Barely There: Ursa Worlds of the Imperium

[Garnfellow]

I've applied a little more thought power to why GenAssist would spend the time and effort to uplift the Ursa. . . . To become a successful uplift, bears would need to have improved their ability and desire to live in groups with complex social structures.

I was thinking along similar lines myself, and in particular fox domestication, but coming from a slightly different direction.

GenAssist may have been working on creating guard animals for colony worlds with particularly hostile native life. (I still like Furioso as a test case.) Hyper-aggressive 1,000 kg murder machines that were also bonded as strongly to human masters as the most protective family dog.

Making larger, more aggressive bears was easy. Making them loyal and obedient to humans? Much, much harder. GenAssist kept tinkering with genes associated with other domesticated mammals until they ended up with sentient, social bears – smaller and far less aggressive than desired. A total disaster as far as meeting the project goals.

 

[tjoneslo]

The more I think about it, I become more convinced that the Ursa were not uplifted for any specific purpose.

GenAssist should be making their money doing completely boring things like genetically modifying food crops to grow in alien biospheres and maintaining bio-active life support systems.

The uplift projects are done as part of the research arm. My reference for this would be things like Bell Labs and IBMs research labs during the 50s to 70s. The companies maintained large pure-research divisions funded through the profits of the larger company. Rather than being directed research required to produce results, it was directed toward general research in the area. Bell Labs produced, for example, the Unix Operating System, a project which has had a major impact on the world but exactly zero revenue for Bell.

This also follows the examples of the Vilani corporations. The Vilani companies, who have existed for centuries, also maintain similar kinds of research branches. So GenAssist, even as a Terran/Solomani corporation would be pushed to maintain a similar kind of research arm.

So GenAssist research arm is producing Uplifts as a pure research project into the limits and affects of genetic engineering. How much of a creature's nature can be changed by modifying its generic code, how much can be changed by selective breeding, without producing unstable or non-viable specimens.

Another question I have is what was the story behind the acceptance of Dolphins and other uplifts as sophonts, with full rights. Human history is rife with examples of minorities being oppressed with their civil rights severely limited or non-existent. So the transition from animal to Sophont may well have been an unpleasant experience for GenAssist and the species involved.

Several earlier posters have hinted at the conflicts inherent in the uplifts becoming recognized as full citizens. I think there is a real and interesting story there.

So the Ursa project is a failure, in part, because the Ursa can't, or won't, successfully make the argument for their own full rights. Instead they run to the far corners of the ROM.

 

[GypsyComet]

So the Ursa project is a failure, in part, because the Ursa can't, or won't, successfully make the argument for their own full rights. Instead they run to the far corners of the ROM.

Thereby passing the Practicals instead of the Written part of the exam.

 

[LeperColony]

To become a successful uplift, bears would need to have improved their ability and desire to live in groups with complex social structures.

I feel like this veers back into the territory that Whipsnade was critiquing. We thnk these would be preconditions for sentience because of how the human experience has played out.

But I see no reason why a drive to socialize would necessarily be a precondition for sentience, especially in a directed process like an uplift.

Instead of asking "how would bears change into smart bears," maybe the question should be "what sort of behaviors would we expect to see in smart bears?"

GenAssist may have been working on creating guard animals for colony worlds with particularly hostile native life. (I still like Furioso as a test case.) Hyper-aggressive 1,000 kg murder machines that were also bonded as strongly to human masters as the most protective family dog.

This is sort of what I meant when I said I don't find practical reasons persuasive. There have to be cheaper and quicker answers to security questions than trying to raise an animal into sentience.

How many decades does this take? How much money? For a guard animal to deal with hostile natives? It's hard to see how robots or people with guns or sentry turrets or what have you wouldn't be equally (or more) effective, for far less cost.

Unless it's a Star Trek 4 thing, where some alien just wants to talk to a super intelligent bear or it'll destroy the planet, I just don't see any practical issue that justifies the uplift process.

To me, only pure research, or research into the Ancients, or ideologically driven research answers the why. Now, once they had smart bears, did they try to utilize them for some of the purposes people have mentioned? Sure, that makes sense.

But I can't see anyone reasonably signing off on an uplift as the proper solution to exterimating hostile animal life.

 

[tjoneslo]

Basically, they'd want the great strength, large size, "loner" nature, and the ability to hibernate. The last part would be particularly important and would probably be tweaked with quite a bit.

I like quite a lot of this about how the Ursa would build communities. But this still maintains the idea that the Ursa are part of, and dependent upon, a larger community. How would you tweak this to build an independent Ursa worlds, where there is no interstellar government to supply food, technology, or social contact/connections?

The hibernation thing bothers me. Hibernation is a risky biological function. You don't always wake up from hibernating. And the thing that drives the hibernation is a lack of available food.

As the lead researcher for the Ursa uplift project, one of the first things I would do is breed the pre-sapient bears out of their binge-fast eating cycle. Aramis pointed this out too. Bears in an area with a sufficient food supply will congregate peacefully and interact. I may not remove the biological ability to hibernate, but would try very hard to regulate their metabolism didn't require as much food and lessen their drive to compete over food. And feed them all very well. And as a side effect, would allow the bears to never need to hibernate.

