The Alternate Timeline
- Thread starter Murph
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mad13142000
SOC-13
Like...What was the Empress Wave...great...
I know that longbow was that huge baseline telescope thingy...right? But nobody ever decides what the wave is? Is it all just some worthless McGuffin to kill the Imperium? AARRGGHHH...
Alt timeline looking better and better....
<sigh>
-MADDog
I know that longbow was that huge baseline telescope thingy...right? But nobody ever decides what the wave is? Is it all just some worthless McGuffin to kill the Imperium? AARRGGHHH...
Alt timeline looking better and better....
<sigh>
-MADDog
Actually, I think the late GDW people played Aftermath one time too many with with silly sh*t like the Empress Wave, etc.
As is stated in the other thread, the whole assination thing is just too implausible. Where was the security? How could whole fleets be suborned without IISS/ISA/IMJ/CIA/DIA/NSA/STP/etc. not knowing about the plot. BULLSH*T! Ok, rant over.
Longbow is fine, but the silly Empress Wave, Uber Virus, and other Imperium killers were way, way over the top for me.
Larsen's work is sheer brilliance, and makes the best of a really contrived and silly situation.
As is stated in the other thread, the whole assination thing is just too implausible. Where was the security? How could whole fleets be suborned without IISS/ISA/IMJ/CIA/DIA/NSA/STP/etc. not knowing about the plot. BULLSH*T! Ok, rant over.
Longbow is fine, but the silly Empress Wave, Uber Virus, and other Imperium killers were way, way over the top for me.
Larsen's work is sheer brilliance, and makes the best of a really contrived and silly situation.
Unless someone gives a better desc:
Psi Wave originating from near the Galactic Core (see Zho Core Expiditions) and causing massive disruption in its wake. It will arrive in the empire sometime... later (the new QLI 1248 stuff should be post EW I think).
Library data says Longbow was an original long distance comms system eventually shut down and replaced by Xboats. Strephon may have been alluding to a Longbow II or III and it may or may not have involved some uber tech or some uber psi method of long distance comms, but is a 'super secret' (as in so secret even after the empire is in chaos I can't say why I was off Capital at the key moment secret... that SECRET).
Don't know and I'm not sure the original explanation will ever be heard. Something (retcon or not, we won't know unless the TNE crew ever say) will have been said about it sometime by the new stuff for TNE's successor time period.
I suspect it was a transformative effect of some sort that would affect whole societies. Kill the Imperium? I think it depends what the Imperium is. It wouldn't (I think) kill the people, just change them somehow. So that might kill the Imperium as a current political entity.
To each his own. I'm interested to see what happens.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The Regency Sourcebook said that the Empress Wave was going to hit the Regency's borders in 1205.
Seeing as the Empress Wave was a TNE thing, it obviously didn't have any effect on the fall of the Imperium (as the Imperium was already gone). It did, however, directly contribute to the destruction of the Zhodani Consulate.
Seeing as the Empress Wave was a TNE thing, it obviously didn't have any effect on the fall of the Imperium (as the Imperium was already gone). It did, however, directly contribute to the destruction of the Zhodani Consulate.
Which is equally bizarre, since at lightspeed it would be more than half way through the Consulate and about to hit Zhdant at the time of the fifth frontier war, and the Zhodani would have been dealing with it for _thousands_ of years along the Core route. It's not going to be a surprise, and if it's enough to result in a collapse, it would have done so by the early 1100s.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Unless the wave itself doesn't cause the collapse, but the reaction to the wave does. Maybe it doesn't have a huge effect til it hits a person or group on one world, who start off a revolution/jihad type thing based on it that spreads across the Consulate?
mad13142000
SOC-13
Well, since the Consulate had outposts all the way to the core, why would the Imperium be aware of something that the Zho's weren't? It's more stupid TNE 'kill all civilization' stuff...Like the Zho's, with all their colonies, their magic crystal, their psi powers are just sitting around waiting for the end of the world to wash over them as a big surprise...puh-lease....
Library entry:
Empress Wave - Another hanging plot line that cries out for beign rewritten....
-MADDog
Library entry:
Empress Wave - Another hanging plot line that cries out for beign rewritten....
-MADDog
marginaleye
SOC-12
Uh... the words "Zhodani" and "cover-up" don't really go together very well. The Zhodani are notoriously, perhaps even compulsively, honest. Yes, there are Zhodani spies in the Imperium, but they're not "normal" -- they're like K'kree tank drivers (unusual, freakish individuals given jobs that "average" people would consider distasteful and/or psychologically stressful). The idea that the Zhodani could undertake a society-wide cover-up, in which a substantial fraction of the general populaton is involved, is just unbelievable.
One also has to remember the Consulate is a very big space. Even if one half was smoldering due to the Empress Wave. There would be no real understanding what is causing the phenomena.
