The Imperial Corridor Fleet

[savage]

There is some interest, apparently

Very appreciated but gaming products without Canon approval don't last long. The only option is to create your own Canon, as some have done. Let's face it DG was the last group to do work in Corridor sector.

Also, Lemish is mentioned in that element of the Occupation. Rapid Repo is about a snatch and grab on Depot and provides a bit of information a few maps. It is in MT Journal as mentioned earlier.

 

[LeperColony]

That was the impetus for this discussion, a remark of mine that questioned if the 16 regular fleets stationed in Corridor were really needed to keep the Ravening Vargr (tm) at bay. If they are, only the four-fleet Corridor Fleet is a reaction force; if they're not, all 20 fleets are potential reinforcements (Though perhaps doctrine could be to leave behind several fleets to keep the Vargr at bay -- it's not a question of either/or; Sector Command could send off fewer than all 16). GDW appear to go with them being necessary, which I tend to doubt very much is actually "realistic"^*.

^* Quotation marks around 'realistic' to indicate that it's a fictional reality. But fictional or not, I would really prefer that it made sense to me. ​

If the Vargr are such a concern (and although it seems like they shouldn't be, we have to accept that somehow they are), then would it follow that the Reserve and Colonial forces are above average? For that matter, are there 16 Reserve Fleets in Corridor? Do local worlds spend more on defense?

I've often wondered why inner-imperial worlds bother much with a navy (some presence is needed for various functions, to be sure), but those on a hostile border would have a strong incentive to maintain an independent defense force.

 

[Vladika]

If the Vargr are such a concern (and although it seems like they shouldn't be, we have to accept that somehow they are), then would it follow that the Reserve and Colonial forces are above average? For that matter, are there 16 Reserve Fleets in Corridor? Do local worlds spend more on defense?

I would think that those 20 Fleets, Imperial, Reserve and Colonial, Could destroy the Vargr as a major star-faring race should they act in convert and together. The Vargr present no major threat to the Imperium, just a major annoyance.

I've often wondered why inner-imperial worlds bother much with a navy (some presence is needed for various functions, to be sure), but those on a hostile border would have a strong incentive to maintain an independent defense force.

Few military professionals will maintain a bulk of their forces forward during peacetime. History has continually shown the importance of a strong, protected, reserve. Placing the bulk of forces forward IN TIME OF PEACE invites "surprise" attacks from potential foes.

Two cases in point:

1) Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor (US lost the bulk of it's KNOWN Pacific Fleet force, Carriers being an unknown factor at that time.)
2) German attack on Soviet Russia (Russians lost the bulk of their standing armies.)

In both cases it was Obsolescent equipment that was lost and by having sufficient depth of forces, each recovered nicely.

During TIME OF WAR deployment is usually "2 up, 1 back".

 

[rancke]

I would think that those 20 Fleets, Imperial, Reserve and Colonial, Could destroy the Vargr as a major star-faring race should they act in convert and together. The Vargr present no major threat to the Imperium, just a major annoyance.

It's 20 regular fleets. In addition to that are the reserve fleets, nine in all, one per subsector (unless they too are mostly doubled up). 'Colonial' is an ambiguous term as it's sometimes applied to the planetary navies and sometimes to the Imperial subsector forces too (i.e. the Imperial subsector forces are both 'Imperial' and 'colonial'). If you mean planetary navies, there are quite a few high-tech, high-population worlds that would have navies every bit as powerful as several Imperial fleets put together (though probably only a small part of that would be jump-capable). As for the reserve fleets, we have very little information on just how big and powerful they are. They could be the Imperial ragtag and bobtail, low-tech (lower-than-TL15 that is) and ill-trained, or they could be strong supportive elements. We just don't know.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

It's 20 regular fleets. In addition to that are the reserve fleets, nine in all, one per subsector (unless they too are mostly doubled up). 'Colonial' is an ambiguous term as it's sometimes applied to the planetary navies and sometimes to the Imperial subsector forces too (i.e. the Imperial subsector forces are both 'Imperial' and 'colonial'). If you mean planetary navies, there are quite a few high-tech, high-population worlds that would have navies every bit as powerful as several Imperial fleets put together (though probably only a small part of that would be jump-capable). As for the reserve fleets, we have very little information on just how big and powerful they are. They could be the Imperial ragtag and bobtail, low-tech (lower-than-TL15 that is) and ill-trained, or they could be strong supportive elements. We just don't know.
Hans

Then the Vargr are:toast:. Any time the Imperium feels like sending them to the "Puppy Pound" they are already on the way.:devil:

 

[savage]

Fleets

There is a solo game in a Journal or Challenge of a Scout finding a world invaded by the Vargr. This did not show an overwhelming force but a definite presence greater than the Imperium.

