The Frozen Watch - how long?

[robject]

A smart question was asked in an other thread. How long can a marine be frozen in the service of the Imperium?

Ripley was frozen for what, 70 years or more?

Cryogenic storage is a near-future concept.

What should Traveller low berths be capable of, with proper keeping?

 

[far-trader]

Given:

• The canonical "Relics" (people frozen and later revived) in the TNE era having survived (decades?) without proper keeping.
• The also canonical (iirc) Timer Clubs (people who are frozen on purpose for decades or centuries to get to the future) which are proper keeping (constant monitoring and maintenance).
• And mention (maybe not canon) of Low Berth travellers going in once and being thawed only upon arrival at a distant destination involving several changes of ship (and very possibly not getting the best of proper keeping).

I'd say the technology can easily do months without attention, years without attention will detract from survivability (increasingly) but still be viable after decades. With attention essentially no limit.

I think they've been saying cryo is near-future for about 50 years now

If the question is how long are troops (not just Marines) kept on the Frozen Watch duty I think that's mentioned in chargen somewhere (MT?) and vaguely recall it being no aging for that 1 year assignment (presuming you don't get called on, but then... ).

I'm sure there was a big discussion about this on CotI not that long ago. Unless that thread is the one you're referring to?

 

[aramis]

there also are several methods of low berth. Timers use cryo; FW might be chill... and chill has different isseues.

 

[robject]

And there's also the "Fast Watch" variant, where troops are given Fast Drug until needed.

 

[Lycanorukke]

A smart question was asked in an other thread. How long can a marine be frozen in the service of the Imperium?

Looing at Digest 21 there's this little blurb in the Medical Digest section (dealing with suspended animnation)

"A character takes a 1 point wound for every 25 continious years he spends in a cold berth. When all characteristics have been reuced to less than 1 the character dies".

Chill beth does 1 wound per year, and both require 1d days of total inactivity to heal each wound.

In the real world, it is speculated that people could be kept on ice for around 50 years at a time. The natural radioactive elements in the body decay and do genetic damage. Since the cells self repair mechanisms are frozen, the damage accumulates, and thawing them could result in them quickly dropping dead due to accumulated damage if left in the fridge for too long.

Thing is though - are the frozen watch paid when on ice? If one gets misplaced due to clerical error, are they due backpay when thawed?

 

[Hemdian]

Thing is though - are the frozen watch paid when on ice? If one gets misplaced due to clerical error, are they due backpay when thawed?

IMTU the Frozen Watch is voluntary. Full backpay is one of the carrots used to incentivise volunteers. So a clerical error (assuming they survive) is bonus.

 

[far-trader]

It's more a punishment detail imtu, unpaid. For what my TU idea is worth (...but then I get the feeling my TU Imperium has always been a little darker than most, and it just keeps getting darker.)

I'm gonna have to hunt up that earlier discussion in the morning, I'm pretty sure we covered it all pretty well (...and probably still didn't really decide anything ). It might be helpful to Marc if that is what he's working out at the moment.

 

[BlackBat242]

Here is one earlier thread: Some frozen watch ideas

 

[McPerth]

Thing is though - are the frozen watch paid when on ice? If one gets misplaced due to clerical error, are they due backpay when thawed?

We don't forget at least some Navy personel would have dependents that need their pay, so, keeping them one year (or more) without pay, may ruin their family. And that's no good for recruiting

Think about what whould happen to his family if a profesional member of the armed forces was kept a year without pay. Even if he's frozen, ther may be mortages to pay, children to care for, etc... And his pay is counted on for that...

 

[mike wightman]

One of the adventures that was advertised as being in the works towards the end of MT was for a squad to have been irradiated or something during a war a long time ago.

They lock themselves away in cold berths and come out every few centuries to see if there is a cure and accidentally happen to adventure during each major era of Imperial history.

I'll find the advert...

 

[whartung]

The question isn't duration, the question is survivability. The 1 point per 25 years is perhaps one indicator, but there's obviously some risk for even short durations (otherwise no need for the task roll upon thawing).