 

[kilemall]

HMM, as to uplift reasons, could be simply for breeding a sort of super logistical support colonial projects or soldier- like Wojtek

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojtek_(bear)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVu3RX2YxPw

 

[Condottiere]

That should cover the bare necessities.

You can breed rats to become explosive ordnance disposal technicians, or food service specialists.

 

[GypsyComet]

You can breed rats to become explosive ordnance disposal technicians, or food service specialists.

Talking rats might just cause a revolution in Sollie space. Or *be* one. They would know where all the bodies are buried.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

I like quite a lot of this about how the Ursa would build communities. But this still maintains the idea that the Ursa are part of, and dependent upon, a larger community. How would you tweak this to build an independent Ursa worlds, where there is no interstellar government to supply food, technology, or social contact/connections?

There really isn't a set of hallmarks or signs of sophonce that everyone agrees upon. The DGP books are the semi-canon source of knowledge on this, but even they are a bit nebulous... Later books mostly skirt the issue.

1. Advanced technology use is primary hallmark of any sophont.

2. Advanced language including the capacity for abstract conceptuality.

3. But higher social organizations and hierarches are probably another very important hallmark of sophonce. Cooperation and collaboration are necessary for large societies. No sophont is an island or something like that... Governance and polities are a function of complex social organization.

If humans are uplifting them, then there is a better than average chance that humans will impose their ideas of culture and civilization upon the Ursa...

And after a few generations of selective breeding and geneering, we could have social bears...

Or not, if you don't like it. It is fiction after all... LOL

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[GypsyComet]

I prefer to slide the socialite<->loner average way over toward loner for the Ursa, without precluding social behavior. Humans run the spectrum but lean social. Ursa can also run most of the spectrum while leaning heavily toward loner. The result is small communities that actually own a spot on the map and maintain many of the trappings of civilization, surrounded by a cloud of solitaires. The precise structures will vary somewhat by world, and thus specific environmental factors, but the default will be much like certain part of the Old West (as we recognize it, at least) with the Trading Post or railhead town sitting near enough a large population of lone miners, trappers, and herders to serve their occasional needs.

 

[savage]

http://www.boredpanda.com/adopted-b...id=adopted-bear-russian-family-stepan-a20.jpg

Maybe its not so far fetched. :rofl:

 

[Whipsnade]

I prefer to slide the socialite<->loner average way over toward loner for the Ursa, without precluding social behavior. Humans run the spectrum but lean social. Ursa can also run most of the spectrum while leaning heavily toward loner. The result is small communities that actually own a spot on the map and maintain many of the trappings of civilization, surrounded by a cloud of solitaires.

That's pretty much what I've been driving at. You've taken known aspects of Ursidae behavior and carried them forward to the Ursa just as GDW carried aspects of Canidae behavior forward to the Vargr.

The precise structures will vary somewhat by world, and thus specific environmental factors, but the default will be much like certain part of the Old West (as we recognize it, at least) with the Trading Post or railhead town sitting near enough a large population of lone miners, trappers, and herders to serve their occasional needs.

And among those occasional needs will be reproduction, another behavioral aspect in which the Ursa shouldn't ape - pun intended - humans.

Temperate and arctic bear species are monoestrous. They have one breeding season due to seasonal food availability and the need for young to survive the winter. (Tropical bear species are polyestrous for obvious reasons.) Whether mono or poly, estrous does not occur in bears as often as humans.

Estrous is also suppressed by cub rearing. A sow with cubs will not go into estrous and thus will not be able to conceive for two to three years. Again, compare that to humans. The fact that cubs suppress estrous means the males in some bear species kill cubs sired by other males in order to force a female into estrous.

While I'm not suggesting that sentient bears will regularly practice infanticide, I do wonder what sort of "families" and 'communities" such an uplifted species would create.

As for the suggestion that GenAssist would somehow enforce human cultural norms, I'll repeat that if Yaskodray & Co. didn't get all the Canidae out of the Vargr I doubt that GenAssist will get all of the Ursidae out of the Ursa.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm fascinated by the factoids that:
dominant males intent on breeding are very violent and aggressive
nursing mothers are very violent and aggressive
adolescent/young adult males and non-nursing females are most social and least aggressive.

Perhaps the Ursae have these tendencies mitigated somewhat by the uplift, but wouldn't it be interesting if older males become more aggressive and seek out a mate, the family group then becoming a no-go zone for anyone but a very well known and trusted friend.
Most 'adventuring' bears would be younger males and birth control females.

 

[Condottiere]

Doesn't sound like any Wookies that I know.

 

[GypsyComet]

Doesn't sound like any Wookies that I know.

You know some Wookies?

The only Canon view we still have of Wookies is a war-time look in III, unless something in a book survived the Mouse Purge. The holiday-show-that-shall-not-be-named does not count. The war response in III and their presence in the Senate in I suggests that the Wookies are organized enough in peace to be effective in war, making them far more social than I think the default Ursa would be.

