The Army IYTU

[jatay3]

I tend to use the canon with a variant of the tripod scheme spoken of in "Ground Forces"

Planatary, mercs, and etceteras-directly serves a sub-organization and indirectly serves the Emperor

Army directly serves the Emperor through the sector dukes. pledged to Emperors service.

Marines-directly serves Emperor as strike force, and central reserve

also-Imperial Guard, directly serves Imperial family, as opposed to Emperor as Chief of government and head of state of the Imperium

 

[jatay3]

Planatary, mercs, and etceteras-directly serves a sub-organization and indirectly serves the Emperor
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that is the etceteras don't take an oath to fight for the Emperor-they simply serve the Emperor because their employers commanded them to, because the Emperor in turn commanded their employers.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
T4 was pretty explicit in explaining the Imperial standardisation of equipment - see the Central Supply Catalogue supplement.

Ah but IMTU the equipment is fairly standard, and not just for Military equipment. The intention appears to be that an auto pistol is an autopistol, is an autopistol, no matter the manufacturer, or the planet you are purchasing it on, or the planet of manufacture, or the planet you purchase the ammunition on, or even the planet the ammunition was manufactured on. While there may be several variations of Scout Ships, they all use common parts. A Jump Drive, Fusion Plant or Maneuver Drive that is purchased one place can be maintained, repaired or replaced somewhere else, provided TL is sufficient.

So in that case, Armies of the same Tech Level will be equipped approximately the same and have interchangeable ammunition, and parts. The differences will be more organization than beans and bullets. (SOme planets might raise Lift Troops, while another might prefer Ground transport because it is less suceptible to things like high winds, while a third, because of the environment (Asteroid Belt for example) might be strictly a light force.

While a nice Grav Vehicle Force with Astrin APC and Intrepedia Tanks makes for pretty pictures they are not useful on all the planets in the Imperium. (I can't see Intrepedia Tanks racing down the hallways/passageways of one of the Arcologies of Glisten.

)

 

[jatay3]

The Imperial ground forces are rather generically equipped for fighting on a Terra like world, which is reasonable as all the major races prefer the same types of world to live in. The Imperial style can be adapted to a mars fairly well like world for instance(the only difference is atmosphere; a big difference for logistics but not for tactics). It can also adapt reasonably to a lot of other environments.
Nevertheless it is true that grav tanks are useless in some places.

 

[jatay3]

By the way, someone should think of some weaknesses in the Imperial Armed Forces by way of balance.

 

[far-trader]

Something like the incredibly long and overly complicated chain of command mixing soldiers, officers, and nobility. Exacerbated by the fact they have to wait for the IN to give them a ride to wherever it is they are needed.

Not hard to see why local minor nobility will raise it's own colonial army and/or hire independants (aka mercenaries) when a force solution is needed.

Still the Imperial Army is there, and a valuable source for competantly trained troops to recruit for colonial and mercenary forces.

"Join the Imperial Army and see the Empire they said. Sure they trained us and then we waited. And waited. I think we were called for action twice in my twenty years and both times before we could get there, courtesy some of the worst ships the IN has, the war was over thanks to mercs the first time and locals trained up by mercs the second time. Look kid, if you want action pull your four then muster, there's lots of merc outfits will snap you up and you'll be in the thick of it more than you want. Oh, as for seeing the Empire, all I saw of it in my twenty years was this base and the inside of a couple of transports."

Major Frank, Lee - Retired IIAF

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Jatay3:
Which is why their main base wouldn't be the same as the place they get their recruits from. And they don't support a distant, impersonal emperor-they support "the regiment"-and in so doing indirectly support the distant, impersonal emperor

IMTU, IMTU, IMTU; I never said it was perfect. If it was there would never be any fun!

Originally posted by Jatay3:
Marines are more likly to use purpose built fast transports.
Army just needs to get their in a reasonable ammount of time.
Marines have lots of firepower but little tail-they are their to establish the position; the army is their to operate after a starport has been secured(or built?).

IMTU, the IN/IM are the enforcers of Imperial edicts and in this role they are reasonably effective. But the IN can only lift and support a few divisions of Marines away from their primary bases. To resolve logistics and force limit problems, the IA prepositions equipment and activates IA units to a deploy in support of the Marines. This may be not be perfect, but IMTU it makes sense.

Again, my point is that the IA must be able to mobilize in order to be worth keeping; otherwise, they are not worth keeping around as an organized force for the few actions they are needed. To be mobile, the must be light. Even today, the U.S. Army does not deploy its troops with their vehicles; they mate them up at a staging point. The troops themselves are deployed with only their personal weapons and equipment, everything else gets issued from stores.

