The Alternate Timeline
- Thread starter Murph
- Start date
Assuming you saw my post before making yours, I will counter by pointing out that if you send ships some where, and they never come back, that is a really good indication that something is happening to them to the people who DIDN'T try going there.
For instance, stick your arm into a jet engine that is slowly moving toward you. Now pull it back out. If your lower arm is missing, what conclusion can you draw about sticking your head into the engine? What conclusion can people who've watched you do this can be drawn?
Perhaps, they will realize that something is coming. It's not hard at all to know when something went off the air, correlate that with other things going off the air, and triangulate where that thing is, and where it's headed.
Next, we get a J6 ship up there, and we send it as far as it can go behind the phenomenon, and if it too is lost, then we know that the end is indeed near! If it does come back, then we can easily figure out how big this thing is by backtracking the trail of debris.
For instance, stick your arm into a jet engine that is slowly moving toward you. Now pull it back out. If your lower arm is missing, what conclusion can you draw about sticking your head into the engine? What conclusion can people who've watched you do this can be drawn?
Perhaps, they will realize that something is coming. It's not hard at all to know when something went off the air, correlate that with other things going off the air, and triangulate where that thing is, and where it's headed.
Next, we get a J6 ship up there, and we send it as far as it can go behind the phenomenon, and if it too is lost, then we know that the end is indeed near! If it does come back, then we can easily figure out how big this thing is by backtracking the trail of debris.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
I posted something here (see the TNE board, 'Another Empress Wave theory' thread) and on JTAS last night that covered that point - essentially, I think the wave is 'breaking' as it reaches the imperium, and is there but at 'low amplitude' when its passes the Zho core expeditions.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
My assumption, based on the descriptions in the Regency Sourcebook, is that the government is destroyed, but the people are not. The EW doesn't seem to kill people outright, but "merely" messes them up to varying degrees.
Of course, some of the "messed up" people might kill others, but the EW probably doesn't directly kill anyone.
Fro what I remember the wave acts to destablized society of the Consulate. Could it be the Wave represents the onslaught of a dictatorship from on of their galatic colonies. It would be fitting with the name. Afterall, we keep trying to guess the physical nature of the wave. It ought to be remembered the wave also exhibits a metaphysical quality. Unless the vision that Stephon saw was that of the future Empress of the 4th Imperium...
Not wanting to turn this into a Baddies from the Core thread. BUT...
What real interests me is did the Zhodani ever bring back something really nasty from their Core expeditions that really torn into their civilization. The notes on Deep Space exploration from DGP supplement seemed to indicate that the Space is relatively empty.
Surely, there must be more advanced civilizations in the galaxy?
Not wanting to turn this into a Baddies from the Core thread. BUT...
What real interests me is did the Zhodani ever bring back something really nasty from their Core expeditions that really torn into their civilization. The notes on Deep Space exploration from DGP supplement seemed to indicate that the Space is relatively empty.
Surely, there must be more advanced civilizations in the galaxy?
notagoodusername
SOC-13
FWIW, Traveller Canon has always regarded the inhabited space region of Traveller to be an island of civilisation in the wilderness. A few reference (AFAIK) have been made ot the odd minor race outside that, but nothing big and concrete.
Shane
Murph, I used to agree with you but looking back it seems to have been an attempt at consolidation and the creation of single campaign. Even in the heyday of MegaTraveller, you did not have to play the Imperial Campaign. Supplements like Cats & Dogs, Rats & Cats or even Hard Times made it clear that there was enough room for experimentation.
Whereas, TNE sortof closed the doors. Allowing for Pocket Empires somewhere in Charted Space but firmly wedded the Imperial Campaign to whatever came next.
This could be interpeted as the gaming industry desire for large story arcs following the success of Fading Suns and Vampire. Not to mention the Forgotten Realms attempts at T$R to make one campaign.
So while they are gimmicks, Traveller has always been about gimmicks. In fact, the rules for adventure making specifically called for gimmicks, enigmas, pushes and pulls. Which accounts for the rather linear thinking that sometimes went on when the line was developing. But, it seems like it is a formulae that works.
Yeah it was like flipping AFTERMATH or Twilight 2000 in space. Too much in the way of Dues Ex Machina.
Yes, totally suspending disbelief that the comic opera Vargr could cause that much damage, and take that much of the Imperium was just far too much to swallow. The Aslan, ok, maybe on a really, really good day, and with all the imperial forces pulled out, and the system defense forces out with the flu, maybe... Nah, not happening. The first major Vargr foray gets blown to MC squared, and that is the end of that.
But if, as happened, we are FORCED to accept the deus ex machina, your solution has elegance combined with rationality.
But if, as happened, we are FORCED to accept the deus ex machina, your solution has elegance combined with rationality.
