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The Early Days of Jump.

I like this but have question, wouldn't Starship's computer's handle the calcs in such a way as to render stellar motion moot? If not, why?
:omega:

I would say that IMTU, jump drives only do that - jump. They don't handle a ship's velocity: that's what the maneuver drives are for.
If you are immobile relative to Atar A, and jump to any point in your jump range, you'll come out immobile: relative to Star A.
If Star B is moving 350kps relative to Star A, then your ship will have a vector -relative to everything in its new vicinity around Star B- of 350,000km per LBB combat turn: 35 range bands for those who use them. A free trader would take about nine hours to suck that velocity up and match speeds with her neighborhood.

Now, the ship computer will tell you, or tell your drives, what you need to do to avoid that. But it won't be able to magically do it for you. You need to either jump somewhere that it doesn't matter how fast you're moving - far out from planetary bodies and insystem traffic - or you need to build up your matching velocity before you jump.
 
Another question.

So jawillroy, one, good call on the range bands, I do still use them, but I was raised on LLBs.

So, second thing, is the query, do you perhaps read C.J. Cherryh?
:omega:
 
So jawillroy, one, good call on the range bands, I do still use them, but I was raised on LLBs.

Thank you! I, too, came up using the LBBs. Alas, I never had the use of a basketball court for my roleplaying sessions, so I've found that a modified range band system usually works best for my combats.

So, second thing, is the query, do you perhaps read C.J. Cherryh?
:omega:

I do, sir. I found both her Company War and Faded Sun work to be extremely Traveller-y
 
Oh, goodie!

Thank you! I, too, came up using the LBBs. Alas, I never had the use of a basketball court for my roleplaying sessions, so I've found that a modified range band system usually works best for my combats.

I do, sir. I found both her Company War and Faded Sun work to be extremely Traveller-y

Yes, well what is the mod?

I have always found a comfortable place racking out in Union/Alliance/Compact Space. Except for that System Entry, that is a little fast for my liking, and that doesn't even get into the weirdness of the methane breathers...*shudders* oooooouuuu.
:omega:
 
For instance, in your fine mini-Traveller Movie: Getaway the Jump Grid charges and because of my crappy connection I got to watch the Transition to Jumpspace in real slow motion (which was totally cool:D), and the Jump Flare seems to start on the port side of the Starship.

I think that's just the camera angle.
 
I would say that IMTU, jump drives only do that - jump. They don't handle a ship's velocity: that's what the maneuver drives are for.
If you are immobile relative to Atar A, and jump to any point in your jump range, you'll come out immobile: relative to Star A.
If Star B is moving 350kps relative to Star A, then your ship will have a vector -relative to everything in its new vicinity around Star B- of 350,000km per LBB combat turn: 35 range bands for those who use them. A free trader would take about nine hours to suck that velocity up and match speeds with her neighborhood.

Now, the ship computer will tell you, or tell your drives, what you need to do to avoid that. But it won't be able to magically do it for you. You need to either jump somewhere that it doesn't matter how fast you're moving - far out from planetary bodies and insystem traffic - or you need to build up your matching velocity before you jump.


I went just the opposite. I use the Mass Precipitation Heresy (Planetary masses required) in my games and therefore Jump Masking.

I say that you ship must enter Jump Space with ZERO velocity relative to the local Gravity well (planet or star) and you exit Jump Space with ZERO velocity relative to the Mass that precipitated you out. This does break the Law of Conservation of Momentum, but only when you fail to include Jumpspace in your calculations. Part of the large mass of hydrogen is to compensate for the change in momentum (it is dumped in Jump Space). That's my handwave and I'm sticking to it.

I also have read (and loved) CJ Cherryh's SF work. I use a lot of her ideas for the FEEL of jump travel, but toned down a bit (no drugs required for humans). I DON'T like the idea of starships emerging a good fractions of the speed of light, so I use the Zero Velocity Rule for emergence.

So, back to your question -
IMTU, you could tell the distance by the Jump Flash (amount of Hydrogen burned) and be able to tell where they DIDN'T go by the Jump Mask of the planet and star, you cannot tell exact direction though.

As for the Methane Breathers of her Chanur books, I adopted and combined them into a race (or group of races no one knows) called the S'Haan. They are TL 17 and don't like to talk to people. They are mostly weird IMTU, but they occasionally do helpful things for no apparent reason: they saved the PCs one time and dumped them on a planet on the other side of the Campaign Setting.
 
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And so what? When you're building up a shared universe, that's the way you do it: You grab small throwaway references and build mighty edifices on them. Or, more often, you grab a big piece of no information about the subject at all and make something up completely out of the blue.


