The Early Days of Jump.

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Interesting thoughts.

So far, Whipsnade was on topic on the first point and brings up nice ones later, but they are not very fun to discuss.

Which was the point of the post, seeing what other Jump Scientists have to say on the matter.

If it is used it will most probably be used after some blending and processing, like Bilanidin cuisine.
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[aramis]

TNE's Jump Flash is most notable for being readable... (Ref's library data in one of the TNE Sourcebooks; don't have to hand to check, ISTR RegSB.)

If it is readable to reverse engineer a plot, every pirate, corsair, and commerce raider is in trouble.

 

[matrix cypher]

Hmmm interesting things to think about.

Jump flash: Its not really that important to me, use it or loose it. Its all a matter of your choice in your traveller. Its not in some versions of traveller and is in others.

Waste heat: well if fusion is supposed to be more efficient then fission, then why is it using so much fuel? Could it be that some of that Lhyd is being used for coolant? During normal space operations that extra hydrogen is used with controlled venting to cool the ship of its excess generated heat, and radiated heat is generated and mostly disposed of during jumping which could be the flash entering jump space from its massive power that is generated from the jump drive to enter jump space.

IMTU I tend to use a jump flash when entering jump space, and not when exiting (dumping waste head from initial power generation). Another note is that the large amounts of Hydrogen are used in jump space to create sort of a protective bubble in conjunction with the hull grid to stave off the effects of jump space on the people inside of the ship, and that same field and jump space could be used to get rid of any excess heat generated during jump and or normal operations. Liquid hydrogen or the hydrogen gas that is used for fuel is partially used for cooling systems and the vessel. Another thing is that when a ship docks and pays docking fees they well kinda get a system flush for atmosphere and waste system rejuvenation.

Thats my take on it. ;D

 

[aramis]

Jump flash is canonical, in that it isn't counter claimed by CT nor T4 nor MoTrav, is explicit in MT and TNE, and has had effects in canon storylines.

If you delete jump flash, jumping vessels literally just disappear.
Flash on Entry:ships leaving hard to miss
Readable Flash on Entry: Ships leaving can be followed
No Flash on Exit: ships suddenly appear; may be mistaken for operator error, etc
Flash on Exit: sneaky arrival requires blocking objects; ships readily detectable on arrival
Readable Flash on Exit: You can back track where they jumped from!

Only in TNE, and only in one place, is it declared "readable" by others. THAT is a dangerous (and TU altering) decision; if you go that route, your destination is knowable. If not, then Jump is an escape, and only your vector implies where you might be going. If you further go with the "Jump drives 0 your reference vector, with the frame being the local star at the end" (Which is explicitly countered in TNE), then retained vector even is immaterial, and jump is truly anonymous save for stellar shadows.

The various options on jumping:
Vector Preservation/Realignment: None (TNE), Adjust relative to extant stars
Shadow effects: None/Entry & Exit only/Whole Course
Jump Flash: None, Flash on Entry, Flash on Exit, Flash on Both, Readable Entry Flash, Readable Exit Flash, Readable Flash on both.

For non-OTU, pick and choose.

For the OTU, It seems Vector is retained relative to the two stars involved, so jumps have to account for vector matching, jump shadow effects are only at entry/exit points, and Jump Flash is readable only on jump entry, and flash occurs at both ends.

 

[jfetters]

Hmmm interesting things to think about.

Jump flash: Its not really that important to me, use it or loose it. Its all a matter of your choice in your traveller. Its not in some versions of traveller and is in others.

Waste heat: well if fusion is supposed to be more efficient then fission, then why is it using so much fuel? Could it be that some of that Lhyd is being used for coolant? During normal space operations that extra hydrogen is used with controlled venting to cool the ship of its excess generated heat, and radiated heat is generated and mostly disposed of during jumping which could be the flash entering jump space from its massive power that is generated from the jump drive to enter jump space.

IMTU I tend to use a jump flash when entering jump space, and not when exiting (dumping waste head from initial power generation). Another note is that the large amounts of Hydrogen are used in jump space to create sort of a protective bubble in conjunction with the hull grid to stave off the effects of jump space on the people inside of the ship, and that same field and jump space could be used to get rid of any excess heat generated during jump and or normal operations. Liquid hydrogen or the hydrogen gas that is used for fuel is partially used for cooling systems and the vessel. Another thing is that when a ship docks and pays docking fees they well kinda get a system flush for atmosphere and waste system rejuvenation.