Whipsnade said:
Based on information in DGP's "Solomani and Aslan", that's not how it happened.
The Hiyueawi clan had settled across the Trans-Rift route into Trojan Reach in the past ( ~560 Imperial ) and were allied to some extent with the Darrians.
The region remained at peace for the most part until Dulinor's "dis-honorable duel". This caused many of the 29 to question relations with humans. In the political maneuverings and power shifts, the Hiyueawi clan fell from the 29 and the Hlaotiyoiho Clan replaced it part due to their outspoken and very aggressive position concerning the Imperium. When the Hlaotiyoiho Clan "conquered" the Hiyueawi holdings in the Trojan Reach, those who could not flee were forced into low caste positions while those who refused to swear fealty to the conquerors fled into Imperial territories where they had once been allies. Militant advances were stopped by Imperial forces and a no-man's land now exists between Hlaotiyoiho worlds and Imperial worlds*.
The Trojan Reach did not collapse because of a rag-tag fleet of ihatei 'colonists', but because of a dominant Clan's projection of military power into the region.
At least according to Rats'n'Cats
* as mentioned in "Hard Times"
"Hard Times" also shows Intensive war zones within the Glisten and Pax Rulin subsectors for 1125.
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But the information in Rats&Cats is more or less made up out of whole cloth with no clear appreciation of the complexities involved. The Hlaotiyoiho defeating the Hlyueawi is one thing. Doing so and going on to invade the Floriani League and the Domain of Deneb is something else entirely.
Do you know the game Diplomacy? What would happen if Russia sent all its units to attack Turkey? Dollars to doughnuts England and Germany would ally long enough to invade Russia and divvy up its northern supply centers. No, Russia has to keep some units back to guard its home teritory. Which means it has to ally with Austria in order to attack Turkey.
Well, the Hierate is a 4000 man Diplomacy game. The Hlaotiyoiho has to keep most of its forces back home to guard its homeworlds. If they don't, their neighbors are going to ally and do to them what they're busy doing to the Hlyueawi. Which means it has to ally with other clans in order to do any serious inroads on Hlyueawi holdings. Which means sharing the loot. And once it has won, it has to use more assets to guard its new territories.
And so (the story goes) the attacks on the neutral worlds, the Floriani League, and the Domain of Deneb are carried out by ihatei fleets, all of them rivals for the choisest bits of new land. And yet, the Floriani and the Domain are both unable to use a judicious blend of force and bribery to keep these rag-tag forces at bay, at a pinch diverting them to the neutral worlds of the Buffer Zone?
Yeah, right...
Hans
Nevertheless, that is how the major license holder of the time described the history of the OTU. Hard Times maps and a sentence or two support it as well.
If you disagree with it, then have fun iytu or else show a reference to the same events from later non-Gurps sources that overwrite it. Pre-MT sources don't count.
I can give references to show where my conclusions come from if necessary. Can you?
I used to be quite good at it, actually.
What makes you think the Hlaotiyoiho don't have any allies? Are the Yerlyaruiwo a powerful enough ally? ( similar viewpoints in almost every aspect except that the Hlaotiyoiho are too aggressive )
The Yerlyaruiwo have a huge number of vassal clans and allies as well.
Then again, the Hlyueawi made enemies of the Aokhaite and their allies as well. Viewpoint writings in Rats'n'Cats would seem to indicate that the Hlyueawi have few or no allies within the Heirate anymore.
So, Germany and England say " Go ahead. On our honor, we won't get involved or attack you from the rear. We don't like Turkey anyways. they're friend with the group that murdered our ambassador."
Austria says "Can we help? we don't like Turkey because they are allies with our enemies, the Imperium. Besides Turkey always argued that we shouldn't get more land."
Turkey stands alone ( his ally is too busy with a rebellion to do anything ). Poor Turkey.
You description of the 4000-Aslan game of Diplomacy is faulty.
The behaviour you would have them engage in would go against their honor code. The 29 would not extort riches or deceive or attack an enemy from behind. Any clan that would do so would make themselves outward enemies of all other clans on the grounds of their own honor system.
They would prefer to see the Hlaotiyoiho fight humans. That would end up weakening their rival without having to use their own resources or engage in dishonorable behaviour.
"Besides, let this upstart clan bear all the casualties...they are a bit unbalanced anyways. But we'll keep our word of honor and not stab them in the back like a barbarian thief."
Would an Aslan assault another Aslan who was fighting a duel with a third party? During a Duel of Honor? ( which is what the Hlaotiyoiho sees itself as fighting (and the Yerlyaruiwo probably sees the same thing ).
These ihatei fleets that people are so fixated on? Refugees from the Hlyueawi clan, perhaps, which the rest of the Heirate seems to see as barbarian.
your story makes no sense to me
and is less exciting plot-wise
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