Hans,

As you wisely and continually point out: Canon has To make Sense.

(I remember getting roasted for daring to give the Duchy of Regina a senate on the flimsy evidence of the existence of a senator being kept prisoner on the Gaesh.

And your addition solved a problem. Without invalidating anything or creating additional problems, it solved the "problem" of the senator mentioned in A:1. (And solved it rather neatly too, I should add.)

DGP's artless and ill advised conflation of a hull grid vaguely mentioned in JTAS #24 into glowing, lanthanum-doped lines arranged in differing schemes by different major races neither makes sense or solves problems. Indeed, it creates many problems where originally there were no real problems to solve.

Whatever inspired DGP to detail the jump grid is irrelevant. The real question is if it's a good idea or not.

It's not a good idea. It's a kewl idea. An overly fiddly, overly twee, looks good until you actually think about it, kewl idea.

The combat system is an abstraction of how things "really" works.

True. I regularly point that out when the sandcaster discussion arises.

If you go solely by the combat rules, you can also damage the interior systems without damaging the hull at all. Howzat again?!!?

Rather easily actually. The only weapons that roll on the Interior Explosion table are those that either 1) bypass the hull like mesons or B) access the IE table via rolls on the Surface Explosion and/or Radiation Damage tables. So you either skip the hull (as with mesons) or damage the hull in such a way that you "access" internal components.

GDW were wargamers first, last, and always. Thanks to that, they usually wrote tight, logical wargame rules with few (if any) loopholes.

I think that the rationalization that jump drive damage reflect damage to the hull grid is an excellent one. How else are you going to explain damage to the jump drive that only reduces its capability? I'd think that either your jump-5 drive works or it has a hole and doesn't work. Reducing its capacity to jump-4 is just silly if it really represents a hit that damages the drive itself.

Ask yourself that same question about the powerplant or the maneuver drive. How can you "only" damage a maneuver drive or powerplant? Why are their ratings dropped instead of being destroyed (or rendered inoperable) outright? The answer is ancillary equipment.

A powerplant, maneuver drive, or jump drive isn't some stand alone black box. There are controls, power supplies, fuel supplies, instrumentation, and any number of subsytems associated with each. A jump drive's rating could be degraded because the drive's intregal computer controls can no longer safely handle calculations above a certain level. Or the fuel still sitting in a vessel's tanks can no longer be safely pumped to drive in the quantities required. Or certain instruments are no longer safe for use in certain ranges. The list is almost endless.

Sadly, one item that isn't on the list is hull integrity. I can scrub every weapon off the hull without effecting the jump drive one whit. Remember that HG2 battle example I sent you a while back? While attempting to prevent its escape, the Imperial corvettes and SDB prang that Sword Worlds strike cruiser round after round with near impunity destroying batteries and spilling fuel, but it's only that lucky nuc missile hit at the last moment that triggers an internal explosion and destroys the cruiser's jump drive.

I can answer them: Some riders ride inside, some (those with dispersed structure carriers) ride outside. Inside riders don't need a grid (but they probably have them anyway). Outside riders need a grid.

Why don't you have to buy grids when you build riders then? And, if grids are needed when a rider is carried outside, why can any vessel carry any rider as long as the carrying capacity is there?

In "real" life damage to the grids of outside riders effect the carrier's jump rating, but none of the existing combat systems are detailed enough to take that into account.

Sorry, but no. The combat systems are already detailed enough to allow for the degradation of weapons, computers, sensors, and drives instead of their destruction. The resolution is there already, grids can't fall beneath it.

A system so detailed would easily handle jump grids but DGP didn't bother to make it so. Jump grids are just another of their kewl ideas. Just another artless, half-baked, unexamined, don't work out the consequences, gollygee ain't it kewl construction similar to the Rebellion Without An Ending and the Alien Incursions.

Jump grids are a bad idea.


Have fun,
Bill
 
Sir, one doesn't mention the dreaded Zhodani Far Seer Battalion. We most especially mention the Zhodani Jump Seer Regiment!

It makes the Ratings nervous, hell, it makes Officers nervous too for that matter.

And of course even obliquely referencing the fact that NI has been using clairvoyants and telepaths in the Spinward Marches for centuries is right out...

:eek:

:smirk:
 
Except, Bill, the Rebellion wasn't their idea alone. It was GDW's as well.

It was the GDW fixation on wargames rearing its ugly head.

The 6+faction rebellion is ideal for wargaming.... but also lacks verisimilitude.
 