 

[jatay3]

IMTU, IMTU, IMTU; I never said it was perfect. If it was there would never be any fun!
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well said

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by jatay3:
The Imperial ground forces are rather generically equipped for fighting on a Terra like world, which is reasonable as all the major races prefer the same types of world to live in. The Imperial style can be adapted to a mars fairly well like world for instance(the only difference is atmosphere; a big difference for logistics but not for tactics). It can also adapt reasonably to a lot of other environments.
Nevertheless it is true that grav tanks are useless in some places.

That only makes a little sense. Think about this, why would Glisten raise an army that isn't equipped for system defense? Further where would a Glisten raised Army unit train to use these weapons and tactics for use on a Terran like world? Besides most worlds in the Imperium are not Terran like. (Probably less than half.) The Primary purpose of a locally raised force has to be for local defense. So either throw out the locally raised concept and make them the same as the Marines (An Imperial Force that isn't tied to one place and therefore will need something else to distinguish it from the Marines.) Or have them locally raised, trained and equipped, which would give them some serious diversity.

Remember you have to train as you would fight, because you will fight as you train.

 

[jatay3]

he Primary purpose of a locally raised force has to be for local defense. So either throw out the locally raised concept and make them the same as the Marines (An Imperial Force that
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No they are raised locally because they have to be raised somewhere.
By locally raised I simply meant that the troops from the same regiment would tend to be from the same planet, not that they are raised with the idea that they will serve on that planet. Just as a regiment of highlanders can serve on the indian northwest frontier, are raised in scotland. Imperial Army regiments are eached raised on a specific planet and that is recognized in their name and customs. But they are intended to be available to serve on as many different worlds as possible.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Originally posted by jatay3:
he Primary purpose of a locally raised force has to be for local defense. So either throw out the locally raised concept and make them the same as the Marines (An Imperial Force that
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No they are raised locally because they have to be raised somewhere.
By locally raised I simply meant that the troops from the same regiment would tend to be from the same planet, not that they are raised with the idea that they will serve on that planet. Just as a regiment of highlanders can serve on the indian northwest frontier, are raised in scotland. Imperial Army regiments are eached raised on a specific planet and that is recognized in their name and customs. But they are intended to be available to serve on as many different worlds as possible.

So how is that different from the Imperial Marines? And why would a planet, especially the lower population ones, raise an Army other than a Self Defense Force that isn't going to be capable of defending its home turf? Especially since they also have to obviously raise a self defense force?

The Imperial Army will get the people the locals didn't want and the Marines didn't get to first. I'll bet the recruitment figures are horrible and the troop quality absolutely bites.

 

[Piper]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The Imperial Army will get the people the locals didn't want and the Marines didn't get to first. I'll bet the recruitment figures are horrible and the troop quality absolutely bites.

Except that, at least some versions of Traveller have a draft. The quality of recruits should be fairly level across the services.
Reenlistment rates are another matter.

GT: Ground Forces has an interesting take on the Imperial Army. The command structure extends all the way back to Core, but, by and large, armies are raised at the subsector level and structured to fill the needs of the subsector as a whole.

Each world has a defense force and also contributes to the Subsector Unified Army. This contribution is in the form of "battalion equivalents" which are modified by such factors as tech level and environment. Battalion Equivalents are then used to form larger units such as divisions and corps.

The Unified Army is then available to the entire subsector (or ultimately to the Sector or Imperial High Command) to be used as needed.

As an example, the Unified Army of Glisten consists of 5 corps of lift infantry, 2 of which are assigned to District 268 (which has no unified army of its own).

GT:GF does a good job of expanding on the "battalions per planet" scheme laid out in an early JTAS (and probably derived from FFW) and is certainly worth a look for anyone considering large-scale military campaigns.

 

[mike wightman]

IMTU I stick to how it's done in LBB1.

A quick comparison of the skill sets for CT Army and Marine characters:

Army: Gambling, Brawling, Vehicle, Air/raft, Gun Combat, Forward Observer, Blade Combat, Mechanical, Electronic, Tactics; advanced EDU only medical, computer, admin, leader.

Marine: Gambling, Brawling, Blade Combat, Vehicle, Vacc Suit, Gun Combat, Mechanical, Electronic, Tactics; advanced EDU only medical, computer, admin, leader.

Note that in CT vehicle skill includes grav belt but no ther grav craft.

So Marines can get Vacc Suit and grav belt skills, while the Army can operate G carriers and speeders along with air/rafts.

The Army can't operate in combat armour or battle dress because they lack these skills, while Marines don't operate their own vehicles and instead rely on grav belt and combat armour/battle dress.

Note also that Marines will have to take along a naval liaison to coordinate heavy weapon support from ships - forward observer - or rely on liaison with Army personnel.

This, IMHO, fits with the CT definitions of:

Marines: Members of the armed forces carried aboard starships. Marines deal with piracy and boarding actions in space, defend the starports and bases belonging to the navy, and supplement other ground forces such as the army.

Army: Members of the planetary armed fighting forces. Soldiers deal with planetary surface actions, battles, and campaigns. Such individuals may also be mercenaries for hire.