Remember, it was not until the crisis of the virus that the Imperium started accepting the refugees. Until then, sure the Imperium was eager for a high level defection but real movement between the polities was limited by powers that wished the status quo remain. It is often projected that a Cold War exists between the Imperium & the Consulate. But, perhaps, like our own history of the 20th century proves, a better model would be rival imperialisms.
The Consulate, no doubt, thought it had the situation under control. But, the Empress Wave was way bigger and destructive. Clearly, the Wave is the representation of Chaos incarnate. Not neccessarily evil but chaotic, which explains why the Vargr haven't fallen prey it's destructive power.
People mention that couldn't the Zhodani see what was coming with their map reader & psionics. Remember, the map reader protrays things in real time and produces a lot of really weird images that only the Supreme Council has the authority to interpet. And, as far as psionics goes, remember the Wave is some sort of psionic phenomena. No doubt the source the wave is able to block signals from behind the crest...
Remember, it was not until the crisis of the virus that the Imperium started accepting the refugees. Until then, sure the Imperium was eager for a high level defection but real movement between the polities was limited by powers that wished the status quo remain. It is often projected that a Cold War exists between the Imperium & the Consulate. But, perhaps, like our own history of the 20th century proves, a better model would be rival imperialisms.
The Consulate, no doubt, thought it had the situation under control. But, the Empress Wave was way bigger and destructive. Clearly, the Wave is the representation of Chaos incarnate. Not neccessarily evil but chaotic, which explains why the Vargr haven't fallen prey it's destructive power.
People mention that couldn't the Zhodani see what was coming with their map reader & psionics. Remember, the map reader protrays things in real time and produces a lot of really weird images that only the Supreme Council has the authority to interpet. And, as far as psionics goes, remember the Wave is some sort of psionic phenomena. No doubt the source the wave is able to block signals from behind the crest...
mad13142000
SOC-13
Sorry...These are more of the wierdo justifications for Virus, only for the EW...If the forest is on fire, things come running out of it ahead of the flames - that would be enough news for those living on this side of the inferno to deduce something is wrong, and it's time to get out of Dodge...The EW is a mcguffin to get rid of the Consulate - just like Virus was the lame-o excuse to get rid of MT's neverending rebellion - neither has to make any lick of sense in a rational, real world. Don't get me wrong - I have TNE, and use TNE rules, and will probably plunk down hard earned $$$ for Martin's book, but I will always think the TNE plot line was absurd and un-defendable by anyone claiming to have ANY desire for realism in the Sci-Fi RPG setting - If you like 'Crossing Over', then the Virus probably makes alot of sense, but not to me...And not the EW either...
I'll play Trav till my old, dying days in the Alt. Timeline... If G:T wants to do a rebellion, fine - I have no problem with the start of MT's plotline...But when you take a physical lifeform, and beam it all around ala StarTrek, and handwave off a mysterious anti-psi killer wave from the glactic core that doesn't effect anyone other than the 3rd Imperium's worst enemy... then I'll have to pass on...I don't have teleporters, nanotech, disintegrators, cybertech, or any other wierdo hightech plot device that alot of sci-fi posits as being in the far future, why should I have OTHER things that violate the purity of the science fiction setting????
I know it's canon, and I'm thin ice here, but I just can't handle alot of TNE's plot....
-MADDog
I'll play Trav till my old, dying days in the Alt. Timeline... If G:T wants to do a rebellion, fine - I have no problem with the start of MT's plotline...But when you take a physical lifeform, and beam it all around ala StarTrek, and handwave off a mysterious anti-psi killer wave from the glactic core that doesn't effect anyone other than the 3rd Imperium's worst enemy... then I'll have to pass on...I don't have teleporters, nanotech, disintegrators, cybertech, or any other wierdo hightech plot device that alot of sci-fi posits as being in the far future, why should I have OTHER things that violate the purity of the science fiction setting????
I know it's canon, and I'm thin ice here, but I just can't handle alot of TNE's plot....
-MADDog
Here's an odd question:
How do you escape the EW?
Supposition:
It is expanding at speed of light (cee).
We percieve things when they arrive at the speed of light (unless they emit something like neutrinos). So until it arrives, you can't see it coming. And yes, you can outjump SoL, but it is too late then. It hits, you might not be in any state to think about Jumping. Anything that tries to Jump behind it for a look around might not come back.
So yes, someone might find out about it, but it might take a long time. And even then, that won't tell anyone anything about it, and no one will be escaping it.
Shoot holes in my logic, please.
How do you escape the EW?
Supposition:
It is expanding at speed of light (cee).
We percieve things when they arrive at the speed of light (unless they emit something like neutrinos). So until it arrives, you can't see it coming. And yes, you can outjump SoL, but it is too late then. It hits, you might not be in any state to think about Jumping. Anything that tries to Jump behind it for a look around might not come back.
So yes, someone might find out about it, but it might take a long time. And even then, that won't tell anyone anything about it, and no one will be escaping it.