Militarily I doubt the Ursa are comfortable above the level of warband, though the clannishness established by their T20 material does suggest that they can appreciate belonging to something larger than themselves. The idealized nucleus-and-cloud community I mentioned before is going to be fractious and individualist when left to themselves, but will close ranks with terrifying speed if prodded. On a world they know they become a nightmare guerrilla force. Their supply lines can't be cut easily, or even found. Deep winters are not enough to flush them out. They are naturally camouflaged, and even the largest of them, a half-ton each, can climb trees faster than any human.

 

[Whipsnade]

It's fascinating the read all this speculation on how interesting the Ursa could have been.

 

[mike wightman]

They still could be - a T5 or MgT supplement could overwrite the T20 stuff with new canon.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

What is overlooked in this conversation, is how different races are going to react and are influenced by the interstellar community. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Social behavior changes when it comes in contact with another culture. Over time races living within one culture, are going to change their behavior to fit in with the cultural norms of the community they have chosen to live in. These civilized races will act far different from their native culture. So a Vargr in Imperium are going to act differently than in the Vargr Extents. You therefore, have two different culture within the same race.

Interstellar communities are melting pots. Races adapt their outlooks and cultures in order to interact with the rest of the races within the society created. This doesn't mean their parent Homeworld or Interstellar Community has changed, they just adapt to living in those cultures. In time, isolated communities will forget their homeworld attitudes and see the Interstellar Community way as the norm.

 

[whulorigan]

What is overlooked in this conversation, is how different races are going to react and are influenced by the interstellar community. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Social behavior changes when it comes in contact with another culture. Over time races living within one culture, are going to change their behavior to fit in with the cultural norms of the community they have chosen to live in. These civilized races will act far different from their native culture. So a Vargr in Imperium are going to act differently than in the Vargr Extents. You therefore, have two different culture within the same race.

Interstellar communities are melting pots. Races adapt their outlooks and cultures in order to interact with the rest of the races within the society created. This doesn't mean their parent Homeworld or Interstellar Community has changed, they just adapt to living in those cultures. In time, isolated communities will forget their homeworld attitudes and see the Interstellar Community way as the norm.

Yes, but in this case this is only valid up to a point. The historical examples you are citing (i.e. Romans vs. provincials and foreigners/barbarians) are indeed different cultures, but all of the individuals of all cultures involved are of the same species, namely Homo sapiens.

In the case of the Ursae or Vargr, we are discussing different species whose behavior derives from a different physical neuropsychology that is biologically-based. As they are all sapient species, they will be able to modify their own behavior to a degree by choice, but it will be unnatural for them, depending upon how far the behavior changes stray from their species norms. Their different natural instincts will still generate unique emotional responses that are species-specific.

 

[Rigel Stardin]

Certain instinctual behaviors would be suppress in the Imperium over Usrae and Vargr Territories. Example of this would be: the natural instinct to leave the runt of the litter die. Infantcide was also mention in this thread. Aslan, Vargr and Usrae enclaves would be harassed or charged with Murder in such cases. The backlash would cause these three races to see the Human element of the Imperium as a threat. So you have to make a choice.

First, the three above mention races living in the Imperium made the choice to live there. Their decision to do so has altered the view of their culture and they suppress instinctual behaviors because it is beneficial to their race as a whole.

Second, The Imperium is aware of these Instinctual behaviors and allow them to be practice. The Problem with is, if it acceptable in one culture to be killed over an insult, the discord and violence would be wide spread. Most humanoid races would see these races as disrupted and not allow them to settle within their territory. Such Alienation would sooner lead to a wider spread problems, forcing them to discuss and enact laws protecting these races, even setting up 'Districts' within their own empire to allow these races to thrive. Such power bases could eventually, topple the Imperium from within.

Finally, The whole mindset of the Imperium is one of tolerance. Alien races are living within their border are allowed to do whatever they like on the planet they inhabit, while playing nice when on other worlds. Starports are evidence of this. But we also see the Imperium reacting to 'misbehaving planets' with superior firepower. Swear oath to the Emperior is not going to stop the bigotry or prejudice in the surrounding planets or planet side communities surrounding these enclave. The Imperium would spend more time and material suppress such actions, than guarding their borders. In the end, it would still be behavior modification through force.

That is why I look at interstellar communities as melting pots. Alien Races CHOOSES to live under the central authority because it has it's advantages. Therefore, they adapt to this environment because it beneficial to their species. The exchange of ideas also effect the outlook of the race who has entered into this partnership.

Now, those living in areas where the Central Authority is Vargr, Usrae or Aslan will do things differently than those living in the Imperium because that's who they are. So these 'Civilized' members of their race are seen with the same bigotry as those in Human dominated space. Hell, they may not even be allowed back into their territories for fear the Imperium is trying to subvert them.

In the end, it's a catch 22 for those Alien Races living under Imperium rule.