Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Well, I'm number 20 (I think)!
But, I'd take 'em in any format that includes what we've always wanted Traveller to be: even better than CT!
But, I'd take 'em in any format that includes what we've always wanted Traveller to be: even better than CT!
Sifu Blackirish
SOC-14 1K
Due to excessive poverty, I have been just hanging around the fringes of gaming, buying most of my non-TRAVELLER stuff secind hand.
I still have a lot of my old LBBs from 1980 or so. Lost my first edition stuff along the way, but still have a bunch of those cherished items.
I asked on another thread some time ago, but can I still be a member? Might as well make it official...
I still have a lot of my old LBBs from 1980 or so. Lost my first edition stuff along the way, but still have a bunch of those cherished items.
I asked on another thread some time ago, but can I still be a member? Might as well make it official...
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
I am also in interestied in being in, but I am also interested in the future of Traveller in general. The vagueness of the creators and status of various projects is very frustrating to me. TO the point where I worry of a new "Long Night".
Obviously, there is material to produce! I was looking at the Illustrated Bibliography the other night, and was blown away by how many peopl have worked on various aspects of the game from many companies. And the sheer magnitude and number of products is nothing to sneeze at.
If there is to be a future for this game, it must adapt and grow with the market, and be marketed competitively. Production value should be maximized and balanced with production costs.
It should also be marketed in Europe, especially eastern and Japan, aggressively. Marketed everywhere aggressively. More than just on some table at a convention or two.
For my two creds, screw the binders (which is a bad marketing plan, tho they are nice!) and go back to producing LBBs but not make them so little. Same half size size but 3 or four times thicker. Chocked with material as concrete as is required. If a game requires that the actual rules be ammended by physically adding pages, there is a problem with cohesion.
I am willing to work on it, but I need to lose the "tilting at windmills" feeling. The creators of this game (regardless of reason) are extremely distant and secretive at times as to the overall plan, to the game's detriment.
For example, I am ready willing and able to do products that could (by the yardstick of past products) bear "Approved for Use With Traveller" easily, yet there has been no response to any requests for information besides the usual Limited Liscence rigamarole, all of which is speculation until the horse himself speaks.
Obviously, there is material to produce! I was looking at the Illustrated Bibliography the other night, and was blown away by how many peopl have worked on various aspects of the game from many companies. And the sheer magnitude and number of products is nothing to sneeze at.
If there is to be a future for this game, it must adapt and grow with the market, and be marketed competitively. Production value should be maximized and balanced with production costs.
It should also be marketed in Europe, especially eastern and Japan, aggressively. Marketed everywhere aggressively. More than just on some table at a convention or two.
For my two creds, screw the binders (which is a bad marketing plan, tho they are nice!) and go back to producing LBBs but not make them so little. Same half size size but 3 or four times thicker. Chocked with material as concrete as is required. If a game requires that the actual rules be ammended by physically adding pages, there is a problem with cohesion.
I am willing to work on it, but I need to lose the "tilting at windmills" feeling. The creators of this game (regardless of reason) are extremely distant and secretive at times as to the overall plan, to the game's detriment.
For example, I am ready willing and able to do products that could (by the yardstick of past products) bear "Approved for Use With Traveller" easily, yet there has been no response to any requests for information besides the usual Limited Liscence rigamarole, all of which is speculation until the horse himself speaks.
T
TempMal
Guest
Well, looks like I (in a previous incarnation) was totally wrong about something at least: last time I was able to check the latter is exactly what MWM was doing.
Is T5 even still being developed? Is it still as outdated, overcomplex, and anachronistic as it was when its supposed "playtest" started?
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Revisiting, this puppy needs some TLC!
1. The task system is what will NOT sell this game. Ten pages of how to resolve mediocre tasks that can be expressed as "n +/-DMs" is an appeal that I do not understand. Who is this for? How did this take the place of "Roll, Please."? Seems very overcomplicated with no solid reason behind it. Seems overly dorky. Inaccessable.
