The Early Days of Jump.

[rancke]

There is that. But I don't think "kewl" illos are worth retconning the starship combat damage tables for CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, GT, MGT, and T5. Do you?

You mean print up new versions of all those books and go around to every Traveller fan and exchange the old books for the retconned books? No, I don't think it would be worth that kind of effort to keep jump grids. But then, I don't think that kind of effort is going to be needed. After all, it wasn't needed to change from Book 2 to Book 5 or from CT to MT or from MT to... well, you get my drift, I hope. All it would take would be to change the combat result tables in T5. Or you could even keep the combat result tables and live with the discrepancies. It's not like those tables aren't riddled with inaccuracies already. The failure to account for jump grids is well within the coarseness of the current grain.

(Oh, you'll have to retcon starship construction in all those rules sets too, as per the riders/tenders, LASH shipping, and RCES modular clipper questions that will arise.)

I don't think 'retcon' means what you think it means. Retconning means changing a previously established fact and pretending that it had been that way all along. Emphasis on the 'pretend'. You don't actually go back and change the text of previously published material. Introduce a cost for the lanthanum grids or say that it's subsumed in the cost of the hull. Say that it is SOP to embed grids in spacecraft because it makes them easier to shuttle from system to system, or that the design system ignores the cost difference. It's not really an insurmountable problem. It's not even very difficult.

You'll remember that when tracking was first suggested, it was described as anything but "non-infallible". The only rules set that even hinted that such a thing may be possible was TNE, and then it added so many qualifiers to it's own suggestion as to make the "ability" more of a "GM allows it to occur this one time" rather than a "Roll this task" or "Roll on this table" issue. What's more and precisely like jump grids, the possibility was broached in a piece of color text and not in any actual rules.

So what? If it's a good idea, it doesn't matter if it was introduced in a bit of color text or a solid rule. If it's a crappy idea, it doesn't matter if it was introduced in a solid (but crappy) rule or a bit of color text. Here's my yardstick: If it's a good or neutral idea, it should be kept. If it's a bad idea, it should be retconned.

As always, the game designers included a teeny piece of eeny-weeny descriptive "chrome" that the Hobby now wants to inflate into a setting-reshaping certainty. Some sense of proportion should be involved here.

I agree. That sense of proportion should be employed to evaluate if it's a good or a bad idea. So, once again I ask, what's actually wrong with the idea in itself?

I know one fellow who claims that the Ziru Sirka developed jump3 before the Interstellar Wars and his "proof" is the alternate solution to Gvurdon's Tale in CT's Vargr AM. Making a parsec out of a pittance, like that goof has done, isn't a very good idea.

I agree that it's a bad idea, but it's not because of the paucity of the evidence it is based on but because it's a bad idea to give the Vilani jump-3 technology before the Interstellar Wars. Come on, Bill, there are plenty of examples of single phrases and throwaway references that has been used by Traveller authors to write multiple-paragraph articles. Sometimes the results have been better than other times. But the salient question has always been "is this good stuff?" rather than "was this made up out of thin air?"

I don't need to get rid of them. Every version of Traveller since MT has already done that for me.

Then you don't have to worry, do you? But if you want to discuss the merits of the idea, it would be nice if you would, you know, say something about the merits of the idea.


Cheers,
Hans
------------
"I used to argue the matter at first, but I'm wiser now. Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
- Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Well...

Gentlebeings, this has degenerated a bit and is looking like a brush fire starting up....

*looks for Combustion Suppressor/Extinguisher*

Still I have always loved Jump Grids and the SOM is considered a Standard Reference for this Class.
mega:

 

[rancke]

Gentlebeings, this has degenerated a bit and is looking like a brush fire starting up....

Have no fears. Bill and I are good friends, we're not that thin-skinned, and we can disagree with each other without believing that the other is a dirty rotten b*****d.



Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*still a bit tender*

What after the CharGen Flame War Campaign Medal I earned, I thought to save others the pain...not that I didn't deserve it. :devil:

Am glad we are all grown ups here...right?
mega:

 

[Whipsnade]

So, once again I ask, what's actually wrong with the idea in itself?

Hans,

You can't examine the SSOM jump grid idea, or any idea, completely in isolation. How it fits into the structure of Traveller's pre-existing canonical descriptions and rules is of the utmost importance. Any idea may be good, but whether it is good for Traveller is the acid test.

What's wrong with the SSOM jump grid idea is that it's implementation would require too many changes to previously established rules and descriptions. At the very least, we'd have to make allowances and/or changes in starship combat and starship/spaceship construction.

The game simply isn't worth the candle here. It's a nice bit of chrome and makes for good illos, but fully and honestly implementing this chrome within the game would necessitate too many changes to other core rules.

Traveller canon is chaotic enough, we needn't add to the existing mess merely for the sake of "kewl" drawings.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. Magnus - Have no fears, Hans and I are old, old friends and rarely (if ever) get on each other's nerves.

 

[Whipsnade]

I can't see what's different about the SOM description. It doesn't say you can't cover it.

Andrew,

Re-read the section detailing how the gird is activated and for what purpose.

