the TL of each world is tightly determined by a host of modifiers and simply adding 3 to 5 to everyone's TL would make many of them incorrect according to the rules as written.

The biggest modifier to TL is the Port. Meaning if you adjust the Port from C or D to A or B, you get a +4 or +2 to the allowed TLs.

The distribution of ports is well defined (Section B, table 1a, page 408 in the 5.09 rules). So it should be easy to calculate if the distribution of ports measures up to the "random" distribution or if it should be adjusted. This is for the Mendan Sector.

Port	Count	Estimate
A	44	75.82
B	83	111.5
C	207	138.26
D	32	49.06
E	72	62.44
X	4	13.38

So this is wrong.

Instead, if we shift the frequency of the ports to use the following table:
2-3 = A, 4-5 =B, 5-8 =C, 9=D, 10-11 = D, 12 = X.

Using the probabilities for this, I get the following estimate for the distribution of ports.

Port	Count	Estimate
A	44	40.14
B	83	84.74
C	207	200.7
D	32	49.06
E	72	62.44
X	4	13.38

Which is really pretty exacting. If we call the port distribution in the rules a "Core" area, this would make for a really good definition of a "backwater" or "peripheral" area. Long settled, but not the economic or political center of the universe.

And since I'm on this tear, let's define two more possible area types.

Frontier: Area in the middle of being developed. Even less economically active than the periphery, with a fair number of undeveloper or unexplored worlds. Essentially a +1 DM port table:
2-3= A, 4-5=B, 6-7=C, 8=D, 9-10=E, 11-12 = X

Colonizing: Area in the first stages of being colonized. Few scatted high tech areas with vast swaths of unexplored or un-touched territory.
2=A, 3=B, 4=5=C, 6-7=D, 8-9=E, 10-12=X

Port	Core	Periphery	Frontier	Colonizing
A	75.82	40.14	40.14	13.38
B	111.5	84.74	84.74	26.76
C	138.26	200.7	138.26	84.74
D	49.06	49.06	62.44	138.26
E	62.44	62.44	84.74	111.5
X	13.38	13.38	40.14	75.82

The point of this is, the Mendan sector was generated with a slightly different distribution of ports. A Periphery area rather than a core area. The argument I was making earlier regarding the economic strength of the JP, they should be more of a Core area rather than a periphery. Which means for the JP, (but only those worlds) I was going to re-distribute the ports based upon a core area, regenerate the TLs, and recalculate the economic strengths of the worlds affected.

For worlds not in the JP, especially in the Arzul and Star's End sectors should, or remain, Periphery or Frontiers.

 

[Garnfellow]

In working through the Mendan sector to adjust the population and economics of the Julian Protectorate, I started by looking at the simple solution, adjusting up the TLs for the worlds. This has the most direct impact on the GWPs. Except, of course, the TL of each world is tightly determined by a host of modifiers and simply adding 3 to 5 to everyone's TL would make many of them incorrect according to the rules as written.

MegaTraveller broke port tables into similar classifications for backwater, standard, mature, and cluster regions. Somewhere I ran the probabilities for cluster, since some Confederation areas are supposed to use those. It would be interesting to see how Mendan compares to those other categories.

 

[tjoneslo]

Thank you for pointing that table to me.

Core = Standard from the MT rules
Periphery = Backwater from the MT rules.
Frontier / Colonizing = The two I just specified
Mature / Cluster = the other two from the MT rules, which makes for higher TL/richer worlds.

Port	Core	Periphery	Frontier	Colonizing	Mature	Cluster
A	75.82	40.14		40.14		13.38		75.82	124.88
B	111.5	84.74		84.74		26.76		111.5	138.26
C	138.26	200.7		138.26		84.74		138.26	111.5
D	49.06	49.06		62.44		138.26		49.06	35.68
E	62.44	62.44		84.74		111.5		75.82	26.76
X	13.38	13.38		40.14		75.82		0	13.38
						
	450.46	450.46		450.46		450.46		450.46	450.46

And to be clear, the numbers in the table are the number of worlds that should have the port type out of the total of 450 worlds.