The 6+faction rebellion is ideal for wargaming.... but also lacks verisimilitude.

Excellent point.

Historically, most successful rebellions are followed within a few generations by a civil war, because the uneasy alliances that were formed of necessity to unite against "oppression" break down in the quickly-factionalized postbellum political climate. Rebellions require unity to succeed, unless what they're fighting against is already weak. In the OTU, the "Rebellion" would be perhaps better characterized by objective historians as the "Second Civil War"...
 
Hans,

As you wisely and continually point out: Canon has To make Sense.

..........

Jump grids are a bad idea.


Have fun,
Bill


Which is why, while I did quote the JTAS #24 article to show that Jump Grids came from Marc Miller (now matter how FX-y DGP mutated it to be), as I stated back then... there are no jump grids in my Traveller.

Yes, the hull performs roughly the same function by charging the entire hull, but a hole in the hull does not disrupt that charge... and wouldn't you usually patch a hole in the hull as soon as possible? The patch material is made of the same material as the hull, and is chemically welded in place, thus even the quick patch can be charged.


No glowing grids, no "network in the hull", just the entire hull performing the function.


Besides, it seems some have a distorted view of the purpose of that network in the first place. Marc never said it generated the jump field... all it does is keep the ship separate from jumpspace.

It is a form of power-as-insulation, not the drive itself.
 
What Psionic Institure?

And of course even obliquely referencing the fact that NI has been using clairvoyants and telepaths in the Spinward Marches for centuries is right out...

:eek:

:smirk:

Dear Sir:

The Imperial Navy has not used Psionics since the Suppressions. :p

So far, so good, but I have to go to work, so I'll check back Sevenday.
:omega:
 
It was the GDW fixation on wargames rearing its ugly head.

The 6+faction rebellion is ideal for wargaming.... but also lacks verisimilitude.
That's so very true. Their desire for squeezing the maximum number of different factions out of the situation led to the elevation of the Aslans and the Vargr from the minor nuisances the canonical description of them showed they were capable of being to major dangers that doesn't make sense. Not to mention the major AND blatant violation of basic Imperial principles that Strephon's clones were...


Hans
 
Except, Bill, the Rebellion wasn't their idea alone. It was GDW's as well.


Aramis,

As for the premise and set-up of MT's Rebellion, yes, both DGP and GDW had a hand in things. However...

It was the GDW fixation on wargames rearing its ugly head. The 6+faction rebellion is ideal for wargaming.... but also lacks verisimilitude.

Exactly. It makes for a good starting point in a nifty multi-player wargame and GDW - as good wargame designers - ensured that the Rebellion had a good starting point.

Sadly when the ball was handed over to DGP and the 6+ faction Rebellion wargame began to played, DGP didn't realise that multiplayer wargames normally have winners. They kept the starting position throughout the entire run of the "game", kept all the players in play, something that wargame designers would have never done.

GDW had earlier run a FFW "game" during Traveller's active history. That game had a start, middle, and end points. It evolved, grew, and acted as a game. When DGP ran the Rebellion "game" as part of Traveller's active history, they didn't realise that the game needed to evolve, grow, and act like a game. For almost it's entire run, it was the same, nothing happened, nothing really changed, no players lost or dropped out. It was like a five-year-long poker game with the same hands being dealt over and over and over...

No matter how well balanced the factions were at the starting point, something should have happened to them. The Real Strephon should have been overwhelmed, Daibei should have fallen to the Solomani, and Antares should fractured during it's flip-flops between the Protecturate and back. There should have been alliances and treaties and then broken alliances and treaties. The game should have flowed, but DGP kept it in a worthless stasis.

Sure, GDW helped set the game up and GDW all but turned over managed MT to DGP(1) for far too long, but GDW's failures were those of management and oversight. They had other things to do and didn't watch as closely as they should have.

It was DGP that forgot that Traveller used (at the time) a living history.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - Traveller might as well have been DGP's during this period. DGP actually issued the errata for the game.
 
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The Laws of Thermodynamics should apply to Jump entry/exit; there will be a waste heat signature from all that LH being burned and the phase change as the vessel shifts from normal space to jumpspace and back, not to mention the potential energy (and/or inertia) shift with respect to the mass of the rest of the galaxy.

Question from the back row! How much of that waste heat is absorbed into jumpspace, sir?
 
An answer from Professor von Thornwood.

Well, Mister...*consults seating chart and then looks back up* I am sorry.