Thats my take on it. ;D

I agree, Matrix. The sheer amount of energy that would be necessary to open a hole into another dimension would have to be pretty big, and thus be detectable by some kind of means in normal space.

That said, you can do whatever you want in your game.

 

[Whipsnade]

TNE's Jump Flash is most notable for being readable... (Ref's library data in one of the TNE Sourcebooks; don't have to hand to check, ISTR RegSB.)

Aramis,

That's what I remember too.

Jump flash does exist in earlier versions, but more as plot points. It happens, but it isn't exactly noticable to everyone across the entire system. You're chasing someone, they jump away, and you know because of the flash. Or you've picketed a system so your sensor personnel are on a "flash" watch. You have to be looking for it and must be able to separate that signal from all the other noise.

TNE expanded on this primarily (I believe) because TNE also greatly expanded on the all-but-ignored role of sensors in Traveller. (MT had added some sensor work, especially to ship combat, but I feel that TNE folded the sensors into the mechanics more easily and logically.)

RSB has a very interesting passage regarding the effects of light-speed lag on sensor operations: You jump into a system a light-hour out from your enemy and you have one hour to watch and collect ELINT on them before the signal announcing your arrival reaches them.

All this supposes that your enemy is watching for jump flash and that requires the proper equipment, personnel, and training. Roughly speaking the Zhodani 17th Flotilla is most likely to pick up your jump flash across the system while Cap'n Blackie of the Running Boil is most likely to miss your jump flash altogether.

TNE also took the first step on a very slippery slope, as you mentioned. It was suggested that an observer could "read" an exit flash and gain some idea about the departing ship's destination. The passage that contained this idea was stuffed full of qualifiers; lots of "maybes", "sometimes", "mights", and the like. Players being players immediately took that idea, deliberately ignored all the qualifiers, and stretched it all out of proportion. TNE suggested a nanometer and the Hobby assumed a light-year.

GT, whether you consider it real Traveller or not, dialed back on jump flash in a piece of color text in GT:FI. An IISS cruiser on an ELINT mission deep in Zhodani space exits jump near a distant gas giant in order to mask her jump flash. IMTU, that's how jump flash is thought of too.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

So, just so's I have your position clear, are you saying "ignore the waste heat, enjoy your stealth in space" or are you saying "don't waste time trying to ignore the waste heat, there is no stealth in space"?

JA,

I'm saying neither.

I don't fet over waste heat because, as an engineer, I know the game can't be "fixed" with regards to waste heat. It's best ignored. We already accept gravitics, jump drive, light-second lasers, and all sorts of other fantasy and scientifically impossible devices, so why fret over waste heat?

As far as stealth is concerned, I believe in stealth in Traveller because it makes for a better game. And I believe in it knowing full well it is actually impossible.

IMTU, starships and spacecraft handle waste heat concerns "somehow". IMTU, starships and spacecraft can somewhat manage/limit their emissions. IMTU, starships and spacecraft can "spoof" their opponents' sensor capabilties through active measures. All this that, IMTU, stealth exists but not at the level of a "cloaking device" or even at the level of a submarine. You may very well know that someone is out there but whether you can get a target lock on them is another question entirely.

That's "stealth" IMTU: Whether you can "see" well enough to "aim".


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Waste heat: well if fusion is supposed to be more efficient then fission...

Cypher,

Fusion is more efficient than fission? Says who? What's you definition of efficient?

Could it be that some of that Lhyd is being used for coolant? During normal space operations that extra hydrogen is used with controlled venting to cool the ship of its excess generated heat...

Believe me when I say this, Lhyd is about the worst medium you possibly could use for cooling.

... radiated heat is generated and mostly disposed of during jumping...

So a vessel needs to jump every so often in order to dispose of it's heat load? Can you see the logical flaws in that?

Actually, this is precisely what I was referring to when I suggested people ignore the waste heat issue. Repeat after me: Handwaves solve nothing. Handwaves create more problems. Handwaves contain the seeds of their own destruction.

Your admirable desire to "explain" away the waste heat problem only creates more problems, which require more handwaves, which create more problems, and eventually you've painted yourself into a corner.

IGNORE the waste heat issue. It CANNOT be explained away within the canonical confines of Traveller technology.

It's a dirty little secret in the game. Just like how lasers can far more easily blind PCs than kill them, but there's nothing about that mentioned in any of the personal combat rules.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[jawillroy]

You may very well know that someone is out there but whether you can get a target lock on them is another question entirely.

That's "stealth" IMTU: Whether you can "see" well enough to "aim".

This is actually right where I've been heading IMTU.