2. Flux. Arg. Totally superfluous. Stop now! Throw it away...
3. Life Pursuits. Too big a deal about something not made a big deal of normally once your character is done. Again, Simplify!
The Good Stuff:
1. More Aliens. This is good. Traveller is too Humanocentric, which is why the Imperium seems "small" to people, and they yearn for shaky Rebellions and Collapses. Humaniti should remain primary. No one minor race force shuld be able to debalance the game. Genreration system is a real mess. Hard to follow.
Overall, I would make the observation that there is more rules changes/epic system stuff than meat. I want to know what the meat is going to be. The Background. Is it another Setting?
The Bad thing about Traveller as it changes so much from incarnation to incarnation. This seems far removed from Traveller as a game, and more home to Traveller as a Tax Return Form.
I would prefer combing out bumps old traveller than making a whole new one that no one will "get" but us. And by "get" I don't mean buy. I mean understand.
1. The task system is what will NOT sell this game. Ten pages of how to resolve mediocre tasks that can be expressed as "n +/-DMs" is an appeal that I do not understand. Who is this for? How did this take the place of "Roll, Please."? Seems very overcomplicated with no solid reason behind it. Seems overly dorky. Inaccessable.
2. Flux. Arg. Totally superfluous. Stop now! Throw it away...
3. Life Pursuits. Too big a deal about something not made a big deal of normally once your character is done. Again, Simplify!
The Good Stuff:
1. More Aliens. This is good. Traveller is too Humanocentric, which is why the Imperium seems "small" to people, and they yearn for shaky Rebellions and Collapses. Humaniti should remain primary. No one minor race force shuld be able to debalance the game. Genreration system is a real mess. Hard to follow.
Overall, I would make the observation that there is more rules changes/epic system stuff than meat. I want to know what the meat is going to be. The Background. Is it another Setting?
The Bad thing about Traveller as it changes so much from incarnation to incarnation. This seems far removed from Traveller as a game, and more home to Traveller as a Tax Return Form.
I would prefer combing out bumps old traveller than making a whole new one that no one will "get" but us. And by "get" I don't mean buy. I mean understand.
T
TempMal
Guest
I think the problem is that really MWM hasn't twigged that people don't really want new task systems or game mechanics - they want new settings.
Existing Traveller fans aren't going to drop everything they've been playing with for T5 just because it's got a new system (least of all one so complex and detail-obsessive that it would make a grown accountant cry) - they're happy with whatever kludge of various other systems they've put together over the years.
When last I looked, MWM seemed to display no interest whatsoever in producing a game that (a) actually fit into the current market and (b) was even remotely attractive to most Traveller fans. A lot of solid Traveller fans left the T5 playtest because of Marc's total lack of interest in anybody else's ideas about the direction and focus of the game - as far as he is concerned playtesters were there to test what he threw at us and that was it. That's NOT how playtesting works generally - it's usually a two-way process of give and take between authors and playtesters. Until he realises that (if he hasn't already) then the T5 playtest is a total failure as a development exercise.
Until Marc either wakes up to the fact that he's driving off the very people who would otherwise have been very interested in a T5 with both his attitude and the content of the files he's produced, or until he comes out of whatever log cabin he's been living in for the past 25 years and takes a good hard look at the current RPG market and what it would take to seriously break into it again, T5 will be doomed to failure.
Personally, I thought that GT and T20 were damn good cracks at bringing Traveller into the modern market. The current vision of T5 is exactly the WRONG way to go about it if it is to be taken remotely seriously.
I'd like to think things have changed on the T5 playtest board from the sad situation they were in when I last looked at it a few months after it went up - maybe they have, I dunno. What's it like over there at the moment?
Existing Traveller fans aren't going to drop everything they've been playing with for T5 just because it's got a new system (least of all one so complex and detail-obsessive that it would make a grown accountant cry) - they're happy with whatever kludge of various other systems they've put together over the years.
