• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.
  • We, the systems administration staff, apologize for this unexpected outage of the boards. We have resolved the root cause of the problem and there should be no further disruptions.

OTU Only: T5SS Semi-Official Thread

This also brings up an interesting corner case. It is legal to have a UWP population of 0, but still have the population multiplier (PBG) be greater than 0. What is the correct trade code (Ba or Lo) for this world? I have found real versions of the case, one in the TNE data from the Regency Sourcebook, one in the Knoellighz data.

I think the answer is neither. Technically, in T5 a UWP pop of 0 requires a population multiplier of 0, but Barren worlds demonstrate a bizarre quirk in T5 world generation.

T5 Version 5.0 basically omits the population multiplier completely. Page 431 explains what the “P” in PBG means, and page 31 explains how to generate a range from 0-9, but there is no designated place in the worldgen sequence where the Population Digit is determined.

T5 Version 5.09 addresses this omission, but overcorrects: generation of the population multiplier occurs in two places in the sequence: on page 408, Chart B, step 4p (before the Pop code is generated), and again on page 409, Chart C. Step 4p notes that if Pop = 0, then the pop multiplier = 0 but unfortunately this note is not carried over to Chart C and so is easily missed.

In T5 Version 5, the summary of SAHPGL-T on page 432 notes that “if Pop=0, Gov=0” and “if Pop=0, Law=0.” This does not appear to have been carried over to version 5.09 and I honestly don’t know if this was intentional or not. Personally, I think this omission is a mistake.

If you put this together, if Pop=0 then the Population Digit=0, Gov=0, and Law=0. This is about 2.8% of all worlds.

The next question then, is, do we generate a TL for Pop 0 worlds? Though illogical at first blush, T5 seems to suggest that we do, even though there are no TL modifiers for a Pop 0 world.

Starports, of course, are generated independently of population. T5 provides that Pop 0 worlds can still have starports: “A character born on a world with Trade Classification = Ba Barren or = Di Dieback was born at the local starport.” This strongly suggests that the population of the starport (and by extension I would include any associated base) is not included in the mainworld population count.

As starports are probably the most significant driver of TL, a Pop 0 world with a Class A starport could have a TL ranging anywhere from 8 up to 16 (A000000-G).

This is where things get a bit strange. The Barren and Dieback Trade classifications both require Pop=0, Gov=0, and Law=0.

Barren further requires TL 0 and “Starport E, X” per the note at the top of Chart D on page 410. Putting this all together, barren worlds are Starport E, X; Pop=0, Gov=0, Law=0, and TL=0.

The “Dieback” trade classification requires a non-zero TL and is described as a world “once extensively settled and developed, but at some time in the last thousand years its inhabiting sophonts died out leaving behind the remnants of their civilization.” (page 490). Imagine a “City on the Edge of Forever” type dead world.

Fine, but because there are no TL modifiers for Pop 0 worlds, Barren worlds are almost impossible to generate. Consider: we can never generate a Barren world with a Class E starport. Remember, there is no TL modifier for Pop 0, but Pop 0 = Gov 0, and Gov is a +1 mod to TL. So the lowest possible TL for a Pop 0 world with an E starport is TL 2.

This means that the vast majority of Pop 0 worlds are diebacks. But not all Pop 0 worlds are great candidates for having been “once extensively settled and developed.” In fact, because there is an inverse relationship between planetary habitability and Tech Level, the worlds least likely to support native life are the ones most likely to get a Dieback trade classification.

Consider a world with a UWP like A000000-B. Sure, it could have once been the site of a large mining habitat that suffered a catastrophic failure of its atmo processing center. Or it could just be the equivalent of a major truckstop in the middle of the desert: a starport strategically located on an important trade route. We don't need a dead civilization to justify a Pop 0 mainworld and a TL above 0.

