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The Compleat Battleship

Kind of like how the Bismarck took out the Hood. In a fleet engagement one would expect loses, the gatling spinal sounds wicked though.

Cruisers are already powerful, any trying to balance it back towards them with heavier meson screens, puts us right back where we were. Changes should be playtested, the multi-spinal armament is still only a theory.
 
Making battleships more lethal isn't going to align the game rules more closely with the canonical setting. For that, you need to make them better able to survive.


Hans
 
Having skimmed my way through most of the debate, it strikes me that the assumed tech for all this discussion is TL15.

I'll put forward a theory that the 'problem' only occurs at TL14/15 and the Imperium holds a TL advantage over all its neighbors, making a BB based navy more viable (although perhaps not optimal).

I'm also of the thought that Cruisers and BB's can be any size, the difference is in their mission profile. If your Cruiser is armed and armoured like a BB and lacks integral support (troops, fighters, etc), its really a small BB, not a Cruiser. (eg: the Cruiser Riders described elsewhere, might be better described as Battle Riders)

Likewise the Tigress with its capacity for independent operations, troops and a very large fighter wing might be better designated as a Cruiser. Of course a problem arises in the politics of calling one of your largest combat vessels a Cruiser rather than a BB/Dreadnought. Especially when looking for funds to build them.
 
Hans is right. They have to survive longer than other ships.

How do you do it without making cruisers stronger as well? The more fire power a massed fleet has will also increase it's survivability. The Tigress also has the ability to jump away from a battle which a battle rider won't.

I think most major engagements will be unequal, with strategic movements of fleets to make it so, eg trading space for time to gather elements together. The doctrine will determine many designs and one has to think massed fleet versus massed fleet, not a BB vs BR.
 
It also occurs to me that the Imperium is on the verge of Black Globe technology which does act as armour vs Meson Guns AND is virtually exclusive to the Imperial Navy as/when production of Black Globes comes on line.

At 40% flicker, all the nasty results fall behind the +8 DM to the Interior Explosion Damage Table. This benefits both vessels of course, with advantage falling to the TL15 ship with the capacity to have a PP & PP Back-up in the same space & costs as a TL14 ship, retaining its agility for longer and of course the +/- 1 benefit of higher tech computers.

I'm back of course at thinking the supposed BB problem is only related to the underlying TL (TL15) this discussion is based around.

I'm a little slow on the uptake, most of my gaming experience has been at TL11-13 where CV's rule the space between the stars.
 
The bigger ship has a bigger zucchai crystal array to absorb more damage into via the BGG.
 
BTW all: before getting too carried away building gigantic killer ships don't forget the limiting factor of budget in the equation. The reason that not all BB's are a Tigress is that there is always a budget involved.

Without it then really the whole system falls apart as meaningless because everyone will have unlimited firepower, speed, and "armor". Highly unrealistic IMHO, and not as much fun to design.
 
What is the budget of the Imperium? We know only a little economics, such as the Imperial Credit is a fiat currency (but no M1/M2/M3), there is little external trade so an economic autarchy, then throw in things like 100% deficit spending and the big ships are an economic boon as well.

We also would need to know threats that the fleet is preparing for.
 
A lot of this is from LBB supp 9: Fighting Ships.

That supplement is riddled with design errors. IMTU it is an Imperial propaganda piece intended to mis-inform potential adversaries...

What is the budget of the Imperium?

:) its not detailed in canon & attempts to extrapolate from canon sources are discouraged by the authors (as not being intended for that purpose) and lead to non-cannon answers.

For much smaller Regimes, you have the choice of Striker, TCS or Pocket Empires.
 
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Having skimmed my way through most of the debate, it strikes me that the assumed tech for all this discussion is TL15.
That's because the setting material deals with Classic Era cruisers and battleships. (It's possible that T4 and T20 background material also has something to say about combat vessels of their respective milieux, but if so, I don't know about it.)

I'll put forward a theory that the 'problem' only occurs at TL14/15 and the Imperium holds a TL advantage over all its neighbors, making a BB based navy more viable (although perhaps not optimal).
It's an easy enough theory to test. Just put some TL15 battleships up against their own cost of TL14 battleriders and see how they do.

However, I suspect that the big problem is meson guns, since meson guns ignores conventional armor and every cruiser-sized ship and up has room for the best available meson screen.

I'm also of the thought that Cruisers and BB's can be any size, the difference is in their mission profile.
That's not the definition used in the setting material. If Marc wants to change the setting to fit the rules, that'll work too. But at the moment we're talking about changing the rules to fit the setting. (Which I personally think is the proper way to go about it).


Hans
 
How do you do it without making cruisers stronger as well?
You introduce size-dependent advantages. I've made some suggestions in a recent post. They'd have to be tested to see if they worked, of course.

The more fire power a massed fleet has will also increase it's survivability.
Which is why it doesn't make sense to buy one basttleship if for the same money you can get a full squadron of smaller ships that are individually almost as effective.

The Tigress also has the ability to jump away from a battle which a battle rider won't.
Two different, albeit related, discrepancies: Rider vs. ship and cruiser-sized vs. battleship-sized.

I think most major engagements will be unequal, with strategic movements of fleets to make it so, eg trading space for time to gather elements together. The doctrine will determine many designs and one has to think massed fleet versus massed fleet, not a BB vs BR.
We are thinking about X battleships vs. 6X cruisers. The battleships lose.