Shoot holes in my logic, please.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Interesting point there.
But there is, I think, a warning - the psi message that Strephon got from Longbow. That's got to be running ahead of the actual EW. So people are hit by that (several decades before the EW arrives, it seems), and might gain some awareness that something big is coming. SO the people who come flooding to rimward ahead of the wave are those who got the psi message and decided to run and warn everyone else. (?)
But there is, I think, a warning - the psi message that Strephon got from Longbow. That's got to be running ahead of the actual EW. So people are hit by that (several decades before the EW arrives, it seems), and might gain some awareness that something big is coming. SO the people who come flooding to rimward ahead of the wave are those who got the psi message and decided to run and warn everyone else. (?)
A thing to remember about the EW: the it's been washing over the Core route for the last 10,000 years or so. With existing canon, the Zhodani must have known about it since before the founding of the third Imperium.
In order to 'fix' the Empress Wave, you pretty much have two choices: either it doesn't come from the Core, or it doesn't move at the speed of light. As a variant on 'it doesn't come from the Core', it could come from the Core but have only recently become dangerous for some obscure reason.
In order to 'fix' the Empress Wave, you pretty much have two choices: either it doesn't come from the Core, or it doesn't move at the speed of light. As a variant on 'it doesn't come from the Core', it could come from the Core but have only recently become dangerous for some obscure reason.
daryen
SOC-14 1K
The Zhodani don't lie? Sure hey don't ... And who told you such a thing? Oh, that's right ... the Zhodani told you that.
Strip back all of the nice fuzzy pro-Zho propaganda, and you have two co-resident populations. The major population is a set of non-psions who are conditioned to accept their situation, regardless of what it is. If you aren't happy, you are "sick" and in need of "treatment". The minor population is a set of psions who can freely keep secrets.
So, if a prole hears about some "horror" rolling across the Consulate, what are the psions going to do? Admit the problem and let their society unravel? Or would they lie and hope they can solve it? I am sure you can figure out the answer.
And maybe the EW itself doesn't rip the Zhodani Consulate apart. Maybe it, in and of itself, is actually reasonably minor, but it causes some other effect which then unravels the Consulate.
To work reasonably well, the EW needs a good explanation. But it is much easier to make the EW to work, than it is to explain the ridiculous assassination, the impossible Aslan "invasion", the unimaginably effective Vargr corsairs, and the "magic" of Virus.
Strip back all of the nice fuzzy pro-Zho propaganda, and you have two co-resident populations. The major population is a set of non-psions who are conditioned to accept their situation, regardless of what it is. If you aren't happy, you are "sick" and in need of "treatment". The minor population is a set of psions who can freely keep secrets.
So, if a prole hears about some "horror" rolling across the Consulate, what are the psions going to do? Admit the problem and let their society unravel? Or would they lie and hope they can solve it? I am sure you can figure out the answer.
And maybe the EW itself doesn't rip the Zhodani Consulate apart. Maybe it, in and of itself, is actually reasonably minor, but it causes some other effect which then unravels the Consulate.
To work reasonably well, the EW needs a good explanation. But it is much easier to make the EW to work, than it is to explain the ridiculous assassination, the impossible Aslan "invasion", the unimaginably effective Vargr corsairs, and the "magic" of Virus.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
Whatever the explanation MJD comes up with for the Empress Wave in TNE:1248, I get the feeling from this discussion that it had better be a damn good one if it's going to satisfy anyone. 
No problem.
Same way news about Tarnis' EMP spread (you know, that Darrian-crushing event). Ships jumping to a system that's already been affected and the wave passed, well, they have problems, right? The ship doesn't, right?
So the ship sees this devestated world, and the captain says "Hmmm, I wonder if something bad happened here? Maybe I should spread the news? Maybe this has happened some where else, and we can predict where it is and where it's going?"
Yeah, no problem there. And hey, they can even beam down and talk to the people on the planet (if there are any left willing/able to talk) or do some scans... I think you get the point.
Oh, and what if the wave has depth? Like, it's not just a thin veil, but a crescendo that is several lightyears thick? Then I suppose there's going to be a slowly encroaching area of space wherein ships jump TO, but never return.
Not hard to figure out at all.
And now, to read the rest of this post. (Wish me luck!)
Assume for a moment it isn't as much a wave as a zone. If you jump behind it, you don't get out. If you let it pass you (and moving at cee, the first warning you get is when it does), you're cooked too. So the *only* possible warning is some faster-than-light-psi-dream-thing and I don't think everyone was issued one of them. Thus, a lot of people won't know, and the Zhos might have provoked the darn thing with their core expeditions... and not even know their empire is collapsing.... (depends if they can contact the core guys FTL and if those guys go out of touch, what assumptions the guys back home make).
Beating event horizons is always a challenge... if they propagate at speed of light.