Although the prevalence of diebacks probably fits with the commonality of Native Intelligent Life as detailed on Chart F (page 410), it seems really hinky to me. It seems easier to just impose a negative modifier for Pop 0 worlds when determining TL – maybe something like -2 or -4. It would slightly increase the number of barren worlds, reduce the number of dieback worlds, but still give us plenty of diebacks to explore. I would also be inclined to restrict the Di trade classification to Starports E or X.
 
Last edited:
I've attached the owned worlds report for Trenchans and Gashikan.

Finally looking at this. Are the report columns: world w/ captive govt, current owner, best prospective owner, next best, etc... ?

Two questions:

  • Do you know what process, if any, DonM followed for selecting the owner? Always picked first or ... ?
  • A number have no prospective owners listed, e.g. Mibigaarmu (Gashikan 1315) - do you know what process to follow here?
 
Finally looking at this. Are the report columns: world w/ captive govt, current owner, best prospective owner, next best, etc... ?

If I can be nitpicky, it would accelerate the process if there were additional columns containing codes. I can transform it easily enough, but since we're all happy coders here...

e.g. something like this, as extra columns tacked on the end or interleaved with the current ones.

Code:
Sector | Hex  | Curr | 1      | 2      | 3           | 4 
Amdu   | 0407 |      | O:0209 | O:0308 | O:Mend-3205 | O:Mend-3208

Again, I can transform into this with a few lines of perl so not urgent.
 
Finally looking at this. Are the report columns: world w/ captive govt, current owner, best prospective owner, next best, etc... ?

Two questions:

  • Do you know what process, if any, DonM followed for selecting the owner? Always picked first or ... ?
  • A number have no prospective owners listed, e.g. Mibigaarmu (Gashikan 1315) - do you know what process to follow here?

The report columns are:
  1. The world which has a government type 6
  2. The currently listed owner, None if none listed, Mr or Re if selected, or world name from O:xxxx if present
  3. The next four columns are the mostly likely owners, sorted by importance - distance, then by population.

I don't know the exact details of how Don selected which option as he never shared the details of the review process. The list is sorted so the first one is the "best" one, but it is only a recommendation.

For the worlds with no perspective owners, There were two, possibly three options.

  1. Add the Military Rule (Mr) or Reserve (Re) trade code to the world. All governments can use the former. I don't remember any world outside of the Imperium having a Re code.
  2. Change the government type. This was the fallback position for most of the worlds missing a good selection. Loosing a few
  3. Take Garnfellow's approach and apply the rules in the T5.09 page 410. Find the most important, highest population, highest TL world in 6 parsecs and make that the owner.

If I can be nitpicky, it would accelerate the process if there were additional columns containing codes. I can transform it easily enough, but since we're all happy coders here...

e.g. something like this, as extra columns tacked on the end or interleaved with the current ones.

Code:
Sector | Hex  | Curr | 1      | 2      | 3           | 4 
Amdu   | 0407 |      | O:0209 | O:0308 | O:Mend-3205 | O:Mend-3208

Again, I can transform into this with a few lines of perl so not urgent.

This is not a problem. The format being used was the most simple output and DonM never asked for another one. Let me work this up and give you new spreadsheets.
 
  1. Add the Military Rule (Mr) or Reserve (Re) trade code to the world. All governments can use the former. I don't remember any world outside of the Imperium having a Re code.
  2. Change the government type. This was the fallback position for most of the worlds missing a good selection. Loosing a few
  3. Take Garnfellow's approach and apply the rules in the T5.09 page 410. Find the most important, highest population, highest TL world in 6 parsecs and make that the owner.

Thanks. I'll give this a whirl. I suppose for non-Imperial worlds it will be quite subjective; Mr only makes sense for aligned worlds.

What are the implications of changing Gov? Adjust Law (=Gov + Flux, so Law' = Law - Gov + Gov'); anything else?
 