Planetary navies and Reserve fleets we're mentioned in Rebellion (an old topic) but not clearly designed in CT and MT. :rofl: Gee thanks, right? The MgT view is also disappointing and inadequate. GT probably did not touch on it well. I'd have to go back and look. Also remember, the Imperium patrolled Brinn space as well on the other side of the rift. Humaniti was determined to keep the Brinn confined. Vland probably kept Humaniti from exterminating them completely.

One Digest book did get into a mothball fleet discussion, in a different sector, during the Rebellion.

 

[Drakon]

One Digest book did get into a mothball fleet discussion, in a different sector, during the Rebellion.

Sadly, other than the MT Ship Operations Manual for a Beowulf, I don't have access to any of the DG products. I am beginning to look at the military presence on Lemish.

The few excerps I have found have not been encouraging. There is one bit

The planetary governor fervently declared his unwillingness to pay protection money to Vargr corsairs. In retaliation, the Vargr mustered a fleet and sacked the planet, specifically concentrating their attacks on the port and manuf acturing complexes. The planet's technology dropped three levels. The shipyards were totally destroyed, and the other port facilities were barely functional after the attack.
At present, rebuilding efforts are in progress, but the disruption of interstellar trade in the sector has prevented the inhabitants from getting crucial supplies. Remnants of the Vargr fleet continue to patrol the system, and travellers are advised to avoid Lemish if possible. -cor TD 18

Elsewhere in the worldbuilding thread, I declared that the baron of Lemish is also planetary governor. Which means I may have will have(?) screwed up badly.

 

[rancke]

The few excerps I have found have not been encouraging. There is one bit

The planetary governor fervently declared his unwillingness to pay protection money to Vargr corsairs. In retaliation, the Vargr mustered a fleet and sacked the planet, specifically concentrating their attacks on the port and manuf acturing complexes. The planet's technology dropped three levels. The shipyards were totally destroyed, and the other port facilities were barely functional after the attack.

At present, rebuilding efforts are in progress, but the disruption of interstellar trade in the sector has prevented the inhabitants from getting crucial supplies. Remnants of the Vargr fleet continue to patrol the system, and travellers are advised to avoid Lemish if possible. -cor TD 18

That one could actually fly, because Lemish has a population of only one million people, so it's possible for a band of Vargr corsairs to collect a fleet capable of defeating whatever system defenses Lemish could afford.

But take a world like Kukish. It has a population of 8 billion people and a TL of 15 with a trade clasification of In. That gives it a GWP of 281.6 trillion credits. That means that if its naval budget is the 3% that is average for the Imperium (and not above the average as you might expect it to be), it has a naval expenditure of 8.448 trillion credits, of which 30% goes to the Imperium¹. That means it has a military budget of 5.9 trillion credits, of which 40% goes to its army and 60% to its navy, for a final naval budget of 3.548 trillion credits. That translates to a system defense force of 35 trillion credit squadrons and a little bit over.

But that's not all. Those 30% that it paid to the Imperium presumably used to be paid mostly in kind, in the form of maintaining Imperial warships and building peacetime replacements for retiring ships. Now that the Imperial ships have been sent off, Khukish no longer has to maintain them and it probably won't be eager to turn over any of the ships it is in the process of building. A trickle of new cruisers and battleships will be finished in the following months and years. And the capacity freed up from maintaining two fleets worth of cruisers and battleships can immediately be put to building new ships. What kind of ships is a matter of conjecture. 5000T ships that can be finished fast or battleships that will take longer to finish? It could be argued either way.

But that's not all. That 3% of GWP spending is for peacetime with big beefy Imperial fleets around to protect them. Now the fleets are gone and the Ravening Vargr are on the rampage. Time to go on a war footing if ever there was. That means a quintupling of the military spending from 3% to 15% -- or possibly just a tripling to 10% if the Vargr aren't all that frightening. How much of that extra budget goes to the navy is another question, but I think it would be more than 60%.


Hans

 

[savage]

Sadly, other than the MT Ship Operations Manual for a Beowulf, I don't have access to any of the DG products. I am beginning to look at the military presence on Lemish.

The few excerps I have found have not been encouraging. There is one bit
Elsewhere in the worldbuilding thread, I declared that the baron of Lemish is also planetary governor. Which means I may have will have(?) screwed up badly.