Hans
 
BTW all: before getting too carried away building gigantic killer ships don't forget the limiting factor of budget in the equation. The reason that not all BB's are a Tigress is that there is always a budget involved.
But the reason why a Tigress is a bad investment (under the current design and combat rules) no matter the size of your budget is that you can get eight or ten times the firepower (i.e. spinals) by buying cruisers instead.


Hans
 
What is the budget of the Imperium?
The military budget of Imperial member worlds average 3% of their GNP. Of this the Imperium gets 30%.

We also would need to know threats that the fleet is preparing for.
A simulataneous attack by the Zhodani, the Solomani, and one lesser threat (Julians, Aslan, Vargr)? Complicated a bit by assets stationed in one part of the Imperium being no use at all in another part.


Hans
 
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Matt123 said:
I'm also of the thought that Cruisers and BB's can be any size, the difference is in their mission profile.

That's not the definition used in the setting material.

Thats interesting, I have missed that definition, can you point me toward it?


You introduce size-dependent advantages. I've made some suggestions in a recent post. They'd have to be tested to see if they worked, of course.

& ensure those size dependent advantages also translate into other tech levels, for example TL10/11 where the largest build-able ships are 49,999ton / 99,999 tons.

If Marc wants to change the setting to fit the rules, that'll work too. But at the moment we're talking about changing the rules to fit the setting. (Which I personally think is the proper way to go about it).
:) Whilst I prefer to find solutions within the existing rules.[FONT=arial,helvetica]

[/FONT] I'm still not convinced there is a problem. All that has been identified, is a period in Traveller canon where firepower exceeds defenses. That has occurred repeatedly through history, it is not something new. And it is usually rectified by some bright spark working out a better defense. In this case Black Globes/Force Fields.

If you want, assume the Imperium has issued TL15 factor-4 Black Globes to its capital ships of 100,000 tons plus, and just not told anyone or published it for public consumption, as in the publication Fighting Ships. Its not an unreasonable assumption if you feel there is currently an imbalance.
 
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I'm also of the thought that Cruisers and BB's can be any size, the difference is in their mission profile.

More like the mission they're designed for. AFAIK the mission defined for 20th Century cruisers (which I think Traveller's cruisers are modelled on) is to be able to undertake long-duration missions independently, intervene on a small scale on the ground, and to be able to run away from any enemy they cannot handle. They were not designed to engage battleships except as part of a fleet.
 
That supplement is riddled with design errors. IMTU it is an Imperial propaganda piece intended to mis-inform potential adversaries...

its not detailed in canon & attempts to extrapolate from canon sources are discouraged by the authors (as not being intended for that purpose) and lead to non-cannon answers.

For much smaller Regimes, you have the choice of Striker, TCS or Pocket Empires.

Are talking MT's fighting ships or supplement 9?

Economics wise, we can infer many things from canon statements about it's economy, eg it's a mixed market economy with a fiat currency without depedence on external trade. It is a huge economy as well, I would think it would be the reason for subsectors, sectors and Domain's; as economic units.

Which is why it doesn't make sense to buy one basttleship if for the same money you can get a full squadron of smaller ships that are individually almost as effective.


Two different, albeit related, discrepancies: Rider vs. ship and cruiser-sized vs. battleship-sized.


We are thinking about X battleships vs. 6X cruisers. The battleships lose.

Except the Imperial Navy is BB's, BR's, CA's, CV's, etc. and then you have to place it vs x threat navy. The only polities that do seem to pose a credible threat are the Hivers and Solomani, Zhodani society doesn't even work, but that's another thread, they haven't been successful in any of their wars in the Spinward Marches, why are they fighting?

BB's make sense for various reasons, one is that that is the way the Imperium does things, large ships to show Imperial power. The Imperial Navy is the Imperium, not just logically, but we can assume it historically from the civil war and Emperors of the Flag and such.

The military budget of Imperial member worlds average 3% of their GNP. Of this the Imperium gets 30%.


A simulataneous attack by the Zhodani, the Solomani, and one lesser threat (Julians, Aslan, Vargr)? Complicated a bit by assets stationed in one part of the Imperium being no use at all in another part.

Budget wise though, you have to figure in the ability to deficit spend, and for years and years. The building of ships is also a way to inject liquidity in the economies of local worlds, so in turn it is growth and employment.

Assets spread out in the Imperium still have the use of being a threat to any of the Imperium's foes. Even a simultaneous attack, only has limited time before the Imperium can gather forces, other sectors will commit their fleets to the fray, for example, in the Spinward Marches how long before forces from the Vland sector reach there? Vland will definitely not want to see the Zhodani on their perimeter, plus the loss of trade. Actually the Imperium would be far more aggressive with her neighbors, just as a matter of how the canonical polities are working, but when Traveller was written, it had become unpopular. But historically, there are a thousand little wars interspersed with a few huge ones, why this would change in the future I don't know. Nor is there any overall governing body to keep the peace.

These are the sinews of war, the economics and doctrine of the Imperial Navy, the threats it willl meet during wartime and it's duties during peacetime. With just giving the capital ships 1 spinal per 100k tons, it increases the threat of capital ships and as Aramis strated, it can absorb more with its BGG's as well. So size is an factor and then there is the psychological factor of keeping the peace between 11,000 semi-autonomous worlds, when the Tigress appears in system, you know the gig is up.
 
One way to look at this by looking at history. Governments & military have not always made the correct strategic choices when deciding fleet compositions...
 
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