I think the answer is neither. Technically, in T5 a UWP pop of 0 requires a population multiplier of 0, but Barren worlds demonstrate a bizarre quirk in T5 world generation.
The T5 world generation process follows all the other versions from previous versions of Traveller. The system produces worlds (as you note in detail) which are suited to being part of the Imperium during the 1100 to 1120 time frame. It is quite clear the generator system won't generate all the possible worlds, especially won't generate them in range of values reflecting different eras or areas. Different eras, for example, TNE or Milieu 0 or Interstellar Wars era. And different areas, for example real borders into uncharted and uninhabited territory

So your analysis is both good and correct. I think that it points out more strongly that the system needs a set of modifiers and/or changes in processing order to reflect the different types of campaigns for Traveller.

I think we need the following types of area/era:

  • The unexplored, uncharted worlds: Port is X, Pop, Gov, Law and TL are 0. roll planets size, atmo, hydro per normal. Ex should have resources rolled, but other values are 0 : (X00-5) . Cx is [0000]. Except for the occasional NIL world, which may be a Dieback world.
  • The first colonies. Worlds with garden environments and the highest resources are given populations, Gov, Law, TL and Ports. Everything else remains Barren.
  • Aftermath of the great war. Milieu 0, Hard Times, TNE, post empress wave, etc. Similar to the first colonies but with some lesser inhabited worlds. And many Dieback worlds.
  • No Lifesupport. This is a change in the technology, where the ability to have a population on a world which isn't really habitable isn't possible. The assumption here is building a large scale, long term stable life support system and habitat is much more difficult hence expensive and rare.

I'm quite sure there are more. And variation on the theme of each one.
 
What are the implications of changing Gov? Adjust Law (=Gov + Flux, so Law' = Law - Gov + Gov'); anything else?

There are three modifiers to TL based on Gov, If the government was, or is now, 0, 5, or D(13), it need to be adjusted. +1 for the first two, -2 for the third.
 
There are three modifiers to TL based on Gov, If the government was, or is now, 0, 5, or D(13), it need to be adjusted. +1 for the first two, -2 for the third.

Thanks!

Okay, I've done a first update for Amdu/Gash/Mend/Mesh/Tren - if there was a suggested O: I used it; if it was not Allegiance=Na** I specified Mr. Otherwise I left it blank for now.

Can you re-run the report as a sanity check?

Also, does your suggestion mechanism require that candidate owners have a matching allegiance? If not we may want to add an additional check that owners/owned worlds have matching allegiances.
 
I've implemented some additional checks and found plenty of out-of-range values in "In Review" sectors that I'll tackle. The only ones in "Official" sectors are:

Error: (Ex) Infrastructure out of range (Imp=1 + 2D): 0, line 402: Anta G 2117 Sabmiqys A560056-H De Fo Di (Gya Ks) R 004 ImDa G3 V { 1 } (600-4) [0000] 9 0
Error: (Ex) Resources out of range for TL8+=13 (2D+GG=1+Belts=1): 15, line 63: Reft K 1925 New Home A565857-D KM Ri Pa Ph 811 NaHu G2 V { 4 } (F7F+4) [8C5D] 15 6,300
Error: (Ex) Resources out of range for TL8+=12 (2D+GG=1+Belts=1): 15, line 71: Reft K 2322 SANSTERRE A87A943-C KM Hi In Wa 311 NaHu G9 V { 5 } (F8G+2) [6E29] 11 3,840

... but that's with some relaxing checks to match the T5SS spreadsheet rather than T5.09. (Don't grant He to Siz>A; As doesn't require Atm=0 or Hyd=0; Di/Ba don't require Gov/Law=0; TL>F doesn't get Imp+1.)

Sabmiqys is a funky case, could merit Infra 0 for some reason. Not sure about the other two.

The other thing that stands out is the use of "Di (sophont)" to indicate a dead minor race. This trips up checks for "Di"; Don started to use "Di(sophont)" in some cases which makes more sense, so I'll switch to that.

For "In Review" sectors, Alde/Cano/Lang/Newo have values out of range as noted above, as do Thet (1, where I monkeyed with a value), Tien (a bunch) and Tren (1).
 
Thanks!

Can you re-run the report as a sanity check?

Also, does your suggestion mechanism require that candidate owners have a matching allegiance? If not we may want to add an additional check that owners/owned worlds have matching allegiances.