(DGP goes even further and suggests that different Major Races use different style grids. That idea is mind-boggling when you remember their descriptions about how immensely vital the grid energization sequences are.)

...but SOM says this requires the loss of over 10% of the grid, so actually SOM tries to fix a problem Marc created!

So two wrongs make a right?

JTAS #24 has many problems, but the SSOM doesn't fix any of them. In fact, it adds to the problems. Mr. Miller talks about grid damage and SSOM actually quantifies it, but neither provide a combat damage mechanism that can actually damage the grid. Go figure.

Further expounding on an already wobbling idea is helpful. SSOM's jump grid idea made things worse, implementing that idea will require more fixes, and that's why we should ignore it. It is easier to "kit-bash" JTAS #24 into something akin to canon than it is do to the same with SSOM.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

I don't see what the big deal is...

If you don't like it...don't use it
It's only a bit of 'color' fluff anyways and only in 'forbidden' canon, which can easily be overwritten.

If you like the description, describe it regardless of what the combat damage tables say.
If you like it and want the combat tables to match.. modify the tables to fit your vision.

Frankly, the fact that surface hits don't damage sensor arrays or communication antennae is more worrisome than worrying about a jump-grids anyways.

but the combat tables and the fact that jump-grids exist in the game IS canon
( that and a buck might buy you a cup of coffee...)

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Yeah Canon!

So are we finally done with Jump Grids don't/suck bonfire (didn't qualify as a war, hell, no one called anyone stupid yet. )

I was trying to have a thread relating to the History of Jump and the Major Races and now I have a rules squabble...

My point, I am dousing the bonfire if you people make me come back here right? Then I take the Coffee and then some one goes Downtown, got me.

Now Canon Issue dealt with correct, My Lords. (Before we have a forest fire, and I wanna strangle someone. *grins* Don't worry, I still dig ya.
mega:

 

[Straybow]

Frankly, the fact that surface hits don't damage sensor arrays or communication antennae is more worrisome than worrying about a jump-grids anyways.

but the combat tables and the fact that jump-grids exist in the game IS canon
( that and a buck might buy you a cup of coffee...)

Reinterpret "computer" hits as "sensor/comms" hits and solve two problems in one swoop.

 

[rancke]

You can't examine the SSOM jump grid idea, or any idea, completely in isolation. How it fits into the structure of Traveller's pre-existing canonical descriptions and rules is of the utmost importance. Any idea may be good, but whether it is good for Traveller is the acid test.

I agree 100%. But, IMO, "Does it fit with the current combat result tables?" is not a particularly acid test, because 1) the combat result tables are not very accurate anyway, and 2) it would be easy to fix the combat result tables if one so decided.

What's wrong with the SSOM jump grid idea is that it's implementation would require too many changes to previously established rules and descriptions. At the very least, we'd have to make allowances and/or changes in starship combat and starship/spaceship construction.

1) We wouldn't have to; it could easily be ignored as below the grain of both combat results and shipbuilding. 2) It wouldn't be very difficult to fix the combat tables and the shipbuilding rules to account for jump grids.

The game simply isn't worth the candle here. It's a nice bit of chrome and makes for good illos, but fully and honestly implementing this chrome within the game would necessitate too many changes to other core rules.

Well, unless you can come up with some instances other than the CRTs and the shipbuilding rules, we seem to've reached the point where there's simply a difference of opinion; you think the necessary fixes would be a major undertaking and I disagree. (I also think one could live without any fixes at all, although I'd certainly consider that a worse solution than doing the fixes).



Hans

 

[rancke]

Frankly, the fact that surface hits don't damage sensor arrays or communication antennae is more worrisome than worrying about a jump-grids anyways.

Amen, Brother, Amen!



Hans

 

[rancke]

So are we finally done with Jump Grids don't/suck bonfire (didn't qualify as a war, hell, no one called anyone stupid yet. )

I was trying to have a thread relating to the History of Jump and the Major Races and now I have a rules squabble...

That's the way bulletin boards work. People go out along tangents. As long as the thread is still related, people tend to be relaxed about it.

My point, I am dousing the bonfire if you people make me come back here right? Then I take the Coffee and then some one goes Downtown, got me.

Now Canon Issue dealt with correct, My Lords. (Before we have a forest fire, and I wanna strangle someone. *grins* Don't worry, I still dig ya.
mega:

If you want to redirect the discussion back to the original issue, you'd probably have better luck if you posted something new about it.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Frankly, the fact that surface hits don't damage sensor arrays or communication antennae is more worrisome than worrying about a jump-grids anyways.

Ishmael,

Surface hits effecting sensor and comm arrays is already a major problem, but adding SSOM style jump grids to the list increases that problem. That's the point I'm trying to make here; we shouldn't add to pre-existing problems.

As an aside, let me explain the difference between JTAS #24's and SSOM's grids. This should hopefully make clear up any lingering confusion between the two.

In the JTAS article, the hull grid protects the vessel from jump space only. All the other previously mentioned bits like zucchai crystals and lanthanum jump coils are still present and still performing their implied jobs.

