Not just humans -- Solomani humans. Zhodani and Vilani don't seem much interested in such enterprises. For them, it might be their homeworlds were so alien. Genetic manipulation wouldn't be as obvious a path as it is on Terra.
Barely There: Ursa Worlds of the Imperium
- Thread starter Garnfellow
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LeperColony
Traveller Card Game Dev Team
Perhaps performing uplifts was a way for the newly emergent Solomani to demonstrate they belong among the big players. As comparative newcomers, they may have felt a cultural and technological sense of inferiority.
Doing something the other Major human races hadn't could have been one way of asserting their equality or even superiority in those fields.
One issue I have with uplifting is the entire process seems so expensive and complicated that the practical problems they're designed to address must have easier solutions (if only by being avoided). How valuable does a water world have to be before it makes sense to spend decades raising dolphins to sentience?
But if the motivations are ideological, at least in part, that becomes easier to sustain. In my opinion, anyway.
Doing something the other Major human races hadn't could have been one way of asserting their equality or even superiority in those fields.
One issue I have with uplifting is the entire process seems so expensive and complicated that the practical problems they're designed to address must have easier solutions (if only by being avoided). How valuable does a water world have to be before it makes sense to spend decades raising dolphins to sentience?
But if the motivations are ideological, at least in part, that becomes easier to sustain. In my opinion, anyway.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
The K'kree may *think* that they are, given that embracing vegetarianism means your evolution continues...
This starts getting into the technical definitions of genetic engineering. Most of the descriptions of the races describe some sort of ecological shift forcing the evolution of the species into sentience. If the combination of environmental pressures and selective breeding for sentience is "uplift", I think we can add both Hiver and K'kree to the list of deliberate sophont engineering. This, obviously, takes a great deal of time like dozens of generations.
On the other hand, if you are limiting the definition to the kinds of work that GenAssist was reported to have been doing: direct manipulation of genetic sequences to achieve the end result, the list is probably just them.
The thing about both the Zhodani and the Vilani is they shared their homeworld with an alien race (Zhodani had the Droyne, Vilani had the ancients machines), and lived on a world with an alien biosphere. Both V&V and GT:Interstellar Wars goes into a great deal about how the Vilani lacked some basic levels of understanding of their own bio-chemistry. And by the time their TL reaches levels were uplift is possible, they have already encountered dozens of races.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Time to watch "Iron Giant" again.
Thanks for the encouragement.
The history of the Ursa lends itself to the social destination you label "furry", as their formative years were all spent in contact with Humaniti instead of them coming up with culture in a vacuum. That said, they have the entire Long Night (I see their Flight as being at the end of the ROM) to drift, so there is some hope of distinctiveness.
It's the fact that you understand that which means you're the man for the job.
As you pointed out earlier, the Ursa haven't been lab rats under the thumb of GenAssist's researchers for well over two millennia. That's more than enough time for their innate instincts and behaviors inform a social organization more organic to the Ursa rather than whatever social organization(s) was/were imposed by the "Third Chimpanzees" who uplifted them.
Sometimes the "explanations" cover simple Nazi-like drives to experiment. Which fits some views of the Rule of Man.
And Jim's involvement brings us back full circle...as he was the Cirque collaborator who pointed out that we already HAD uplifted bears via T20. I think that your criticisms should be considered, though, and one of them has me thinking that I may have to do a minor re-write in the story line of the two Ursa.
JIm, one thing Ursa can do that makes them useful is hibernation. So long as they have some body weight, they snooze. I need to mention this.
Damn it, my work is never done.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
When have the Terrans of the Rule of Man era been described as Nazi like? Or is that not what you are implying? Apologies in advance if I have read it the wrong way.
My understanding is the Solomani racial superiority and stuff grew during the third Imperium out of the Solomani Hypothesis and didn't become the Nazi like regime until post Rim War.
Something that I have been meaning to ask for ages - are there any Ithklur in Cirque?
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
While individual Ithklur do occasionally wander around (and a campaign I was in featured one in the Marches), they would be a looong way from home.
There are no Ithklur in Cirque. As for my understanding/misunderstanding of the Rule of Man, I always felt that the Uplifts themselves seemed a bit like Nazi experimentation, and surely the attempt to destroy the resulting Ursa fits.
The seeds were there.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
It is both noteworthy and normal for the Ursa to be the only failed GenAssist project we know of. I suspect GenAssist had well established purge protocols for their non-sentient projects, and someone at the Ursa facilities failed to recognize the important difference, or got soft-hearted for the big galoots.
It is also possible that the failed project story is a false narrative that no one now knows the truth of. That truth could be "field test gone wrong" or "client decided not to pay, so we'll just open the cages and let em run", or several other possibilities. The accepted narrative of one group discovering their impending destruction in time to not only escape but also rescue other groups depends on a systemic failure at GenAssist that is boggling.