I will run the checks again today.

The system does check, in addition to the sane port, population, and TL, that the worlds are of the same allegiance, and the potential owner is not also an owned (gov=6) world.

There are two levels of "same allegiance". The first is matching exactly the same allegiance code. The second is matching broader confederation worlds. For example, the Imperium allegiances are split between the domains, and several cultural regions. These worlds are, for purposes of owned worlds and trade purposes, in the same allegiance.

The reason for this is I'm not sure I have the Julian Protectorate and Solomani Confederation allegiances correct. If you know which ones belong together, that would be a help.

I've implemented some additional checks and found plenty of out-of-range values in "In Review" sectors that I'll tackle. The only ones in "Official" sectors are:

Error: (Ex) Infrastructure out of range (Imp=1 + 2D): 0, line 402: Anta G 2117 Sabmiqys A560056-H De Fo Di (Gya Ks) R 004 ImDa G3 V { 1 } (600-4) [0000] 9 0

Sabmiqys is a funky case, could merit Infra 0 for some reason.

Sabmiqys is a funky case. This is the planet inhabited by the highly advanced homocidal AI robots from Challenge 28. It is one of the edge cases that makes sense (mostly) from a story/gaming point of view, but gives systems like this fits.

The other thing that stands out is the use of "Di (sophont)" to indicate a dead minor race. This trips up checks for "Di"; Don started to use "Di(sophont)" in some cases which makes more sense, so I'll switch to that.

This will require a parser update for me. To be clear the code is either "Di" for a dead world with humans or other, still existing otherwhere races, and "Di(Sophont)" specifically for a dead sophont race.
 
Here's a first round of suggested changes to ownership:

  • Hanah (Canopus 1923) - Remove ownership (Reserve)
  • Tiamat (Canopus 2404) - O:2103
  • Ursula (Canopus 3023) - O:3020
  • Valence (Canopus 2202) - Remove ownership (Reserve)
  • Corbine Iv (Canopus 0311) - O:3112
  • Taronga (Canopus 3203) - O:3003
  • Vitriol (Canopus 2432) - Change Gov to 5
  • Hodel (Aldebaran 1611) - O:1314
  • Calchas (Aldebaran 1421) - O:1019
  • Corinna (Aldebaran 0209) - Remove ownership (Reserve)
  • Sinai (Aldebaran 2511) - O:2707
  • Tengfei (Aldebaran 2139) - Change Gov to 7
  • Salamis (Aldebaran 1709) - O:1808
  • Calhourn (Aldebaran 2536) - Change Gov to 5
  • Narodnya (Aldebaran 2201) - O:SOLO-2339
  • Roesaree (Aldebaran 1313) - Remove ownership (Reserve)
  • Pearmain (Neworld 2001) - Change Gov to 7
  • Garnet (Neworld 0721) - O:0720
  • Larimore (Neworld 3229) - Change Gov to 3
  • Frostigitaj (Neworld 0914) - Change Gov to 7
  • Azucena (Neworld 3224) - Change Gov to 8
  • Constance (Langere 0338) - O:0139
  • Welter (Langere 1837) - O:1539
  • Nuuage (Langere 0920) - O:0720
 
Attached is the owned worlds report for all five sectors: Amdukan, Gashikan, Mendan, Meshan, and Trenchans. These are the only ones missing.

This report is in the updated format you requested for quicker processing. I think it's right. Feedback is always appreciated.

Gash 2001 None
Gash 2214 None
Gash 2429 None
Mend 0320 None
Mend 0531 None
Mend 1116 None
Tren 0507 None
Tren 0703 None
Tren 1102 None

I've also pushed the latest version of my code to github, which includes the Cx checking code, and a few other tweaks.
 

Attachments

New Question on allegiances:

Do the non-aligned worlds in the Vargr extents get a different Allegiance code from Vargr dominated (but unaligned) worlds in other areas?