Ripley, for example, could have been an anomaly for lasting 70 years.

As for paying the frozen watch, unless it's Prison (ala "Demolition Man"), the person is in the service, doing their duty, and should get full pay, perhaps even more if the duty is considered at all hazardous (due to the process risks itself).

 

[robject]

That 1 point per 25 years sounds like it ought to be a delayed survival roll. Which might be cool. So being frozen might carry its own "aging" hazards.

Hmm, I like that idea.

 

[McPerth]

The question isn't duration, the question is survivability. The 1 point per 25 years is perhaps one indicator, but there's obviously some risk for even short durations (otherwise no need for the task roll upon thawing).

Ripley, for example, could have been an anomaly for lasting 70 years.

As nearly allways, it depends on which traveller version you play with.

I'm mostly a MT player, and the hazard of low passage in MT is quite low. You can receive wounds (that heal automatically) for several days, and even some permament damage, on a misshap, but the possibility of death is quite low, even if you have quite low physical stats.

Of course the risk is augmented if you have to do it as hasty task, so becoming hazardous...

In the case of frozen watch, IIRC, somewhere they specified that moe time was taken in 'freezing' the people in prevision to having to revive them as hasty task due to emergency situation.

The reverse is also true in the case of emergency low berth, as it is assumed that the 'freezing' must be hasty, and they are epected to be awaken as cautious task.

 

[Dragoner]

This is an interesting conversation.

Some thoughts:

"Freezing" is a euphemism for cold sleep, not to be taken literally, as people can't actually be frozen and revived (the ice formation destroys the cellular walls during expansion). I presume there is a chemical process, iirc there have been some studies done on the Weta of New Zealand:

"Mountain stone weta can survive being frozen for months in a state of suspended animation down to temperatures of -10°C. This is because their haemolymph (the insect equivalent of blood) contains special proteins that prevent ice from forming in their cells."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weta

Seems with the -1 per lowest stat, one could safely assume that 50 years (or 25 years given a 2 stat, as unlikely it would be for a character to have) would be a 100% safe, thought there would be at least two weeks recovery time. IMO, I would just automatically use endurance, -1 per 25 years after the first 25 years and with a week recovery time per point loss to recover.

 

[Garyius2003]

And there's also the "Fast Watch" variant, where troops are given Fast Drug until needed.

I decided that is why troops on some ships have barracks berthing. They are only there a few days or a week subjective time, and come out of it for final briefing and the operation.

It also keeps their skills fresh.

 

[HG_B]

This is an interesting conversation.

Some thoughts:

"Freezing" is a euphemism for cold sleep, not to be taken literally, as people can't actually be frozen and revived (the ice formation destroys the cellular walls during expansion). I presume there is a chemical process, iirc there have been some studies done on the Weta of New Zealand:

There exists an article in one of the early fanzines or supplements? That has a gravitic version that "freezes" motion down to the molecular level. Thus, no damage and the effective stopping of time.

 

[robject]

There exists an article in one of the early fanzines or supplements? That has a gravitic version that "freezes" motion down to the molecular level. Thus, no damage and the effective stopping of time.

Stasis berths. Post-Imperial tech.

 

[HG_B]

Stasis berths. Post-Imperial tech.

No, it was listed at ~TL13.

 

[Dragoner]

There exists an article in one of the early fanzines or supplements? That has a gravitic version that "freezes" motion down to the molecular level. Thus, no damage and the effective stopping of time.

Add nuclear damping to it, to suspend the atomic decay. There could be different versions for suspended animation, call the standard version the "Miller Process" (with the subsequent penalties) and the later gravtic/damped version the "Wiseman Process" (sans penalties but rarer and more $$$).

 

[HG_B]

Add nuclear damping to it, to suspend the atomic decay. There could be different versions for suspended animation, call the standard version the "Miller Process" (with the subsequent penalties) and the later gravtic/damped version the "Wiseman Process" (sans penalties but rarer and more $$$).

If you stop motion down to the atomic level, it would stop decay. I forget what the article detailed.