*looks to class* Well, we have visiting Faculty today, Professor Robject of the Bilanidin Studies Group, welcome and I'll see you in your class later. *grins*

And in answer to your question, Professor Robject, most of the waste energy of the Transition to and from N-space to Jumpspace is photons in the form of Jump-flare. It is the reason the flare can be seen so far away.

So, in fact as far as my calcs show, not much heat at all, and most of that is from photon excitation.

Any comments class?
:omega:

EDIT: and you two in the middle there will please put away your little wargame please. we are discussing Jump Theory, not why people should be hung, drawn and quartered for their actions against the imperium. thank you.
:omega:

OOC: :p and there should have been a real winner, they did that for Traveller 2300..*shakes head* i can't believe i traded that *looks about to cry* i had a first printing and a map and....*wanders away sobbing*
 
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...Any comments class?

Well, in MTU the flare component is all entry related, none of the light or heat (save that of the ship itself) transfers into jumpspace.

And during the time in jump heat bleeds off into jumpspace at a prodigious rate. It actually becomes an issue of keeping the powerplant running at full output to keep everything from freezing up solid.

So when you drop back into normal space you are actually, briefly, within a dispersing cloud of nearly absolute zero degree jumpspace condensate. Making your reentry into normal space a non-event and practically undetectable.

It's how black globes work, reversed, more or less. The "globe" is a jumpspace threshold that very efficiently transfers incoming energy into the jumpdrive. But you have to bleed that off eventually, or blow up.

But then I like my TU with running silent and sneaking into systems. Now staying silent and maintaining sneak mode is another matter entirely.
 
Gents,

Some comments:

Jump Development: It seems that experimentation in low gravity and/or deep space enviroments is a neccessity for developing jump drive. You can have all the fusion power, gravitics, and whatnot but you also need to be in the right place. Leaving the Aslan aside for obvious reasons:

- The Vilani, Zhodani, and Hivers all developed jump after launching extensive sublight exploratory missions.

- The Solomani are said to have developed jump while researching ways to move around Sol's asteroid belt more effectively. They also launched sublight missions; real Traveller explicitly mentions the Islands mission and GT has added others.

- The Droyne either inherited knowledge of jump from the Ancients, redeveloped it on their own, were given it along with coyns during one of Yaskodray's visits, or a mixture of all three. How Yaskodray originally developed it is open to speculation.

- The K'Kree's development of nearly all technology is problematic. They somehow jumped from bronze spears to g-carriers in a few generations under a threat from the G'naak on their "moon", but captured and abandoned G'naak equipment surely played a role. They seem to be the exception to the rule, however their fear of carnivores coupled with their religious beliefs and the "fact" the G'naak were interstellar wanderers, surely drove the K'Kree to develop jump in much the same manner four of the other five Major Races did.


Jump Flash - I'd really, really, REALLY dial back claims about jump flash. It isn't even mentioned in CT, there're a few rather vague mentions in MT, TNE discusses it but uses a lot of qualifiers, and GT even suggests it can be easily masked.

Over the last few years the fan base has inflated this barely mentioned and deliberately vague, bit of RPG "chrome" into some system-wide "flash bulb" that announces to anyone anywhere that a ship has exited jump space. What's more (and thanks to TNE) entry flash has been equally inflated up to a point where you can always determine where anyone is jumping by watching their flash from anywhere in the system. (Even TNE didn't suggest that.)

Let's prune back jump flash to it's original size, okay?


Waste Heat - There is no rational, logical, or even semi-rational thermodynamic explanation beyond the well known PFM Principle(1) that can "explain" how waste heat is handled aboard Traveller starships and small craft. All the handwaves you'll produce will only add more problems to the mix.

The waste heat issues is best ignored or, if it must be handled, left to individual GMs who can tailor an "answer" to their players' level of scientific knowledge.


Have fun,
Bill

1 - PFM = Pure ****ing Magic
 
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Jump Flash - I'd really, really, REALLY dial back claims about jump flash. It isn't even mentioned in CT...Let's prune back jump flash to it's original size, okay?
Somehow I hadn't twigged to that. Thanks! That makes a big difference IMTU; I think I just sorta coasted along with the conversation on that one. No sweat for me.

There is no rational, logical, or even semi-rational thermodynamic explanation beyond the well known PFM Principle(1) that can "explain" how waste heat is handled aboard Traveller starships and small craft.

So, just so's I have your position clear, are you saying "ignore the waste heat, enjoy your stealth in space" or are you saying "don't waste time trying to ignore the waste heat, there is no stealth in space"?

Me, I'm coming to the conclusion that you can't hide the ir/em radiation beaming from your ship, so you can't go hiding your ship. But I waver.
 
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