The Imperial Army

[aramis]

One interesting challenge for the "no standing army" philosophy is the initial Imperial setup in FFW. The section of the Spinward Marches that is mapped in the game would appear to be garrisoned by at least a corps, 4 brigades and 4 regiments of "troops" that are not colonial forces, huscarles or mercenaries before the Fifth Frontier War breaks out. The counter colour codes key tells us these are Imperial "regular units". These units can set up on any Imperial world.

not quite a full Army of regular troops... vs roughly three full armies worth of colonials, and then some.... and only a division of Marines...

The rest of the counter mix is reinforcements from outside the theater.

I find it plausible that the Regulars listed might in fact be Partly/mostly Marines... especially since all the regulars are grav-mobile TL14/15, and the term Troops is used instead of mention of the IA.

 

[McPerth]

But, if the planet has a number of "spinal" weapons disposed for planetary defense and these are the largest available (energy isn't going to be an issue like it is on a ship) and they are well protected (again, armoring them is not a space and weight issue here) against enemy fire, these become the first line of defense for the world.

Shame they are not represented in FFW, where your fleet can bomb planetary troops without any risk (as long as the SDB fleet has been dealt with)...

I'd expect the IA to be the ones manning these defenses along with providing troops in serious fortifications to protect them in the event the enemy lands ground forces on the planet to take them.

Think of the planets and satellites as extremely large non-jump capable star ships or orbitals. That makes fortress and planetary defense troops a big part of an Imperial Army.

But this would be more a planetary Army and forces duty than IA's.

And those Deep meson guns can be overcome by either standoff missile salvoes (see that bombardement is used to attack planets, and it mostly represents missile capacity) or waves of fighters to overload them (and probably targeting their sensors so that they become blind).

One sure duty for the IA planners in the deterrance role Kilemall mentiones would be to keep an updated track of those Deep Meson Sites just in case the planet revolts. And again making them know about it...

Absolutely! I reexamined LBB 4 and the MT character generation rules for "Mercenaries." These are really thin if you compare them to the debate on what the Imperial Army would look like. They are primarily for generating a character that is in a ground combat unit or support service for the same and the skills that can be acquired are largely those for small ground combat units.

For example, if you go strictly by the character generation rules, you cannot get one that is skilled in the use of larger energy weapons that a vehicle might mount unless you choose "Artillery" as an arm of service.
That means if you wanted to create a character that could operate a grav tank with a plasma or fusion gun you'd have to try and change combat arms between say, cavalry, and artillery to gain the skills necessary to be able to be the gunner on such a vehicle and the driver. (Yes, there is a slight chance with artillery you can get both).

If we examine CT/MT CharGen we find that:

Basic Chargen:

1. We're not told about if we're talking about Imperial or local Armies (but remember when it was published, at least for CT, there was no defined Imperium, and MT tried to mimick CT in CharGen).
2. In any case, promotion in Army is quite a sure thing (5+, 4+ if END is 7+), making it quite an officer heavy body. OTOH you're quite sure your career there will not be long (7+ to reenlist)

Point 2 may be read (IMHO, sure there may be other reads of it) that either:

1. tables are biased to make characters to be offiers
2. It's a cadre (Officer heavy) and reserves (short careers) army

Option 1 is not supported by the fact that commission is not so easy in other military services (Marines need 9+, Navy 10+), unless we asume army career is encouraged, something not supported by its high reenlistment roll.

Option 2, if we assume it talks about IA, makes it probably a HQ and Cadres (to avoid the word Huscarles that produced confusion) army.

Advanced CharGen:

Here we find the problem that it is clearly thought for planetary armies, as if you were in Imperial Army your TL should always be at least 14, so no mention to +1 in MOS skills for being TL 12+ (HiStellar in MT) would appear (I must admit the same happens with the Marines, and I guess we moslty assume it is thought for Imperial, not colonial, ones).

IMHO it lacks a roll to see if you are in Imperial or Colonial service...

It is less officer heavy (though if your stats are right, you have about 1/9 probability to become officer per year), and it equals possibilities for commission in Army and Marines.

There is no category or means to generate a character skilled in operating planetary defense systems unless you extend these from the Imperial Navy. This would require the "Army" character to gain skills in things like "Gunnery" (cascades to screens, spinal weapons, turret weapons) and sensor ops or computer.

See that in MT COACC mans those facilities (after all it's orbital defense). In COACC book CharGen there's the assignment of base defense and you can gain the skill to man those deep meson guns.

 

[jec10]

And just curious, what use do you give Porozlo Armies once sent forward?

I mean, the will not make any difference against any Zhodani resolved offensive, as they will be bombed to destruction before being mopped up by troops, but, if lost, they will be sorely missed when you make your counteroffensive latter in the game.

I rather use the AsDron to retreat the troops (all of them, Imperial and Colonial Corps and Merc División) in Efate to make it available for the counteroffensive. Until the Imperials have fleet reinforcements and can go on counterofensive, troops are just sitting ducks in "first line".