On review both Mendan and Amdukan, and probably Meshan sectors were all generated using the "Backwater" port distributions. Empty Quarter matches Core/Standard port distribution.

Both Arzul and Star's end have a more complicated distribution, but since both are major rift areas, the unexplored worlds in the rifts throw the distributions.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Should each of the member states of the Julian Protectorate be developed separately and then put into a conglomerate? Because that is the impression I get from their cohesion. Each state has a different set of social and economic pros and cons. Then each contributes to the overall Protectorate such that they were able to stave off the Imperium during the Julian War and later during Rebellion.

$.02 from your trusted interstellar news source.

 

[tjoneslo]

Should each of the member states of the Julian Protectorate be developed separately and then put into a conglomerate? Because that is the impression I get from their cohesion. Each state has a different set of social and economic pros and cons. Then each contributes to the overall Protectorate such that they were able to stave off the Imperium during the Julian War and later during Rebellion.

$.02 from your trusted interstellar news source.

I'm approaching this backwards. That is, I'm interested in the final result (overall economic strength of the JP) and willing to adjust the development of the whole and parts to meet my pre-judged outcome.

But re-reading the materials again, I've not convinced myself this is a requirement. The Antares Pacification Campaign (97 to 114) and the Julian War (175-191) were both a long time ago when the Imperium was much weaker. In the ensuing years, there was no real conflict between the Imperium and the JP.

In the rebellion era, there is no war between the Imperium and the JP. Archduke Brzk simply claimed the Domain of Antares independent. And convinced the JP to back him. But in reading this it seems Brzk simply wanted a wall at his back, and not have to fight a two front war. Like was happening in Corridor. The JP corporations were friendly with the Vargr across Mendan and Meshan sectors and kept most of the raiders at bay with diplomacy and corporate trade policies. The looting in Corridor probably attracted most of the aggressive Vargr bands.

If the Imperium is, between 191 (the end of the Julian war) and 1105 thinking of assaulting the JP, the Star Legion needs to demonstrate the fleet strength to stand up to the Imperial forces. In 1105, this would mean the Domain of Antares (1289 worlds from Lishun, Antares, and parts of Empty Quarter) vs the JP (1048 worlds). I think we could have a long argument about what the JP fleet strength and base TLs' need to be to convince the Archduke of Antares that breaking a treaty and re-starting a war is not in his best interest.

The other hints I can find is in the discussion of the interactions with Gashikan empire, referring to the JP as "dynamic" and "properous". It also makes notes that Asimikigir and Mendan (in the Mendan sector) are the economic center of the JP, with the trailing sectors being less economically developed.

The problem is by analysis this spinward/trailing economic balance is backwards. So the choice ends up being either to suppress the trailing sectors, or enhance the spinward ones to match the write-ups. And the choice I'm making is to enhance the spinward sectors.

You are probably right and I should spend more effort upgrading the worlds of the Commonwealth of Mendan and the Asimikigir Confederation over the the rest of the worlds (with Rukadukaz Republic an easy third).

 

[tjoneslo]

Speaking of port codes.

There was a debate during the previous T5 reviews regarding barren worlds and the X vs E ports. The original ruling was X ports were reserved for truly unexplored worlds. Worlds mapped (by the IISS) were to be given an E status, because usually the IISS (or corporate exploitation team) would leave behind one or more orbital or ground beacons, classifying the world as having an E port.

That got changed back and forth a couple of times. Does anyone know the true status of that now?

 

[aramis]

Speaking of port codes.

There was a debate during the previous T5 reviews regarding barren worlds and the X vs E ports. The original ruling was X ports were reserved for truly unexplored worlds. Worlds mapped (by the IISS) were to be given an E status, because usually the IISS (or corporate exploitation team) would leave behind one or more orbital or ground beacons, classifying the world as having an E port.

That got changed back and forth a couple of times. Does anyone know the true status of that now?

I've not heard a decision one way or the other...