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Bhoins:
The Imperial Army will get the people the locals didn't want and the Marines didn't get to first. I'll bet the recruitment figures are horrible and the troop quality absolutely bites.

And then there's the Imperial penal battalions IMTU; sorta the dirty dozen on roids. Equipped with the bare minimal equipment, they're promised amnesty if they survive conscription.

IMTU's Mercenary War, the IM/IA used the penal battalions to soften up the mercs before committing front line troopers. Any convicts that switched sides were eliminated with the mercs in the end; a win-win situation from the Empire's standpoint.

 

[jatay3]

So how is that different from the Imperial Marines? A
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the marines IMTU are not recruited planet by planet. They are recruited as marines.
The army maintains morale by using regional patriotism, the marines by displaying their historical record and stressing the high standards required. Marines are meant to have a loyalty that goes beyond regionalism. In fact it is more unit pride than "Civis Imperius Sum"*, though that is their as well. But it is not regional-they are meant to be the force that has no regional loyalties: the homeless legions keeping their lonely watch. Thus their are more marine families than army families-generations that have known no life but the marines and no companions but other marine brats. Their home is the regiment, not any planet. Their is of course an inflow of recruits from the provincials, but the marines as a whole are meant to have a non-provencial air. Some of the "inflows" come because they want to see the universe, or they have something to get away from on their home planet. Thus marines are rather more hardbitten than soldiers. marines are comparable to some spacers who have no life but as spacers and have a wife in every port. Soldiers are comparable to spacers on a small trader that always returns to the same home port every year.
Thus the Seventh Mora Fusilers is recruited from Morans.
The Seventh Lanth Marines were recruited wherever and given the title "Lanth" in recognition of their deeds during the Lanth campaign.


*"I am a citizen of the Imperium"

 

[hurrahbro]

The way I see it in my Imperium is this way.

The Army is mainly the force of the planetary government(s). However as a member state of the Imperium it has a feudal obligation to provide a force for the Emperor, its size depends on many things but usualy varies between a Regiment to a full Corp (for very rich or very high population worlds). The average would be a Division, which is always divided into 3 parts,

In the 'division' obligation it would break down thus

1 Mixed FIELD Brigade, The Emperor can do what he likes, when he likes with this unit within the confines of the obligation. Usualy it is used as garrison, or kept as some central point with other units for dispatch at time of crisis

1 DEPOT Brigade, this stays at home, the Emperor can only call on it in time of war. Otherwise its to provide a reliable backbone to local forces and train the new recruits.

1 RESERVIST Brigade, These are former soldiers paid a retainer and can be called up in time of war, If war is on, they replace the Depot and be responsible for training new influx and replacements.

An Field Arillery Brigade, a Heavy Artillery Brigade and a Cavalry/Amour Brigade would provide the balance, each would be made up of Feild, Depot and reservist battalions at least!

During wartime there is a 'March' unit, these are mixed battalions of trained replacements en-route to the units in the field.

The Imperium demand a standardisation of ordinance, command structure and training levels and maintain this via the Army Directorate. The Directorate also deal with the allocation of high tech equipment to lower tech worlds to bring them up to a certain level (In the classic TL15 Imperium, this would be TL12).

Seperate from the directorate is the Imperial Army Command that provides all high level commanders and directly employs all lift and logistial/supply arms (Normaly part of the Merchant Marine Reservists).

The Marines are a high tech light infantry or landing troops, the 'Army' provides heavier ground based elements and is predominantly maintained at a minimum of tech Level 12.

 

[jatay3]

And why would a planet, especially the lower population ones, raise an Army other than a Self Defense Force that isn't going to be capable of defending its home turf? Especially since they also have to obviously raise a self defense force?
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they are raised by the Imperium-they are simply raised from troops from that planet

 

[mike wightman]

Should there even be an Imperial Army?

Just a thought

Perhaps the Nobles have to provide household troops or hire mercenary units if ground combat is required.

 

[Ran Targas]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Perhaps the Nobles have to provide household troops or hire mercenary units if ground combat is required.

And that's why the Mercenary War IMTU happened in the first place.

The IM lost too many peacekeepers and advisors to skirmishes against hired guns on independently minded colonies or in brush wars with mercenaries hoping to carve out their own little kingdoms (i.e. Dogs of War). House troops and mercenary units above company size were abolished by Imperial edict; their ships and equipment commandeered by the crown, their troops forced to disband or face prison under trumped up charges of sedition. Those that resisted met the full brunt of a combined IN/IM assault group complete with orbital fire support and escorts.

Security for the nobility was made a function of the IA. As an added benefit to the crown, this allowed the Emperor to place his own agents in every palace, estate, and capitol building in the Imperium. Eventually it provided the perfect means to remove troublesome competition without expending much effort.

 

[mike wightman]

Neat, very neat.

I like it.