Those troops in Efatw won't make any difference there if the Zhodani break their Space/DSB defenses, as they will be destroyed by bombing, along Efate's battalions and it will be taken, and if the space/SDB defenses are not broken, tropos are not needed there.

That's what I meant when I said the Army (be it Imperial or Colonial) is an ofensive tool.

We should split off a thread for FFW tactics - everybody does it differently!

I always assign the regular Imperial Assault ron to Efate on setup. That way I can marry the regular corps and mercenary division on Efate to a smallish fleet and have an offensive weapon to use in the early game when the Outworld Coalition is storming in. I can send it against the Vargr, for instance, and if I'm lucky/good can pick up some VPs while nullifying their thrust. There is no way I leave them on Efate to be bottled up and destroyed.

Meanwhile the colonial assault ron is shuttling forward the colonial troops and then regulars to vulnerable higher TL worlds around Rhylanor. Those worlds are usually vital for me to stop an automatic Outworld Coalition victory and thereby get to the mid-game when regular Imperial reinforcements start to make a difference.

And hopefully my cruiser ron force has broken through to the Zhodani rear where they can drop the 4518th/Marines on some poorly defended worlds and pick up some easy VPs. Scouts support them with their good ground attack ratings.

And if I'm feeling really gamey I place the TL16 mercenary force on a gas giant-less system the Swordies need to advance deeper into Lanth. Due to a quirk in the rules they can't destroy it.

 

[Whipsnade]

We should split off a thread for FFW tactics - everybody does it differently!

A FFW tactics thread would be interesting, but I don't know about everybody doing it differently because I do the four things you mention!

 

[kilemall]

Enoki, all that assumes clear targeting on the part of the PDs- I would assume something more like a huge amount of penaids and chaff confusing ground fire coupled with a large aerospace/grav tank contingent (the higher firepower of the jump troop valuation).

The regular armies land with transports, so nothing special about dealing with them, other then the numbers lost making that transit would likely be higher given less countermeasures on the approach.

Even so, an Imperium single outpost was rated at killing entire landing Army units 33% of the time, Jump troops 16% of the time. PDs at the same rate, but of course the more PD stacked the higher chance of annihilating everything.

World defense at 50% for Army destruction, 33% for Jump.

Deep meson sites of course are the main difference between TL11 and TL15 PD, but I don't know that they are that much of a factor for small highly specialized units.

In the Imperium game, normally one WOULD clear away PD with bombardment to get armies down, just so you didn't lose time opportunity of having to rebuild the army again, by which time the war could be over, not to mention the greater efficiency of using the same army in being against multiple targets.

On the other hand, risking one jump troop against an undefended outpost was typically a 16% failure rate, and sure beat risking the whole fleet, including cruisers and battleships that might take years to replace.

If you could blow up an outpost and strand armies that is fine, but if you want an outpost down there too you have to root them out.

And of course, with worlds there is no substitute for capture and outpost placement to flip ownership long term.

It was all context and resources and value as to whether the fleet, the army or the target world was most valuable to preserve or risk.

 

[kilemall]

Well, obviously nobody can stop you from drawing what conclusions you will from it.

But for me, the 2,000 years that separate the game from 1106 are enough to give me pause in thinking it's very useful for modeling the army of the Third Imperium.

It would be like finding a Roman tactical manual and trying to model the U.S. Army.

West Point still teaches Cannae as the perfect battle of enveloped annihilation, and the Army's highest practitioners seek to emulate it even though we use 'higher TL'.

And I would say the Romans faced planetary defenses- with Archimedes' Claw, catapults and possibly greek fire. Tractors missiles and plasma guns?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claw_of_Archimedes

Oh, and initially US Army organization WAS by Legion- a flexible organization, the sublegions reminds one of expeditionary brigades today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legion_of_the_United_States

 

[flykiller]

... instead of trying to view the "imperial army" all at once, perhaps a short and limited game illustrating how it would be used would 1) demonstrate the utility of ground forces and 2) be fun.

the navy is having trouble dealing with an underground meson gun site and has sent a company of troops to try and infiltrate it. any interest?

 

[atpollard]

... instead of trying to view the "imperial army" all at once, perhaps a short and limited game illustrating how it would be used would 1) demonstrate the utility of ground forces and 2) be fun.

the navy is having trouble dealing with an underground meson gun site and has sent a company of troops to try and infiltrate it. any interest?

Not me.
I just spent over 2 years in PbP having a 4 man team deal with it.

 

[flykiller]

Not me. I just spent over 2 years in PbP having a 4 man team deal with it.

(laugh) well I was thinking "army", not "days of our lives" ....

 

[kilemall]

... instead of trying to view the "imperial army" all at once, perhaps a short and limited game illustrating how it would be used would 1) demonstrate the utility of ground forces and 2) be fun.

the navy is having trouble dealing with an underground meson gun site and has sent a company of troops to try and infiltrate it. any interest?

The Meson Guns of Navarone?

 

[flykiller]

The Meson Guns of Navarone?

never saw the movie. but sounds cool.

the longest day. "you mean ... we came all this way ... for nuthin'?"

 

[Enoki]

The Meson Guns of Navarone?

The Guns of Rhylanor is more like it...