IMTU, a scan operator might well miss your ship - especially if there's a lot of traffic, or a lot of junk - but not because the sensors can't see it. If you're out there in the nothing, you're going to show up. If you're on anything like an intercept course with another ship, both ships will know it. But since there's time lag, there's no good way to target anyone until you get within weapons-scan range as per LBB2.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Professor Thornwood peeks in again.

Well, the big issue lately seems to be detection.

I have to concur with that idea, and I am having a rather pleasant time reviewing the incoming data.

Thank you again.
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[jawillroy]

Well, the big issue lately seems to be detection.

Agreed, sir. For LBB2 combat, it's terribly important: whomever gets off the first salvo can conceivably win the fight right there. Although High Guard ignored it entirely IIRC.

Can't speak to later versions of Traveller.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Thornwood responds...

Agreed, sir. For LBB2 combat, it's terribly important: whomever gets off the first salvo can conceivably win the fight right there. Although High Guard ignored it entirely IIRC.

Can't speak to later versions of Traveller.

Indeed!

In fact it would seem, by my study of old Terran battles of the late 20-21st centuries that if you can get off a good, well aimed salvo you can pretty much win the fight right there.

Any other comments?

Oh and no need for Sir, I am merely a lowly Jump Scientist, Archivist and Researcher, no Knight me, perhaps you have mistaken me for one of my other relatives. *smiles* There are a few of us around...
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[Tysis]

"Dim the lights!"

That annoys one of my players so much that I make it a custom for any of my NPCs.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Now for five points...

What is that in Bilanidin?

And I demand the Lights be Dimmed..
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[matrix cypher]

Cypher,

Fusion is more efficient than fission? Says who? What's you definition of efficient?



Believe me when I say this, Lhyd is about the worst medium you possibly could use for cooling.



So a vessel needs to jump every so often in order to dispose of it's heat load? Can you see the logical flaws in that?

Actually, this is precisely what I was referring to when I suggested people ignore the waste heat issue. Repeat after me: Handwaves solve nothing. Handwaves create more problems. Handwaves contain the seeds of their own destruction.

Your admirable desire to "explain" away the waste heat problem only creates more problems, which require more handwaves, which create more problems, and eventually you've painted yourself into a corner.

IGNORE the waste heat issue. It CANNOT be explained away within the canonical confines of Traveller technology.

It's a dirty little secret in the game. Just like how lasers can far more easily blind PCs than kill them, but there's nothing about that mentioned in any of the personal combat rules.


Have fun,
Bill

Doh yer right about hydrogen being a lousy coolent, I was thinking nitrogen(smackes self on head)

Dont remember where I heard that fussion was more efficient then fission (not an engineer, so I kinda just thought cool)

As far as using jump space to get rid of radiated heat, I was more inline of thinking of the imediat effect of the the jump and the hot jump drive needing to cool down.

All of my comments were more in line of a psuedo handwavium explenation, more for flavor and no way considered fact or hard science.



Im not an engieenr, I just play one in a game.

And I have fun

 

[matrix cypher]

What is that in Bilanidin?

And I demand the Lights be Dimmed..
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Does the Bilanidin refrigerator light dim, stayon, or go out when they close the door?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Really now?

Does the Bilanidin refrigerator light dim, stayon, or go out when they close the door?

Of course it goes out, do otherwise would be inefficient.
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[BlackBat242]

Jump flash is canonical, in that it isn't counter claimed by CT nor T4 nor MoTrav, is explicit in MT and TNE, and has had effects in canon storylines.

So, another way of looking at is that jump flash is ONLY canonical in the MT/TNE universe.

The "not counterclaimed" part is irrelevant for CT, as CT also did not say it did exist... leaving it in the realm of the multitude of undiscussed and therefore unofficial things.

By your "logic", I can say that Virus is canon for CT, since the CT rules don't counter it, but it is in TNE and has effects in canon storylines.

 

[aramis]

I and I do agree that Virus is canonical. There is no "Canonical for CT"... there is only one canon: the OTU. I hate virus, but it is canon. Which is why MTU goes ATU in 1125...

The GTU isn't canonical, but it does have it's own canon.

 

[mike wightman]

I think I agree with Hans' view that canon has to make sense - however this leads me to believe that therefore not all of later canon should be retrofitted to the original TU.

Lets face it each itteration broke things in the previous version.

Pick and choose what you like but don't try andd make sense of the whole because it was never intended to make sense.

I often wonder what would have happened if GDW had got around to doing a golden age era of the Imperium book with the TNE/FF&S rules...