It is, however, a detail from almost 3,000 years ago. Those facility personnel were going to get fired regardless, and the end result for the Ursa is known.
Simplistic but, given how the Nazi label is glibly thrown around these days, not surprising.
And they were there long before the NSDAP was organized in the back of that Bavarian locksmith's shop. Wells, Shelley, medieval Jewish golems, Greco-Roman myths, the idea was around decades, centuries, and millennia before Everyone's Favorite Bogeymen appeared.
As GC wisely points out, we don't know the real story. GenAssist has been around a long time, they've done a lot of geneering, they've uplifted a lot of species, they've worked with a lot of corporations and governments, and they continue to do so. SuSAG has a poor reputation, so you'd think a megacorp which routinely engages in genocide might have one too.
The "creation" myth told to us earlier in the thread in that stereotypical "brave, honorable, primitive, warrior" style could be just that: a MYTH. GenAssist may not have been terminating the entire Ursa project. Instead, GenAssist may have been may not have been done.
Those "heroic" ancestors of all the Ursa living now may not have been meant to be the final product. They weren't fleeing an Ursan genocide. They were fleeing the obsolescence of a certain Ursan type. They may have just got away from GenAssist before the project was finished and, with their lab subjects gone, GenAssist decided not to throw good money after bad.
Of course that's a more nuanced and "wheels within wheels" take on the story. It's far easier and more visceral to kneejerk "Nazi" instead.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Given that the "Solomani" name came from the same period or a little earlier and knowing how they would later be portrayed, it is hardly a stretch. The truth is less knowable.
GenAssist would, by nature, be always walking a line between caring about their subjects (to motivate success) and knowing that whole generations or gene lines would require purging periodically. The Terran patriotism of the IW/ROM era gilds a lot of sins and casts doubt on good acts, so we might find some GenAssist projects disturbingly Nazi-like in their dispassionate methods toward worthwhile goals, while other projects display more obvious altruism even if pursued for clients who may simply be looking for cannon fodder.
The line is particularly fine when sophont projects are undertaken, such as the Ursa, Phins, and the various Simian projects we know of. The results will be able to think for themselves, as will some number of ancestors, and creche raising is only good for creating patriots if you do it correctly. Treat them like lab rats and they will respond like lab rats...
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Solomani doesn't start making an appearance until the 3I writes their history books.
During the ISW era and the RoM the people of Earth were Terrans, fighting under the aegis of the UN. People of Earth were still very nationalistic.
Solomani, the actual Solomani hypothesis and the racial superiority of Solomani don't appear until 3I era, the nazification of the Solomani Condeferation is also very 'lazy' - read the original CT AM from the Solomani point of view and you will find the Imperium is a much more fascist state.
During the ISW era and the RoM the people of Earth were Terrans, fighting under the aegis of the UN. People of Earth were still very nationalistic.
Solomani, the actual Solomani hypothesis and the racial superiority of Solomani don't appear until 3I era, the nazification of the Solomani Condeferation is also very 'lazy' - read the original CT AM from the Solomani point of view and you will find the Imperium is a much more fascist state.
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Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The current vibe of the Solomani Confederation seems very much the People's Republic of China, the Chinese Communist Party, and it's Politburo.
Nope. First use of the term is credited to Hiroshi Estigarribia. (Pedantic, yes. )
More seriously, I suspect some form of Terran exceptionalism meme must have been prevalent as far back as the Interstellar Wars, given how easily it metastasized into Solomani superiority after the Long Night.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Nothing pedantic about it, see below
There is a considerable time gap, and none of the polities that existed during the long night in the Terran sphere used the term Solomani to describe/name their governments (unless I have missed one that did).
The term Solomani is not used at all, not even once, in the whole of the GT:ISW book, which is the definitive canon for the ISW era IMHO. This is probably because that book ends just as the RoM begins.
CT AM says this:
So it is used in the Vilani version of RoM communications from that time on, but I doubt very much if Americans, French, German, British, Chinese, Turkish, Indian et al referred to themselves as such.
Fast forward to the Sylean Federation becoming the Third Imperium and the term Solomani is used commonly. By the time the Third Imperium expands and absorbs the Terran sphere the Vilani designation of the Solomani Sphere was used.
Solomani supremacy suited the early 3I since they claimed Solomani descent - the irony is perhaps lost that they use the Vilani designation, and by the time of the unrest at court which lead to the Solomani Sphere as an autonomous region and eventually the Rim War we have the supremacy of Solomani meme.