In SSOM, the hull grid initiates jump itself. The grid first "rips" open a rift between normal and jump space and then "kicks" the vessel into the proper "tumble" required by the plotted jump course. After all that, the hull grid then protects the vessel in the same manner as the JTAS hull grid.

You can see that the role of the SSOM hull grid is far more important than previously described JTAS grid and - because that role is so much more important - damage to the grid which could previously be dealt with as "below the grain" becomes vitally important too.

Before SSOM, the grid was just of several systems needed for jump. After SSOM, the grid becomes a "first among equals". It initiates jumps, it establishes jump courses, and it protects vessels from jump space. The SSOM grid is the tail that wags the dog but, like a few other surface systems, and the SSOM grid cannot be damaged.

That lack of damage potential is a mistake and we shouldn't add it to the pre-existing mistake simply for the sake of "kewl" illustrations. Rules should trump pretty pictures.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Andrew Boulton]

JTAS#24 says damage to the grid is the main cause of catastrophic misjumps, which I'd say is pretty important.

 

[far-trader]

JTAS#24 says damage to the grid is the main cause of catastrophic misjumps, which I'd say is pretty important.

Seems like it should be important enough to mention just how and when the grid suffers such damage

(throws another log onto the dying fire, sorry Magnus, I felt a chill )

 

[jawillroy]

Marshmallows? I like marshmallows.

 

[Whipsnade]

JTAS#24 says damage to the grid is the main cause of catastrophic misjumps, which I'd say is pretty important.

Andrew,

Yes, failure of a JTAS-style grid results in the destruction of the vessel because it is no longer protected from jump space. You'll notice that in this case the vessel is already in jump space. That is not the case with the SSOM-style grid.

Failure of a SSOM-style grid, on the other hand, can result in any of one of several disasters:

A) The vessel enters jump safely, but fails to create the proper "tumble" and thus misjumps with regards to distance, direction, or time.
B) The vessel fails to enter jump safely and is destroyed in the attempt.
C) The vessel fails to enter jump safely, is not destroyed, and is "merely" damaged in some manner.

You'll notice that SSOM's description of grid failures goes well beyond what was previously written in JTAS #24. The SSOM grid has more "jobs" than the JTAS grid. It causes the "interpenetration" between normal and jump space, it controls the "tumble" a ship requires to fly its proper jump course, and it, like the JTAS grid, also protects the vessel from jump space.

Because it does more, it it now more important, and therefore shouldn't be "damage proof". We can barely (and wrongly IMHO) argue that sensor and comm hits are somehow folded into computer hits, but having so many critical features associated with the jump drive hived off into a system not accurately represented in the damage tables creates a far larger problem.

There are already enough goofs, gaffes, mistakes, and other head-scratching bits in Traveller canon. We needn't add to the chaos simply so we can have "kewl" pictures.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

Ishmael,

Surface hits effecting sensor and comm arrays is already a major problem, but adding SSOM style jump grids to the list increases that problem. That's the point I'm trying to make here; we shouldn't add to pre-existing problems.

Then what's the problem?
Make a variant that adds the damage effects you want and post it.
If everyone else agrees its a problem, those people will use it and applaud you..better yet, post it to the MT errata thread. ( and other errata threads if its also in HG and other damage tables )

After re-reading SSOM stuff about jump drives...
when more than 10% of the grid is damaged, the field might not close completely
damage to the grid is = ( number of critical surface hits * 100 ) / hull disp
if greater than 10, then jump becomes 'high risk', which increases difficulty and makes the task the same as for jumping from within 100d.

wow..the damage issue was taken care of
everything else is just so much 'chrome' for descriptive purposes

what was the mistake again?

oh yeah...sensor and comm antennae/dishes can't get hurt

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Really kids, not one of you even brought grahm crackers...

Ohhhh, so wanna make a Pit related comment but that thread is closed and for good reason to....wow, talk flame wars...oops...anyway.

Really are there no Scouts amongst the lot of you, I mean Marshmallows are all and good, but you need two other ingredients to make Smores, right...that is what you kids call still right...like a big warm sugar samich....mmmm

Besides which, I will surrender my Thread to the Local Gang, and Pay My Dues to the Thread Bandit Guild...

And sorry I didn't realize you all had a permit for this fire, ok, then just don't disturb the neighbors.

Now, as for the J-Grids and the SoM....

Actually if you look it says the Computer and Navigator Plot a Course and then the Drive Energizes the Grid, etc..and the L-H bubble is protecting the ship from the harmful effects of J-Space...will get back later with Citations since this seems more of an Informal Conference...is there any coffee and some real cream, from cows....or some boiled leaves in H2O.

When I get some real Time to dedicate to this, see in about two months, post-moving, I will bust out my books and other materials and go work on this "problem', which I am not so sure is, but no the less, it is an interesting idea and I have to go over my Traveller and reacquaint myself with the Starship Combat Rules again.....grrr. Still now you people have a Time Table to Publish something...or I will have to Get Timmy on This.

Got it...now, who brought the booze to this little campfire?
mega:

 

[pendragonman]

I always have my flask with me. Makes my "coffee" more interesting.