When last I looked, MWM seemed to display no interest whatsoever in producing a game that (a) actually fit into the current market and (b) was even remotely attractive to most Traveller fans. A lot of solid Traveller fans left the T5 playtest because of Marc's total lack of interest in anybody else's ideas about the direction and focus of the game - as far as he is concerned playtesters were there to test what he threw at us and that was it. That's NOT how playtesting works generally - it's usually a two-way process of give and take between authors and playtesters. Until he realises that (if he hasn't already) then the T5 playtest is a total failure as a development exercise.
Until Marc either wakes up to the fact that he's driving off the very people who would otherwise have been very interested in a T5 with both his attitude and the content of the files he's produced, or until he comes out of whatever log cabin he's been living in for the past 25 years and takes a good hard look at the current RPG market and what it would take to seriously break into it again, T5 will be doomed to failure.
Personally, I thought that GT and T20 were damn good cracks at bringing Traveller into the modern market. The current vision of T5 is exactly the WRONG way to go about it if it is to be taken remotely seriously.
I'd like to think things have changed on the T5 playtest board from the sad situation they were in when I last looked at it a few months after it went up - maybe they have, I dunno. What's it like over there at the moment?
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Sparse. Most recent posts are around now with a big gap from Spring on, I think. Most of what is seen seems to be speculation or vague hearsay.
You are exactly right in that observation re the direction of things. I do not know what could salvage what rules I have seen to return them to practicality and servicability. I look at that and the modern gamer and see a future that does not involve Traveller 5 as it is. This version seems bent to remove the fun in favor of statistics.
GT and T20 were (are?) both good forays, but we are on the edge of a changing market.
Don't get me wrong, I would not like to see Traveller "dumbed down" to the point of it being Pokemon or Magic: The Cash Gathering, but there must be some comprimise between the lust for ⌧ographically detailed rules systems and a game that people that are not Steven Hawking can play.
From what I see, everything neccessary is right here, and people already do it. This game needs to return to its roots, get a facelift, and somehow sort out the tangle of settings.
You are exactly right in that observation re the direction of things. I do not know what could salvage what rules I have seen to return them to practicality and servicability. I look at that and the modern gamer and see a future that does not involve Traveller 5 as it is. This version seems bent to remove the fun in favor of statistics.
GT and T20 were (are?) both good forays, but we are on the edge of a changing market.
Don't get me wrong, I would not like to see Traveller "dumbed down" to the point of it being Pokemon or Magic: The Cash Gathering, but there must be some comprimise between the lust for ⌧ographically detailed rules systems and a game that people that are not Steven Hawking can play.
From what I see, everything neccessary is right here, and people already do it. This game needs to return to its roots, get a facelift, and somehow sort out the tangle of settings.
P
Pickles
Guest
None of which changes the fact that, after some initial confusion, I think I'm Number 12.
Oh, yes, and I have to agree that settings are more important than rules to most gamers in my experience. Literally everyone I have played with in 24 years has tinkered with the rules from day one. But when it comes to settings and adventures, something from official or unofficial sources inevitably makes its appearance. Settings require imagination, while rules basically boil down to methematics (IMO).
This doesn't even mean that Traveller has to lose the OTU - there's lots of room for detailing places and adventures, which would surely be welcome.
Oh, yes, and I have to agree that settings are more important than rules to most gamers in my experience. Literally everyone I have played with in 24 years has tinkered with the rules from day one. But when it comes to settings and adventures, something from official or unofficial sources inevitably makes its appearance. Settings require imagination, while rules basically boil down to methematics (IMO).
This doesn't even mean that Traveller has to lose the OTU - there's lots of room for detailing places and adventures, which would surely be welcome.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Well, (though I am loathe to continue the thread hijack) if you check out the Playtest forum, you will see that there has been some continued motion toward a workable T5. Not everyone will agree with the direction it is going, but that's going to be the case, no matter what.
I continue to put in my Cr.02 and (though I am limited in time right now) looking at what MWM is putting together. (He is listening to the playtesters, BTW.)
Back OT, I just think something like the LBBs would stand out, and would spark some nostalgia as well. But, then again, I'm a conservative - I only want change if it means something very good.