I read the CT AM Solomani and see closer parallels to the Confederate States of America in space for the Solomani than the Imperials as yanks in space; the nazification stealths in with DGP's Rats and Cats IMHO,but only partially as something that was a bit of a cop out to try and explain why the Solomani Confederation didn't just stomp all over the 3I (internal conflict between the centrist/liberal confederation member states and the more right wing leaning ones).
I am beginning to think this is too great a thread drift and should be split to a thread of its own, unless the OP doesn't mind the discussion.
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I've applied a little more thought power to why GenAssist would spend the time and effort to uplift the Ursa.
We know GenAssist worked on uplifting the Dolphins, Orca, Great Apes, Orangs. But based upon current knowledge of these species, the uplift process would not have been a hugely difficult one. All of these species have (in their pre-uplift state) shown clear examples of having all the elements of a sophont species. They use tools, live in groups with complex social structures, and have some use of language skills.
To become a successful uplift, bears would need to have improved their ability and desire to live in groups with complex social structures.
If GenAssist managed to figure out how to manipulate the genetics of Terran based organisms to accept and be a part of a social organization much different than the one normally associated with the creature, that would be an interesting discovery.
Any time I see a SF story about a failed genetic experiment it usually is some horrific monster run loose that needs to be destroyed. The original Frankenstein's Monster story is much better than that.
My usual go-to version of a real world failed genetics experiment is the Siberian fox farm experiment. Here the idea was to breed tame foxes so they could be kept in captivity, thus making it easier to harvest them for their pelts. Except in the process of making the foxes tame, they also showed the results of any domesticated species: floppy ears and white spots on the pelt. The latter made the them useless for fox skins.
Does anyone know if GenAssist tried to uplift corvids?
We know GenAssist worked on uplifting the Dolphins, Orca, Great Apes, Orangs. But based upon current knowledge of these species, the uplift process would not have been a hugely difficult one. All of these species have (in their pre-uplift state) shown clear examples of having all the elements of a sophont species. They use tools, live in groups with complex social structures, and have some use of language skills.
To become a successful uplift, bears would need to have improved their ability and desire to live in groups with complex social structures.
If GenAssist managed to figure out how to manipulate the genetics of Terran based organisms to accept and be a part of a social organization much different than the one normally associated with the creature, that would be an interesting discovery.
Any time I see a SF story about a failed genetic experiment it usually is some horrific monster run loose that needs to be destroyed. The original Frankenstein's Monster story is much better than that.
My usual go-to version of a real world failed genetics experiment is the Siberian fox farm experiment. Here the idea was to breed tame foxes so they could be kept in captivity, thus making it easier to harvest them for their pelts. Except in the process of making the foxes tame, they also showed the results of any domesticated species: floppy ears and white spots on the pelt. The latter made the them useless for fox skins.
Does anyone know if GenAssist tried to uplift corvids?
epicenter00
SOC-13
I'm not really a big fan of bear anthromorphs for the same reasons Whipsnade isn't.
However, the topic is interesting, so I thought I'd give why they were Uplifted a stab.
I'd guess that whomever uplifted them intended to take advantage of certain "bear" traits. My first idea is that they'd be wardens of the wilderness of sparsely inhabited worlds. I know this flies in the face canon information that says they assemble in "communities" but it's the best I think of.
Basically, they'd want the great strength, large size, "loner" nature, and the ability to hibernate. The last part would be particularly important and would probably be tweaked with quite a bit.
The concept is that an Ursa would stake out a territory, learn all about it, build himself or herself a very secure shelter, then spend large amounts of time in semi-hibernation, emerging perhaps a week out of every month (or however often they the genetic engineers could balance biological needs with long periods of dormancy) to patrol their territory then go back into dormancy. This minimizes their impact on the land's resources (which may or may not be a thing but they're meant to be used in a variety of environments); Ursa do not have to go into dormancy, instead it is an instinctual reaction to local resources - Ursa in areas where they don't need to go dormant don't.
They were intended to be implanted with radio receivers or simply have a radio in their shelter (always on), and when a signal goes out requesting aid in their territory, they rouse themselves (Ursa dormancy is much easier to come out of than real hibernation), strap on their rescue equipment (and weapons) and go see what is up. A "rescue bear" I think would be pretty ideal - they're very strong compared to humans, could carry a human or possibly even a pair of humans quite easily even over broken ground for some distance. Brute strength would also let them right human-scale vehicles, possibly even pull lighter vehicles out of places they'd be mired (remember, they're intelligent so it wouldn't necessarily be direct application of brute strength - they could use lever and pulley principles). Their tough bodies would deter attacks by predators. An Ursa who can't handle a situation him or herself is not so proud as to try and handle it all - they'll call in others (their loner instincts aren't so great they'll attack on sight - they can cooperate for the days or weeks necessary to resolve a situation).