The latter has a "NaVa" code. I've seen (or been using) either "VaEx" or "VaNa" for these worlds. I know the older sectors use "Va" for these worlds to indicate they in the Vargr Extents, but not (currently) part of any larger recognized interstellar polity.
 
"Reserve," like most of the political and secondary trade classifications, is a little murky in T5 -- it's not always clear what is a rule element (applicable to anything, anywhere) and what is a setting element (applicable only to specific milieus, polities, or eras).

Although not specified in the T5 rules, I think this classification works a little like Military Rule -- if it occurs, then "ownership" is considered to be by the "regional Allegiance power" and an O:xxxx remark is unnecessary. As a corollary, you probably shouldn't have Mr or Re classifications in areas outside an interstellar polity.

It's an open question whether or not the following classifications are universally applicable outside the Imperium:
  • Px - Prison or Exile Camp
  • Mr - Military Rule
  • Re - Reserve
  • Cp - Subsector Capital
  • Cs - Sector Capital
  • Cx - Capital
  • Cy - Colony
Because the Solomani Confederation shares many cultural elements with the Third Imperium, I assumed that Px, Mr, and Re also apply to Confederation space. But these do not necessarily apply to Aslan or Hiver worlds, for example.

Or take capitals. The Aslan Hierate doesn't and probably shouldn't have sector or subsector capitals given the structure of the polity. Kusyu is considered a Cx capital but it's a special case.

But how about the hivers? The Hive Federation has a capital at Glea, but what about subsector or sector capitals? They are not specifically mentioned in either the CT alien module or GURPS Traveller: Alien Races 3, but we also don't have canonical sector data from hiver space to use as a template. (Atlas of the Imperium shows Spica sector, but does not designate capitals.) For Langere sector I designated the Langere system as a Hive Federation sector capital based on past development by either Clay Bush or Leroy Guatney, but didn't add subsector capitals.

The Solomani Confederation is a little more complicated. CT Supplement 10, CT Solomani Alien module, and GURPS Traveller: Rim of Fire all designate Confederation subsector capitals in the Solomani Rim. The Mongoose Solomani Alien Module, though, has this regarding Alpha Cruicis sector:
There is no central sector or even subsector capital: all self- governing Confederation worlds are equally independent member states. However, the Confederation Navy, Army, SolSec and the various ministries of the Solomani Party-dominated Confederation bureaucracy do maintain fleet headquarters and coordinating offices in each subsector. Unlike in the Imperium, these centres are not always located on a single subsector capital, even if that would be the most efficient way of doing things. Rather they are often divided among multiple major worlds in each subsector in order to better spread government patronage around (132).
Fortunately the Mongoose Solomani Rim supplement clarifies the situation:
In the Confederation territories of the Solomani Rim the executive power is held by the heads of state of individual worlds or by the Solomani Party leaders that pull their strings. There is no single unified subsector or sector executive: the worlds send their representatives directly to the Secretariat that governs the entire Confederation.

This means there is no sector capital: all self-governing Confederation worlds are equally independent member states. Legally speaking, there are no subsector capitals either. However, the Confederation Navy, Army, SolSec and the various ministries of the Solomani Party-dominated Confederation bureaucracy do maintain fleet headquarters and coordinating offices in each subsector. In the Solomani Rim – unlike some other sectors of the Confederation – these offices are centralised on a particular world. Imperial maps refer to these as ‘subsector capitals’ but that term is not officially used by the Solomani (16).
Based on this, I designated Confederation subsector capitals for Canopus, Aldebaran, Neworld, and Langere but did not designate sector capitals. Note that Spica does have a sector capital, Tupindur (Spica 0317) but this is probably a mistake.

There is an interesting question about Confederation member-states. Should these have their own capitals (Cx), and if so would these also function as subsector capitals or are they in addition to subsector capitals?
 
Last edited:
Salad Bar Designators

New Question on allegiances:

Do the non-aligned worlds in the Vargr extents get a different Allegiance code from Vargr dominated (but unaligned) worlds in other areas?