I continue to put in my Cr.02 and (though I am limited in time right now) looking at what MWM is putting together. (He is listening to the playtesters, BTW.)
Back OT, I just think something like the LBBs would stand out, and would spark some nostalgia as well. But, then again, I'm a conservative - I only want change if it means something very good.
daltoncalford
SOC-12
I firmly believe in the viability of the LBB concept.
Rules in one set, Setting in another. Short, concise, sweet and easy to handle.
Setting in other lbb books, so that if you want to use one rule set or another, you can without the setting being mish-mashed with rules you do not use.
Sold in a box set like the origional boxed traveller set.
Just my opinion.
Best regards
Dalton
Rules in one set, Setting in another. Short, concise, sweet and easy to handle.
Setting in other lbb books, so that if you want to use one rule set or another, you can without the setting being mish-mashed with rules you do not use.
Sold in a box set like the origional boxed traveller set.
Just my opinion.
Best regards
Dalton
P
Pickles
Guest
However, to avoid confusion, maybe they ought to be a different colour - blue, or brown, or burgundy, or any other colour beginning with 'B' ...
daltoncalford
SOC-12
Anything but beige, that is the colour of some of my booklet format, original D&D materials. (I have a copy of the first publication that had mind flayers in it, back from the late 70's)
best regards
Dalton
best regards
Dalton
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
If I may offer my opinion, if the intention is to not confuse them with the LBB (Little Black Books) but keep the same size format, I'd suggest anything BUT a color beginning with "B". Know what I mean? If I say LBB you should know it means "Little Black Book" and not "Little Brown Book".
So I'd suggest and vote for Red, being the "classic" Traveller accent color, and thus you'd have the new rules being the "Little Red Books" or LRB.
So I'd suggest and vote for Red, being the "classic" Traveller accent color, and thus you'd have the new rules being the "Little Red Books" or LRB.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
I vote for Brown - nice Firefly connection there.....
T5 is still being developed.
It don't think it has fundamentally changed its character. So, you'll probably still find it anachronistic and complicated.
The Playtest forum is a misnomer, and it isn't. It is a misnomer, in that "here is the whole thing, try it all out so you can see it in context" hasn't happened. It isn't a misnomer, in that "here's a subsystem to critique" has happened.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Believe me, I am all for exploring new avenues of character generation, but this makes FASA Star Trek's look like a game of Old Maid. I enjoy and play all kinds of Traveller, and I can see where stuff seems a little foregone at times with perhaps a more objective eye.
There is an element (and I am in this too) that enjoys complicated processes in the creation of characters, the more detail the better, but too long and too complicated is what makes a game a shelf dust collector. CT had it right with rolling up a guy in 5 minutes.
I just think a lot of these expansions and elaborations on basic, easy to quantify things, are best left to be optional "rules modules" that get stuck to the "skeleton" of Traveller as individuals see fit.
If for example, ten pages are needed to figure out if your character is able to climb a rope, then something is wrong. The priority is wrong. More focus is on the dice than the actual event.
I am having difficulty understanding how this (or any really) task system is somehow better than 7+/- DMs.
Also, If I worte a ten page task system setup, I would also push for its use. Pride in work needs to be tempered with practicality in this case.
There is an element (and I am in this too) that enjoys complicated processes in the creation of characters, the more detail the better, but too long and too complicated is what makes a game a shelf dust collector. CT had it right with rolling up a guy in 5 minutes.
I just think a lot of these expansions and elaborations on basic, easy to quantify things, are best left to be optional "rules modules" that get stuck to the "skeleton" of Traveller as individuals see fit.
If for example, ten pages are needed to figure out if your character is able to climb a rope, then something is wrong. The priority is wrong. More focus is on the dice than the actual event.
I am having difficulty understanding how this (or any really) task system is somehow better than 7+/- DMs.
Also, If I worte a ten page task system setup, I would also push for its use. Pride in work needs to be tempered with practicality in this case.