Planetary Governor is probably a paid bureaucrat. In 3I nobility tried separating itself from the Day to Day work and focus on growing holding, etc. That is a generalization. There is T20 Grand Fleet or MgT Sector Fleet don't buy both. SF is really a regurgitation. Also consider buying Marc's MT CDrom.

"A sector fleet contains about 1000 ships not including tankers and logistics." " nearly 500 to its 1000 ships are assigned to Subsector Fleets"
Also
-the cost of reserve fleets are too high so most older ships are in mothballs with skeleton crews ready for reactivation.
-Corridor campaigns ended before the civil war and lasted 130 years (210-348). Corridor Fleet remains one of the most active...

 

[savage]

That one could actually fly, because Lemish has a population of only one million people, so it's possible for a band of Vargr corsairs to collect a fleet capable of defeating whatever system defenses Lemish could afford.

But that's not all. That 3% of GWP spending is for peacetime with big beefy Imperial fleets around to protect them. Now the fleets are gone and the Ravening Vargr are on the rampage. Time to go on a war footing if ever there was. That means a quintupling of the military spending from 3% to 15% -- or possibly just a tripling to 10% if the Vargr aren't all that frightening. How much of that extra budget goes to the navy is another question, but I think it would be more than 60%.


Hans

1 million killed. There should be more sophonts.

Normally I completely agree but there is some indicators that the spending was above 3%. This is one of the most active fleets. I'm certain worlds would be encouraged to have non-jump planetary defense ships.

 

[Drakon]

That one could actually fly, because Lemish has a population of only one million people, so it's possible for a band of Vargr corsairs to collect a fleet capable of defeating whatever system defenses Lemish could afford.

Gee, thanks. I would like to discuss what the 1 million inhabitants of this tech level 12, Non-Industrial Farming planet could afford.

But that's not all. That 3% of GWP spending is for peacetime with big beefy Imperial fleets around to protect them. Now the fleets are gone and the Ravening Vargr are on the rampage. Time to go on a war footing if ever there was. That means a quintupling of the military spending from 3% to 15% -- or possibly just a tripling to 10% if the Vargr aren't all that frightening. How much of that extra budget goes to the navy is another question, but I think it would be more than 60%.


Hans

You have the army to defend against a land invasion, in case the Vargr make landfall? Why can't you use militia instead of a standing army? Or is the army budget essentially for this militia?

 

[Drakon]

Planetary Governor is probably a paid bureaucrat. In 3I nobility tried separating itself from the Day to Day work and focus on growing holding, etc. That is a generalization.

In the case of Lemish (at least as I see it) because there are only a million folks, Lemish is an Imperial colony. With a civil service bureaucracy for a government, the Imperial representative would act as colonial governor. While there is probably a Prime Minister or functionary who does the day to day work, the baron is ultimately responsible. The duke is busy with the whole subsector, the baron answer to him for any issues involving Lemish and the system it is in.

Plus, the character as constructed so far, has a hostility toward uselessness. Coming from an naval enlisted background, he's had a general snobbishness against the nobility, and now, despite having no clue what he is doing, is trying to do the job himself and earn his pay. Hijinx ensue.

There is T20 Grand Fleet or MgT Sector Fleet don't buy both. SF is really a regurgitation. Also consider buying Marc's MT CDrom.

Plan to buy the MT CD. I got both Aprocrypha disks for christmas, and recently rediscovered Out of the Darkness. I have MgT Sector Fleet but the only T20 I have is the player's handbook.

 

[rancke]

In the case of Lemish (at least as I see it) because there are only a million folks, Lemish is an Imperial colony.

Lemish is not a captive government. That makes it a sovereign member world, not a colony.

With a civil service bureaucracy for a government, the Imperial representative would act as colonial governor.

As a figurehead that may work. As an "Imperial Advisor" (whose advice the sovereign government had damn well better heed) it might work (though the powerful member worlds might not be pleased with such a precedence). But if a person appointed from outside the system has real formal power, it's a captive government.

Caveat: I don't know how Marc Miller intends to retcon the relationship between Imperial nobles and member worlds. But until he does¹, I'm going with the role akin to that of an ombudsman GT:Nobles assign to Imperial high nobles. YMM, of course, V.

¹ And in my own TU also after he does.​

While there is probably a Prime Minister or functionary who does the day to day work, the baron is ultimately responsible. The duke is busy with the whole subsector, the baron answer to him for any issues involving Lemish and the system it is in.

IMO there's going to be a government chosen one way or another by the locals that, at the very least, is formally responsible for their own affairs. That's what not being a captive government means².