The latter has a "NaVa" code. I've seen (or been using) either "VaEx" or "VaNa" for these worlds. I know the older sectors use "Va" for these worlds to indicate they in the Vargr Extents, but not (currently) part of any larger recognized interstellar polity.

Some suggestions to consider, perhaps?

NaVa = Non-aligned, Vargr dominated world

Va = Vargr world, older designation

VaEx = a world found in the Vargr Extents, not necessarily Vargr dominated

VaNa = a world in the Vargr Extents, non-aligned and not Vargr dominated; this one should be avoided to prevent confusion.

VaXX = a world in the Vargr Extents, not colonized or populated for whatever reason, e.g. interdiction, too dangerous, reserved-cordoned off, etc.

VaDr = a Droyne world in the Vargr Extents, Droyne dominant; because there are a few.

VaSp = a Vargr world, Splinters; as Virus and New Era designation, temporal

VaVi = a Vargr Extents world, Virus-dominated; interdicted, blockaded, acknowledged by ouside powers, etc. Virus Era and later.

VaAw = a Vargr Extents world, awakened dominated or shared; recognized or acknowledged by outside powers, et al. Virus Era and later.

Just a few suggestions, is all.

From Interstellar Cartography, this is the Pakkrat.
 
The reason for this is I'm not sure I have the Julian Protectorate and Solomani Confederation allegiances correct. If you know which ones belong together, that would be a help.

I track that as well; it's in an auxiliary "Codes" spreadsheet (if you have access); otherwise I build it into the source - it should really be a resource file - at:

https://github.com/inexorabletash/travellermap/blob/master/server/SecondSurvey.cs#L225

The column you need is BaseCode which maps "ImDd", "ImSy" etc to generic codes like "Im", or null if it's a stand-alone. (There are some entries that should be null, like "FW", because I didn't explain to Don clearly enough I guess.)


This will require a parser update for me. To be clear the code is either "Di" for a dead world with humans or other, still existing otherwhere races, and "Di(Sophont)" specifically for a dead sophont race.

Mostly. I noticed Don added 'Di (Droyne)' on Reft 0926, and that's obviously not an extinct sophont race, nor the Droyne homeworld. (minor) and (Hminor) show up as well for unnamed minors. Apart from the Droyne one, I agree with your summary.
 
Do the non-aligned worlds in the Vargr extents get a different Allegiance code from Vargr dominated (but unaligned) worlds in other areas?

Per the allegiance code list from Don, "NaVa". "VaNa" is not used.

(I see NaHu as a shortcut for NaXX HumaW, NaVa as a shortcut for NaXX VargW, etc)
 
I've implemented some additional checks and found plenty of out-of-range values in "In Review" sectors that I'll tackle.

Attached is the latest output.

The other thing that stands out is the use of "Di (sophont)" to indicate a dead minor race. This trips up checks for "Di"; Don started to use "Di(sophont)" in some cases which makes more sense, so I'll switch to that.

Change applied, pushed live.

Here's a first round of suggested changes to ownership:

Changes incorporated, pushed live. Thanks!

Attached is the owned worlds report for all five...

Awesome, thanks!

I've also pushed the latest version of my code to github, which includes the Cx checking code, and a few other tweaks.

And for reference, my new validation code is up at: https://github.com/inexorabletash/travellermap/blob/master/server/World.cs#L324

I'm prioritizing having the checks match the spreadsheet for now to weed out bad input. The next step will be to consider deviations between the spreadsheet and T5.09 (noted with comments in the code).
 

Attachments

Whoops, one file in the attachment was truncated. Try this one:

Summary:

* Alde: 9 errors (Ex,Cx)
* Cano: 3 errors
* FarF: missing 1 owner
* Gash: missing 3 owners
* Lang: 9 errors (Ex)
* Mend: missing 3 owners
* Newo: 10 errors (Ex,Cx)
* Prov: missing 4 owners
* Thet: missing 1 owner
* Tien: 11 errors (Ex)
* Tren: missing 3 owners
* Tugl: missing 2 owners
* Wind: missing 14 owners
 

Attachments

Last edited:
Back
Top