Their loner nature would be exploited in that they wouldn't get lonely in their jobs - bears are pretty happy being loners; they do not have any drive (outside of mating) which makes them "lonely." They are happy (and sane) doing completely solitary pursuits for their entire lives. When not attending to aid humans, they'd spend their time gathering data in their territory - census of various wildlife and similar things, which they retain or turn over to local authorities. Even their hobbies might feature things like birdwatching, collecting seeds, and so on, though Ursa are pretty intelligent and many also enjoy passtimes like reading, watching vids, and so on. Many have "back to the land" hobbies like packaging honey, making jams, smoked meats, and so on to trade.
While Ursa are by nature loners, they do still congregate every so often (much less often than in nature, perhaps once a decade) to find mates where they gather for a kind of festival where the males show off their suitability for breeding to the females. Unlike humans, there's no ideas of "equal parenting" - the female would chase away any male who tried such a thing, not a male would -- the female raises her cubs alone. After a few weeks, the company of other Ursa becomes intolerable (unbearable, you might say) and they drift apart again.
While Ursa are loners compared to their own species, many enjoy the company of other intelligent species and can spend years or even a lifetime living among other intelligent species. Their instincts of rivalry and territory-marking only apply to others of their own species (and were retained because of their 'warden' role - marking territory means the system is self-organizing). Many towns have the occasional Ursa who comes to trade, as well as an Ursa who lives in the town. Ursa do have a kind of diffuse culture - Ursa do meet to trade, especially at the edges of their territories.
However, the topic is interesting, so I thought I'd give why they were Uplifted a stab.
I'd guess that whomever uplifted them intended to take advantage of certain "bear" traits. My first idea is that they'd be wardens of the wilderness of sparsely inhabited worlds. I know this flies in the face canon information that says they assemble in "communities" but it's the best I think of.
Basically, they'd want the great strength, large size, "loner" nature, and the ability to hibernate. The last part would be particularly important and would probably be tweaked with quite a bit.
The concept is that an Ursa would stake out a territory, learn all about it, build himself or herself a very secure shelter, then spend large amounts of time in semi-hibernation, emerging perhaps a week out of every month (or however often they the genetic engineers could balance biological needs with long periods of dormancy) to patrol their territory then go back into dormancy. This minimizes their impact on the land's resources (which may or may not be a thing but they're meant to be used in a variety of environments); Ursa do not have to go into dormancy, instead it is an instinctual reaction to local resources - Ursa in areas where they don't need to go dormant don't.
They were intended to be implanted with radio receivers or simply have a radio in their shelter (always on), and when a signal goes out requesting aid in their territory, they rouse themselves (Ursa dormancy is much easier to come out of than real hibernation), strap on their rescue equipment (and weapons) and go see what is up. A "rescue bear" I think would be pretty ideal - they're very strong compared to humans, could carry a human or possibly even a pair of humans quite easily even over broken ground for some distance. Brute strength would also let them right human-scale vehicles, possibly even pull lighter vehicles out of places they'd be mired (remember, they're intelligent so it wouldn't necessarily be direct application of brute strength - they could use lever and pulley principles). Their tough bodies would deter attacks by predators. An Ursa who can't handle a situation him or herself is not so proud as to try and handle it all - they'll call in others (their loner instincts aren't so great they'll attack on sight - they can cooperate for the days or weeks necessary to resolve a situation).
Their loner nature would be exploited in that they wouldn't get lonely in their jobs - bears are pretty happy being loners; they do not have any drive (outside of mating) which makes them "lonely." They are happy (and sane) doing completely solitary pursuits for their entire lives. When not attending to aid humans, they'd spend their time gathering data in their territory - census of various wildlife and similar things, which they retain or turn over to local authorities. Even their hobbies might feature things like birdwatching, collecting seeds, and so on, though Ursa are pretty intelligent and many also enjoy passtimes like reading, watching vids, and so on. Many have "back to the land" hobbies like packaging honey, making jams, smoked meats, and so on to trade.
While Ursa are by nature loners, they do still congregate every so often (much less often than in nature, perhaps once a decade) to find mates where they gather for a kind of festival where the males show off their suitability for breeding to the females. Unlike humans, there's no ideas of "equal parenting" - the female would chase away any male who tried such a thing, not a male would -- the female raises her cubs alone. After a few weeks, the company of other Ursa becomes intolerable (unbearable, you might say) and they drift apart again.
While Ursa are loners compared to their own species, many enjoy the company of other intelligent species and can spend years or even a lifetime living among other intelligent species. Their instincts of rivalry and territory-marking only apply to others of their own species (and were retained because of their 'warden' role - marking territory means the system is self-organizing). Many towns have the occasional Ursa who comes to trade, as well as an Ursa who lives in the town. Ursa do have a kind of diffuse culture - Ursa do meet to trade, especially at the edges of their territories.
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