² Yes, OK, I admit it, there are scores and hundreds of low-population worlds (including a number with writeups) with ostensibly non-captive governments where the whole sovereign people notion makes very little sense or explicitly does not apply. But leaving low-population worlds aside, a million people is actually a viable independent population so to me my "don't fix it if it isn't broken" principle applies.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

Gee, thanks. I would like to discuss what the 1 million inhabitants of this tech level 12, Non-Industrial Farming planet could afford.

According to Striker, a TL12 world with Ag and Ni trade codes has a per capita income of Cr16,000 * x 1.2 x 0.8 = Cr15,360.

A population multiplier of 1 can mean anything from 1,000,000 to 1,999,999. Let's call it 1.9 million inhabitants for a GWP of MCr29,184.

The average peacetime military expenditure of Imperial worlds is 3%, but if you believe the people of Lemish is properly motivated by fear of Vargr, an expenditure of 10% is possible. That would be a military tax figure of MCr2,918.

Of this, 30% goes to the Imperium, leaving 2,043 for Lemish.

That figure is split between the army and the navy in whatever proportion seems good to the Lemishian government. According to Striker, it averages 40% for the army on worlds with breathable atmosphere. Also note that planetary defenses (orbital fortresses is my guess) are jointly funded by the army and the navy.

Anyway, if you go with those 60% for the navy the naval budget would be MCr1,226 per year. With the very crude maintenance rule from TCS that means a fleet totalling an initial cost of MCr12,257 if you buy local TL12 vessels.

You have the army to defend against a land invasion, in case the Vargr make landfall? Why can't you use militia instead of a standing army? Or is the army budget essentially for this militia?

It's what they have to spend on an army. What exactly they spend it on is not defined. GT:Ground Forces has some rules for number of 'battalion equivalents' a world can afford and what different kinds of troops cost in BEs. I think they could be adapted to work with these other rules, but I haven't gotten around to trying and could be wrong.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

Anyway, if you go with those 60% for the navy the naval budget would be MCr1,226 per year. With the very crude maintenance rule from TCS that means a fleet totalling an initial cost of MCr12,257 if you buy local TL12 vessels.

Why would they want local TL 12 vessels? Shouldn't there be plenty of surplus TL 13 and 14 former Imperial Navy ships? Or for that matter, High Tech worlds with economies based around weapons sales?

I remember reading an article recently about billions of dollars of military gear, including heavy vehicles, going to municipal police departments at cut rate prices, if not for nothing.

 

[rancke]

Why would they want local TL 12 vessels? Shouldn't there be plenty of surplus TL 13 and 14 former Imperial Navy ships?

They might buy TL 13 or 14 or 15 ships. Their TL12 credits would be subject to an unfavorable exchange rate and maintnance costs are doubled for imported equipment. For a fleet composed entirely of TL15 vessels they'd be able to maintain one worth MCr4,290, roughly one third the size of the TL12 fleet. I don't think TL15 ships are three times better than TL12 ships.

Also, they'd need to export enough local goods to cover the cost of the foreign goods.


Hans

 

[LeperColony]

They might buy TL 13 or 14 or 15 ships. Their TL12 credits would be subject to an unfavorable exchange rate and maintnance costs are doubled for imported equipment.

Also, they'd need to export enough local goods to cover the cost of the foreign goods.


Hans

Which is the more effective option? A somewhat smaller (assuming the surplus ships do cost more. I understand the exchange rate issue, but ships deemed surplus by the Imperium or by more advanced worlds should be available at a discount) but more advanced fleet, or a larger native force?

 

[rancke]

Which is the more effective option? A somewhat smaller (assuming the surplus ships do cost more. I understand the exchange rate issue, but ships deemed surplus by the Imperium or by more advanced worlds should be available at a discount) but more advanced fleet, or a larger native force?

Surplus ships should definitely be cheaper, but the maintenance cost would be the same as (or worse than) new ships. It's the maintenance costs that is the big budget item.

But hey, that's the sort of thing to ask their Imperial noble for advice about.


Hans

 

[savage]

Surplus ships should definitely be cheaper, but the maintenance cost would be the same as (or worse than) new ships. It's the maintenance costs that is the big budget item.


Hans

Absolutely worst. It's bang for the buck. That is why the US navy had the battleships in mothball / reserve fleet status and eventually museum ships.

 

[LeperColony]

Surplus ships should definitely be cheaper, but the maintenance cost would be the same as (or worse than) new ships. It's the maintenance costs that is the big budget item.

But hey, that's the sort of thing to ask their Imperial noble for advice about.


Hans

Also, maintenance is a longer term issue. If the Vargr threat is immediate and (hopefully) temporary, it might make sense to invest in a force you don't plan to keep permanently.